Face coverings compulsory on public transport in England from 15 June

[Journeyman]

Fortunately I have a car, but even with one I am missing the railway and would rather be able to use it with a mask than not be able to use it, and I'd feel even more strongly on that were I not a car owner.

I won't use the railways again until the requirement for masks is dropped.

 

[sjpowermac]

Fortunately I have a car, but even with one I am missing the railway and would rather be able to use it with a mask than not be able to use it, and I'd feel even more strongly on that were I not a car owner.

I can’t drive and I’m really hoping that there is some payback for masks in terms of increase capacity being released on the network.

 

[43066]

So is your suggestion that I rock up at the station on 15th June without a mask?

Or that I call my manager and say ‘I’m sorry but I’m not coming in today because I’m afraid that wearing a mask will one day lead to me having to wear a burqa’?

Perhaps I could have used a similar argument when I worked in retail and had to wear a uniform.

So, what would you advise on June 15th?

My approach will be to carry one with me, but not wear it by default.

If I’m asked to put it on by a police officer I will have no choice but to do so.

If I’m asked to put it on by someone not in authority, I will tell them to Foxtrot Oscar.

If I’m told to wear it at work I’ll say it’s uncomfortable and distracting, and I cannot perform my safety critical role while wearing it.

Wearing a uniform (or any other dress code) is very different to a requirement to wear a mask - facial expressions are a fundamental part of human interaction.

I have been, and am still. I'm deeply troubled by the lack of any apparent political opposition too [1]. Have any one of the 650 MPs made any comment against masks, or indeed pretty much anything else apart from the quarantine measures?


[1] Sufficiently so that I'm about to resign my membership of the Labour party over precisely this issue, when I get around to writing the letter in the next few days. Interestingly, the last time I resigned from the Labour party (around 2008) was over civil liberties issues too. Perhaps I need to remember this time that they're not very good at it!

No opposition from any MPs as far as I can tell. We no longer seem to have a functioning parliament! Totally agreed on the need for an effective opposition.

Perhaps we are not so far apart on this issue after all. I voted for the present government - how do you think I feel !!!

 

[43066]

Labour are not a party of civil liberties, far from it; they are the party of the nanny state. They never have been and never will be. Boris is a libertarian and you can be sure he won't do more than he needs to.

I heard on the grapevine ( ) that the reason masks aren't going into the Coronavirus (Restrictions) Regulations 2020 is that Boris wouldn't let them.

If that’s the case, good for him.

Although I’m hugely disappointed by his handling of the current crisis. His government no longer resembles anything approaching libertarian (let alone liberal) - and is fast becoming the antithesis of what a conservative government ought to be.

 

[43066]

I also think that publishing the advice on which the decision has been made, however weak it is, would also have been a good idea.

There probably isn’t any!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can’t drive and I’m really hoping that there is some payback for masks in terms of increase capacity being released on the network.

Both Shapps and Hancock have now hinted at this.

 

[MikeWM]

No opposition from any MPs as far as I can tell. We no longer seem to have a functioning parliament! Totally agreed on the need for an effective opposition.

Perhaps we are not so far apart on this issue after all. I voted for the present government - how do you think I feel !!!

Civil liberty issues often tend to cut across other political divides. Tony Benn frequently used to comment on that fact when he was sharing platforms on civil liberty issues with people like David Davis or Peter Lilley.

Which is why it is particularly dismaying that MPs are effectively silent on all these issues - are they all that meek, or is their perspective across all of them that narrow? In the past there were always at least a handful of awkward backbenchers on pretty much any issue you could think of.

First party to start making sense on all these issues, including mask-wearing (to get back on topic ) gets my vote at the next General Election. This is that important.

 

[mmh]

I have been, and am still. I'm deeply troubled by the lack of any apparent political opposition too [1]. Have any one of the 650 MPs made any comment against masks, or indeed pretty much anything else apart from the quarantine measures?

Very few have made any comment on anything. Steve Baker and David Davis probably the most high profile, both arguing for a need for lockdown easing and return to work. We haven't really had an opposition at all. Labour's opposition been to criticise the implementation of the policies, not the policies themselves. So instead of decent debate, all we have is argument over testing numbers, furlough support length, and so on. The only comment over masks will likely be over timing and location, not their introduction. I believe Sadiq Khan has already started this non-opposing opposition by asking why masks aren't mandated for more public spaces.

 

[MarkyT]

As an aside (may be justifying of a new thread, but then again maybe not) Matt Hancock has just announced they will be mandatory for hospital outpatients and visitors, and medical-grade masks mandatory for all hospital staff regardless of setting (unless a higher level is required).

I think the evidence is building for masks' effectiveness in many environments where it has been measured, for instance the halving of staff infection rates at a Boston MA (US) hospital where universal masking for staff and patients was introduced:

Coronavirus Diagnoses In Staff Drop By Half After Boston Hospital Requires Masks For All

New infections diagnosed in Brigham and Women's employees dropped from 12 or 14 a day to more like eight once they all had to wear masks — and to about six once patients had to wear masks too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very few have made any comment on anything. Steve Baker and David Davis probably the most high profile, both arguing for a need for lockdown easing and return to work. We haven't really had an opposition at all. Labour's opposition been to criticise the implementation of the policies, not the policies themselves. So instead of decent debate, all we have is argument over testing numbers, furlough support length, and so on. The only comment over masks will likely be over timing and location, not their introduction. I believe Sadiq Khan has already started this non-opposing opposition by asking why masks aren't mandated for more public spaces.

Could this be because they actually agree by and large with what's being done? There can be consensus in politics, it's no bad thing.

 

[westv]

Which is why it is particularly dismaying that MPs are effectively silent on all these issues - are they all that meek, or is their perspective across all of them that narrow? In the past there were always at least a handful of awkward backbenchers on pretty much any issue you could think of.

Bring back the Beast of Bolsover!

... although I'd have to add I'd never vote for him.

 

[43066]

Civil liberty issues often tend to cut across other political divides. Tony Benn frequently used to comment on that fact when he was sharing platforms on civil liberty issues with people like David Davis or Peter Lilley.

Which is why it is particularly dismaying that MPs are effectively silent on all these issues - are they all that meek, or is their perspective across all of them that narrow? In the past there were always at least a handful of awkward backbenchers on pretty much any issue you could think of.

First party to start making sense on all these issues, including mask-wearing (to get back on topic ) gets my vote at the next General Election. This is that important.

There’s an interesting party political point here. Why do people vote Tory? In my case it’s because I want:

- the smallest government possible;
- minimal legislative interference in my life;
- individual freedom.

Good grief! I certainly *did not* vote to be fined for daring to leave my home, nor to be fined for failing to wear a muzzle in public. I also didn’t vote for the economy to be nosedived into the ground!

But that’s what I seem to be getting. To say I’m angry about it is an understatement.

 

[sjpowermac]

My approach will be to carry one with me, but not wear it by default.

If I’m asked to put it on by a police officer I will have no choice but to do so.

If I’m asked to put it on by someone not in authority, I will tell them to Foxtrot Oscar.

If I’m told to wear it at work I’ll say it’s uncomfortable and distracting, and I cannot perform my safety critical role while wearing it.

Wearing a uniform (or any other dress code) is very different to a requirement to wear a mask - facial expressions are a fundamental part of human interaction.

Ah, so ultimately if the police told you to, you would wear a mask. In practical terms, I’m not so sure our positions are as radically different as you first claimed.

How about the burqa if the police told you to do it

When I read your original post I did think ‘you are David Icke and I claim my £10’

 

[MarkyT]

There’s an interesting party political point here. Why do people vote Tory? In my case it’s because I want:

- the smallest government possible;
- minimal legislative interference in my life;
- individual freedom.

Good grief! I certainly *did not* vote to be fined for daring to leave my home, nor to be fined for failing to wear a muzzle in public. I also didn’t vote for the economy to be nosedived into the ground!

But that’s what I seem to be getting. To say I’m angry about it is an understatement.

The point of face-covering on public transport and in other enclosed areas is to try and end the ongoing restrictions on peoples' behaviour more quickly and to reduce human suffering and death in the meantime. All other mainland European countries have introduced this measure on public transport. I think it's sensible to accept this minor inconvenience in the short term and mask up now to help beat the disease quickly and decisively while easing the lockdown and getting back to work. That will help us all to get back to normality more quickly, including dispensing with masking once infections are sufficiently reduced.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree. On the other hand, railway forums are really the last bastions of calm and considered reasoning

To be honest, they're not bad in that respect !

 

[Journeyman]

I think it's sensible to accept this minor inconvenience in the short term and mask up now to help beat the disease quickly and decisively while easing the lockdown and getting back to work. That will help us all to get back to normality more quickly, including dispensing with masking once infections are sufficiently reduced.

But how much is sufficient, and how do we know it will make even a slight difference? Evidence suggests it won't. This throws up far too many unanswered questions.

 

[NorthOxonian]

The point of face-covering on public transport and in other enclosed areas is to try and end the ongoing restrictions on peoples' behaviour more quickly and to reduce human suffering and death in the meantime. All other mainland European countries have introduced this measure on public transport. I think it's sensible to accept this minor inconvenience in the short term and mask up now to help beat the disease quickly and decisively while easing the lockdown and getting back to work. That will help us all to get back to normality more quickly, including dispensing with masking once infections are sufficiently reduced.

How do we know that forced mask wearing won't just be continued indefinitely, as the "temporary" security measures on flights were?

 

[Journeyman]

How do we know that forced mask wearing won't just be continued indefinitely, as the "temporary" security measures on flights were?

If we're not careful, we'll be stuck with a toxic legacy for decades. I'm extremely concerned that the goals of the policy, and the criteria for starting and ending it, haven't been properly defined. If you're threatening me with serious sanctions for non-compliance, I think I have a right to know why you're making me do something I would never choose to do voluntarily.

 

[sjpowermac]

The point of face-covering on public transport and in other enclosed areas is to try and end the ongoing restrictions on peoples' behaviour more quickly and to reduce human suffering and death in the meantime. All other mainland European countries have introduced this measure on public transport. I think it's sensible to accept this minor inconvenience in the short term and mask up now to help beat the disease quickly and decisively while easing the lockdown and getting back to work. That will help us all to get back to normality more quickly, including dispensing with masking once infections are sufficiently reduced.

Agree with all you’ve put there. I understand concerns about masks being retained in the long run but linking it to the virus alert levels would guard against this. You’ve made some very well reasoned posts.

 

[MarkyT]

But how much is sufficient, and how do we know it will make even a slight difference? Evidence suggests it won't. This throws up far too many unanswered questions.

Evidence from East Asia where public transport usage remained high, and some cities did not even impose a full lockdown, is that widespread public masking has worked VERY effectively, probably primarily due to 'source control' in enclosed environments and other areas where crowds can form and distancing is difficult to maintain. Hong Kong, for example, has had a per capita death rate ONE THOUSAND times lower than the UK. Evidence for the protection of the wearer is much weaker I agree, but source control is meant to protect everyone in the enclosed environment so everyone benefits if all or at least the vast majority are wearing. This is not the same as a known contaminated environment such as a COVID hospital ward where medical staff are trying to protect themselves using high performance PPE.

 

[greyman42]

!

I've always been very pro-Unions. But given the actions of the rail unions (along with the teachers unions) over the last few months, I'm sorry to say they are rapidly losing my support.

Never thought I would say it but well done Mick Cash. And who in their right mind is going to volunteer to enforce the wearing of face coverings. I think we could guess at what sort of unsuitable people would want to do this.

 

[greyman42]

We have just had over two months of our lives being very severely disrupted. For me, I’m more than happy to wear a face mask to help get back to some degree of normality on public transport. You are entitled to your opinion, I honestly couldn’t care less about the masks. Anyhow, masks are happening, so you will have to decide if you wish to travel or not.

Masks are not going to be around for long. Either the government will drop it or the public will drop it. When the good weather returns, does anybody think that the hordes heading to Bournemouth and Southend are going to be bothering with masks?

 

[43066]

Ah, so ultimately if the police told you to, you would wear a mask.

I’ll have no choice - I don’t want to be fined/prosecuted. That doesn’t mean I agree with it!

In practical terms, I’m not so sure our positions are as radically different as you first claimed.

Agreed - I stated as much above.

How about the burqa if the police told you to do it

Again - if it was legally mandated, what choice would I have?

When I read your original post I did think ‘you are David Icke and I claim my £10’

You’ve misimagined me there . Although I detect a hint of irony.

 

[43066]

Masks are not going to be around for long.

How do we know that?!

 

[Bikeman78]

I agree (though compulsory face coverings won't do much to get me back on the trains, quite the opposite!). But look at Mick Cash yesterday (this is from the Guardian, but I assume it is accurate)



He sounds like he's actively campaigning to make most of his own staff redundant!

Mad isn't it. Does Mick Cash think the government will finance empty trains forever more?

 

[P Binnersley]

If (as stated) they are doing it through the conditions or carriage, it won't apply to people who brought tickets before the change. Better to put it in a public health regulation so appplies to everybody, automatically expires at the end of 'the emergency' and is reviewed every three weeks.

While the risk is higher on public transport, the shear number of people in shops means masks in shops would have a bigger impact. But perhaps that is politically unacceptable.

 

[Starmill]

If (as stated) they are doing it through the conditions or carriage, it won't apply to people who brought tickets before the change.

This seems to be a notable weakness, yes. We can only hope few are affected, and those who don't wish to wear a mask are offered and choose to accept full refunds.

 

[mmh]

Labour are not a party of civil liberties, far from it; they are the party of the nanny state. They never have been and never will be. Boris is a libertarian and you can be sure he won't do more than he needs to.

Practice isn't really showing that. It's the most intervening Conservative government in living memory, likely ever. Perhaps unavoidably, but the level of state spending and control of the economy and libertarianism make odd bedfellows. Johnson had eight years to show his laissez-faire credentials as London Mayor, he didn't. He's a populist, economically to the right of centre but very much a believer in the state.

 

[Journeyman]

Johnson just comes out with whatever crap he thinks will get him elected. I've never seen such an unprincipled, incompetent charlatan in my life.

 

[mmh]

There seem to be lots of supporters of mask wearing posting, so I'll ask again. If it's needed to make public transport safer, why have we not introduced it today rather than wait until the 15th?