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Face coverings compulsory on public transport in England from 15 June

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6Gman

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I think we need to be getting back to 'normal' as soon as possible, and I think wearing face masks is a part of getting back to normal, if it's means it makes people feel safer around others, and helps stop the spread, even if it possibly only a small help.

Of course I do understand the concern about policing this. It can lead to more confrontation between transport staff and the lovely public, which we want to avoid, especially now.

If mask wearing means we can return to leisure rail travel sooner then I'm all for it!
 
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AM9

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I've read that the disposable face coverings are only effective for half an hour before they require replacing. So anyone on a long journey needs a bag of them.
a) how do you know exactly which type of mask made with what materials were involved in arriving at this opinion?
b) do you know how credible and verifiable that claim is?
 

Scrotnig

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The shops reopening was announced to deflect attention from Cummings. People then questioned if it was a good idea, and so masks are now the solution to a problem we wouldn't have if the government did things properly.
A bit off topic but the shops plan was always mooted for 15th June, just as hospitality is currently mooted for 4th July.

Yes they probably timed the official confirmation to deflect attention but the basic timing was already planned.
 

flymo

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Anecdote is not the same as data.

Well anecdotally, here it works, the data shows that too.

Here we have no active cases and of our 24 deaths 20 were in one care home, which has been shut down by the government. No masks are compulsory here. It doesn't prove anything.
Masks are not compulsory here either, they have helped lower the infection rate.

The Chinese police on the streets of Hong Kong might also be the reason.

Th HK Police force do not enforce anything. Masks are not compulsory

There is no evidence that masks stop you contracting Covid, and there is only circumstantial evidence that masks stop you spreading Covid.
Masks will not 100% stop contraction or infection, nobody has ever said that. They do significantly help reduce the spread, we've see real life proof here.
 

sheff1

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The newspaper method is very effective at enforcing anything at all on buses.

That is, driver sees something wrong, shouts out what the thing that's wrong is, stops the engine, gets out the Sun (other gutter rags are available) and waits for other passengers to resolve the issue.

The Vigilante State seems to have no shortage of supporters.
 

RomeoCharlie71

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@flymo The only way you would be able to prove your point is turn the clock back 3 months and see what happens if nobody at all wore face coverings.
 

Tetchytyke

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They do significantly help reduce the spread, we've see real life proof here.

However other countries which mandated their use have had bigger contraction rates. New Zealand, which doesn't enforce the use of masks, has a very low contraction rate. Anecdote isn't data and correlation doesn't prove causation.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...ead-symptoms-usa-outbreak-china-a9359336.html is an interesting article (too much to copy, I'm on a phone).

If masks are not tight enough, or not fitted correctly, the virus particles just get forced out the sides instead, so you just have a sideways aerosol effect instead of a forward one.

I don't begrudge anyone wearing one if it makes them feel better, but there's no evidence that they stop anything.

The whole announcement by the government is purely political.

A bit off topic but the shops plan was always mooted for 15th June, just as hospitality is currently mooted for 4th July.

I don't doubt that, but pressing on regardless of the death and contraction rates was purely to distract from Cummings.

If you have to force people to wear face masks then, really, you're not ready to come out of lockdown.
 

Whistler40145

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As everyone will be denied travel unless wearing a face mask, what happens on long train journeys e.g. London to Glasgow and you need
liquid refreshments, does this mean you've to spend the whole journey without?
 

AM9

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As everyone will be denied travel unless wearing a face mask, what happens on long train journeys e.g. London to Glasgow and you need
liquid refreshments, does this mean you've to spend the whole journey without?
There's no point in fretting about it until you need to make such a journey.
 

SouthEastBuses

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What do you mean by that?

It was a reply to this message by Starmill:

"They don't need to work always though do they? Working 60% of the time has a very significant downward effect on the reproduction rate of the virus. Perfection is unnecessary."

Meaning that I agree with him that perfection is unnecessary, by saying indeed that nobody is perfect.
 

ashkeba

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There is also the issue of the deaf and hard of hearing who rely on lip-reading and other facial cues. All these will be obscured by a face covering

Therefore, this will be discrimatory to them
How about all railway public-facing staff to learn a bit of sign language or at least carry something capable of displaying text messages? It'll be about 40 years too late but maybe at least something good can come from this!
 

ashkeba

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https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...ead-symptoms-usa-outbreak-china-a9359336.html is an interesting article (too much to copy, I'm on a phone).

If masks are not tight enough, or not fitted correctly, the virus particles just get forced out the sides instead, so you just have a sideways aerosol effect instead of a forward one.
Newspaper reports of specific contrived examples of solid masks tight at the front and not at the edges don't really rebut the claimed reduction of range very well. I'm sure it is possible to botch a mask into a sideways spray cannon, but how many of the population will actually do that instead of use it goodly enough?
 

Journeyman

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Heritage railways will probably also require them when they reopen.

In which case, I won't visit them. There's absolutely no way I'd find that experience enjoyable, quite apart from it being completely pointless anyway.

We need to get back to normal, and if face masks help do it, then I'm all for it.

This is what worries me - that fear and paranoia will lead to face masks becoming normal. Think about that for a minute - what an utterly miserable, depressing thought. Loads of the pointless security theatre introduced after 9/11 is still with us nearly 20 years later, and if we go down this road, it won't go away any time soon.
 

sheff1

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We need to get back to normal, and if face masks help do it, then I'm all for it.

How exactly is forcing someone to wear a face mask if they wish to travel further than walking distance 'getting back to normal' ?
 

ashkeba

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Try running water through a cloth under your kitchen sink. See how the vast majority travels straight through? Now imagine a sneeze at 6-8m/s. Similar result.
I think you should do this! Please note especially how the speed of the water is reduced by even a small gap between the faucet mouth and the cloth. That reduction in water speed suggests a reduction in range of transmission in virusy terms and that is what this is about.

Thank you for suggesting an excellent demonstration of the effect of face coverings!
 

johnnychips

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How about all railway public-facing staff to learn a bit of sign language or at least carry something capable of displaying text messages? It'll be about 40 years too late but maybe at least something good can come from this!
I’m certainly not an expert, but I do work at a deaf college, so just one or two observations:

- many signs are quite similar and do require looking at the lips (which would be impossible with a mask) and context (which wouldn’t)
- these days, many deaf people have cochlear implants, which mean they can hear something to a range of just mumbled tones to almost perfect clarity. Lip reading helps their understanding.
- deaf people may think they are speaking clearly, but sometimes aren’t, in which case the guard would be assisted by looking at their lips
- some deaf people do not speak at all. However, younger ones would be able to rattle off a text very quickly and show it the guard if necessary
- from the original quote: sign language is like any other - the older you get, the harder it is to learn! However, our college has done things like courses with the fire brigade so they can sign questions like ‘is anybody else here?’, ‘are you hurt?’ etc.
 

DaveHarries

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Having been issued with a covering my my employer and seen myself in a mirror I frankly think I look like (insert something unbroadcastable) wearing it. Would make resigning my job worthwhile unless I can find one that doesn't make me look a right idiot. TBH I would far rather my employer - a vehicle hire firm - will go back to sending two drivers per job.

Dave
 

alex397

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How exactly is forcing someone to wear a face mask if they wish to travel further than walking distance 'getting back to normal' ?

Well this virus isn't going away any time soon, and we need to reopen our society before our economy completely collapses. If using face masks helps reduce the infection rate in areas where social distancing is difficult, such as public transport, then it can help us return to normal. There are of course mixed views on the effectiveness of face masks, but if they help just a little bit than it's worth it. Also, some people may feel better going out and about with a mask rather than without.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I've just asked the question on social media, but let's try it here. If masks are so good at stopping the spread of the virus, why is social distancing still going to be applied?

Because masks reduce the likelihood of transmission without stopping it completely. Social distancing also reduces the likelihood of transmission without stopping it completely. Put the two together and you reduce the likelihood of transmission by more than if you only apply one of them.
 

Starmill

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I really don't understand why people are against the forced use of face masks on public transport.
Prejudice, laziness and selfishness. It is very unlikely that there are other reasons.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Anecdote is not the same as data.

No, but an anecdote usually refers to one or two people. When you have an entire area like Hong Kong that has an extremely high population density and close links with China - both of which would be expected to lead to very high virus rates, and which actually has very low rates, then that starts to look like good evidence that they are doing something right that we aren't.

Here we have no active cases and of our 24 deaths 20 were in one care home, which has been shut down by the government. No masks are compulsory here. It doesn't prove anything.

The Isle of Man is a small, and somewhat isolated, island. That by itself gives a fair degree of protection.

The Chinese police on the streets of Hong Kong might also be the reason.

Interesting. How do you think Chinese police on the streets of Hong Kong are stopping the virus from spreading? Are they perhaps identifying and arresting any particles of the virus they find? ;)

There is no evidence that masks stop you contracting Covid, and there is only circumstantial evidence that masks stop you spreading Covid.

There is growing evidence that masks stop you spreading (not contracting) Covid.
 

scrapy

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According to the BBC it will be enforced by the transport operators who will issue the fines in a similar way they issue fines to those without tickets. BTP have said they will only enforce as a last resort. Aside from the issue that only courts can issue fines, many operators aren't currently enforcing penalty fare schemes for social distancing reasons, so how are they going to do this? Surely absolutely unworkable.

Are we going to have Northern having groups of Carlisle security teams who will decend on somebody the second they arrive on station property without a mask?
 

xc170

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So the lockdown is being reviewed every three week, how frequently is this face covering joke going to be reviewed?

I can see it being a big thing for the first few weeks with everyone wearing face coverings and then quietly being forgotten about.
 

Butts

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Because masks reduce the likelihood of transmission without stopping it completely. Social distancing also reduces the likelihood of transmission without stopping it completely. Put the two together and you reduce the likelihood of transmission by more than if you only apply one of them.

Could you quantify the percentage reduction each measure results in both individually and collectively with regard to the reduction in transmission.

IE is it 5% less with one and 10% with two ?

If the figures are negligible, then so are the measures adopted ?
 

nedchester

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In which case, I won't visit them. There's absolutely no way I'd find that experience enjoyable, quite apart from it being completely pointless anyway.



This is what worries me - that fear and paranoia will lead to face masks becoming normal. Think about that for a minute - what an utterly miserable, depressing thought. Loads of the pointless security theatre introduced after 9/11 is still with us nearly 20 years later, and if we go down this road, it won't go away any time soon.

There’s the worry. Those in control of these things who are scared of their own shadow won’t want to lift restrictions until it’s 100% safe (clue: it’s never 100% safe)

I’d like to think that by the autumn they won’t be necessary.
 

nedchester

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According to the BBC it will be enforced by the transport operators who will issue the fines in a similar way they issue fines to those without tickets. BTP have said they will only enforce as a last resort. Aside from the issue that only courts can issue fines, many operators aren't currently enforcing penalty fare schemes for social distancing reasons, so how are they going to do this? Surely absolutely unworkable.

Are we going to have Northern having groups of Carlisle security teams who will decend on somebody the second they arrive on station property without a mask?

Merseyrail’s “Response” thugs will be up for this I suspect........
 
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