philthetube
Established Member
- Joined
- 5 Jan 2016
- Messages
- 3,762
Also because they run quality vehicles, for the most part, they will survive longer.
they will survive longer.
Excluding the countless fires.
Haven't a few of those been newer vehicles too...
1) They can quite easily cascade buses that have been leased, as they have demonstrated numerous times over the years. Often with a comprehensive refurbishment thrown in too!Up until about 2005-ish when Blazefield used to buy buses for the flagship routes and then cascade the vehicles they replaced down. But since they've been leasing and not buying the buses when the lease expires they've got nothing to cascade down. Which is why we're in the situation where we've got near enough 20 year old heavy weight B10s on town services, and 15 year old B7TLs repainted and pushed back out onto an intense front line service on the Pendle Wizz, or having to buy second hand buses in to fill the gaps (the gop-eyed Presidents for example)
I don't actually think there's anything wrong with using older buses as long as reliability and comfort don't suffer. The B10s, still brilliant machines and I could happily spend all day on one. The B7s they've got on the 152 and now Pendle Wizz don't seem to be too bad either, although with low emission zones popping up across various cities the places they can go will be limited. Which explains why it now seems the Euro 5 B9s on the Witch Way seem to be heading to depots that operate into Leeds...
You are right. They don’t need anything like that number of replacement buses. Based on the average life cycle of a bus, Transdev actually have a very good record of annual investment in new vehicles.Does Blazefield really need 190 replacement buses? How many of these 190 are in frontline service and not confined schools/contract services? How many of the vehicles have been given an extensive refurbishment during their lives?
As other people have mentioned, as long as it's well maintained and comfortable and meets any current regulations, I can't see a problem with them running older vehicles - indeed, given the way some bus services have been going, it may be the case between them running vehicles of that age or no service at all...
It was therefore more economical to refurbish them and put them on marginal routes around Burnley that wouldn’t be viable with new buses - purchased or leased.
it really doesn’t make any great difference when you are doing the route costing sums!
I'm confused and probably missing something obvious, but isn't this contradictory?
If you're on a tender, like in London, leasing makes sense, especially if abnormal specs are needed, like in London. The fiasco of the Citaro bendies proves that much.
But with a more traditional operation, like Blazefield, historically I thought you'd buy new for the flagship routes that can carry the depreciation and amortisation. As those buses age, they move down the pecking order until after 20-odd years they go off to the scrappy.
The issue with leasing would appear to my amateur eyes to be that you can't cascade something you've sent back to the finance company. Although, fairly obviously, if the finance company can't do anything with the returned bus you're in a strong bargaining position to buy or extend the lease on favourable terms.
Age of buses doesn't necessarily bother people, the Transdev B10BLE Renowns are probably in better nick than buses that are ten years younger at some operations (CoughFirstCough).
Transdev will have to up their game in the 2020s.
When costing routes there will be a proportion of your fixed pence per mile rate that covers the lease or depreciation cost, but it’s likely to be very similar. It certainly has within the various operators I have crunched the numbers for who have you used both methods.
Yes they’re still using a number of older vehicles but they quickly moving their way through the fleet.
Are you actually familiar with Transdev's operations and what they use those older buses on, and how many of those older buses have had extensive mid-life refurbishments?Then it is possible that Transdev'sbuses will get older and older, many of the Volvo B7 dds could still be running at 25 yo if there is no pros p ect of replacement. Second hand replacement only postpones the problem for the future. Older buses don't follow emission standards.
An example is MTL in the early 90s. Unable to buy new buses 1970s Leyland Atlanteans were replaced by ex London Leyland Titans from the 1980s. Result? nearly 400 buses from the 1980s by the late 1990s MTL had to sell to Arrival in 2000 but the Titan story doesn't end there. Arrival had to sell Gillmoss garage to GTL in 2001. GTL took the by then elderly Titans and ADDED MORE. When these reached 25 yo GTL had to purchase ex Stagecoach single Decker's of the early 1990s . By 2005 the cost of this creaking fleet brought GTL down and Stagecoach rescued them, investing the first new vehicles for years. London's bus operators lease vehicles but London is a regulated market and the TFL insists on high standards for buses running in the capital. Even cities like Leeds, York and Harrogate are implementing low emission policies which Blazefield are having to adhere to. Transdev will have to up their game in the 2020s.
I have no idea why so many people have such an issue with this leasing/purchasing argument, but take it from someone who has worked on the commercial management side of the bus industry for the best part of 20 years, it really doesn’t make any great difference when you are doing the route costing sums!
Then it is possible that Transdev'sbuses will get older and older, many of the Volvo B7 dds could still be running at 25 yo if there is no pros p ect of replacement. Second hand replacement only postpones the problem for the future. Older buses don't follow emission standards.
Blazefield have a relatively small number of DD routes, and they are largely high profile ones with high spec buses. The others tend to be school contracts with varying age limits, so it may not be financially sensible to cascade them from one to the other, hence the second hand purchase at times of suitable buses.Neither do I, which is why I pointed out that as long as reliability and comfort don't suffer, there's no issue with using older buses.
My point was that if they had bought new buses instead of leasing, they'd have more than likely had vehicles to cascade down rather than having to buy second hand buses.
Then it is possible that Transdev'sbuses will get older and older, many of the Volvo B7 dds could still be running at 25 yo if there is no pros p ect of replacement. Second hand replacement only postpones the problem for the future. Older buses don't follow emission standards.
Are you actually familiar with Transdev's operations and what they use those older buses on, and how many of those older buses have had extensive mid-life refurbishments?
Because it sounds like you are basing your argument on a purely spreadsheet basis, having looked at numbers on a fleetlist?
I am not sure that Jo Public are that bothered about the fact that the buses (not busses) have been had their emissions cut.Up their game? Harrogate it the UK’s first low emissions bus town, and who runs those busses? Transdev do. Over the past 5 years, they’ve really stepped up, bringing in ultra high speck, low emissions busses that put most other operators to shame. Yes they’re still using a number of older vehicles but they quickly moving their way through the fleet.
The fact is that the fares in Harrogate are far higher than in most other areas of the country.
If they made the fare structure more attractive more people would use the bus.
The fact is that the fares in Harrogate are far higher than in most other areas of the country.
£14.70 for a week's pass seems about the going rate, it doesn't scream ripoff to me?
For example except for a couple of examples here and there you can almost discount all the double deckers that are not route branded, very few of these are in public service, or if they are it’s in a spare role.Does that age matter if they're restricted to schools or contract services only - not many operators is going to invest in a load of new buses just to be used a couple of times a day on these type of contracts. Oh and you can upgrade older buses to current emission standards - you can even get funding for it, as shown below:
York bus firms awarded £1.6m ahead of Clean Air Zone
City of York Council has awarded more than £1.6m to five bus companies to help them prepare for its upcoming Clean Air Zone (CAZ) for buses. When the CAZ launches on January 31, every bus operating frequent services on or…airqualitynews.com
City of York Council has awarded more than £1.6m to five bus companies to help them prepare for its upcoming Clean Air Zone (CAZ) for buses.
When the CAZ launches on January 31, every bus operating frequent services on or within York’s inner ring road will be required to meet the Euro VI emission standard, or have a plan in place that will enable them to meet the standard within 12 months.
Once fitted with the equipment required to reduce emissions, the buses must then operate on routes serving the CAZ in York city centre for a minimum of five years.
The only buses that will be exempt from the requirements are those that enter the Clean Air Zone fewer than five times each day and those due to be retrofitted or replaced before 31 January 2021.
Bus operators were invited to bid for CAZ funding to help them meet the cost of retrofitting or replacing their vehicles, and a total of £1,654,000 has been allocated to the following:
Arriva Yorkshire: £252,000 to retrofit 14 buses.
First York: £1,188,000 to retrofit 66 buses.
Harrogate Coach Travel: £70,000 to retrofit 5 buses.
Reliance Motor Services: £72,000 to retrofit 4 buses and a further £54,000 towards the cost of three new Euro VI buses (total grant of £126,000).
Transdev: £18,000 to retrofit one bus.
I get that feeling too - I just did a little look at the Transdev fleetlist for the West Yorkshire Information Service website and came up with 189 vehicles that came in the 1995-2005 age range. Unfortunately, I don't know the operations well enough to know how many of these are in frontline service - however I know I can discount a few.
Of these, 38 appear to be dedicated school buses due to the livery that it carries (although the actual number of school buses will be far higher than that) and 6 are sightseeing buses for York. At least a further 33 are mentioned as having been refurbished so I think they should also be discounted.
For example except for a couple of examples here and there you can almost discount all the double deckers that are not route branded, very few of these are in public service, or if they are it’s in a spare role.
Looking at single decks, you’ve got the school buses, the Valleyline and Burnley Renowns have been refurbished, the City Sightseeing fleet is due to be replaced, the Keighley Shuttle had Harrogate The 1 buses were also refurbished.
WeWith regards to the Renowns, they could effectively run them into the ground. They've paid for themselves over and over again, which will more than offset the poor fuel economy. Plus they have no local low emission targets to meet.
I believe the Keighley Shuttle B7s have had exhaust/engine mods similar to the Harrogate 1's so they meet slightly stricter emissions targets. As long as reliability doesn't become an issue there's plenty of life left in them.
With regards to the Renowns, they could effectively run them into the ground. They've paid for themselves over and over again, which will more than offset the poor fuel economy. Plus they have no local low emission targets to meet.
I believe the Keighley Shuttle B7s have had exhaust/engine mods similar to the Harrogate 1's so they meet slightly stricter emissions targets. As long as reliability doesn't become an issue there's plenty of life left in them.
I accept that Transdev have invested in new buses and engines for LEZ areas. But other local authorities want LE buses in their area and will want to catch up with Leeds, Harrogate and York as they are not exempt from climate change. The 20 yo buses of today are better than the awful Leyland Titans I mentioned earlier and I concede that not all the 165 buses of age need to be replaced by new buses (a good bargain would be the ten Volvo B9s due to be sold by Bus Vannin).:But Warrington, outside the Blazefield area wants ALL. ELECTRIC buses in the town, is a sign post to the future thinking of local authorities Blackburn and Burnley may want to follow a similar line.Up their game? Harrogate it the UK’s first low emissions bus town, and who runs those busses? Transdev do. Over the past 5 years, they’ve really stepped up, bringing in ultra high speck, low emissions busses that put most other operators to shame. Yes they’re still using a number of older vehicles but they quickly moving their way through the fleet.
They have invested in a significant amount of new buses for their Burnley and Blackburn depots over the last few years, none of which have been due to LEZ areas.I accept that Transdev have invested in new buses and engines for LEZ areas. But other local authorities want LE buses in their area and will want to catch up with Leeds, Harrogate and York as they are not exempt from climate change.
Keighley Shuttle B7s
Interesting you mention those. Clearly Transdev do think the age of the bus matters to passengers, because they bought cherished plates for them all to disguise their age.
But yes, they are still in good nick. Transdev have looked after them, even going so far as to put the new-style headlight clusters on them at refurbishment (not my photos):
Transdev in Keighley 1809 (JRZ 1809)
1809 is a Wright Eclipse Urban DP44F bodied Volvo B7RLE and it seen inside the Intack Depot on display during Transdev Lancashire United's Open Day. Unlike it's sisters - 1806 and 1807, it hasn't gone through the refurbishment stages yet and it retains the old Shuttle branding. Formerly...www.flickr.com
Transdev Keighley JRZ 1809 1809
Transdev Keighley JRZ 1809 1809 Reg: JRZ 1809 Operator: Transdev Keighley & D Route: Not In Service Depot: Keighley Livery: 662 Shuttle Type: Wright Eclipse Urban/ Volvo B7RLE Location: Keighley Notes: 1 of 14 B7RLE's branded for the 662 - Keighley to Bradford 'Shuttle'. 1809 is named...www.flickr.com
I believe single decks on the Red Express are permanent and this doesn’t say otherwise
Improving the Hotline fleet throws more questions into the mix