Was the InterCity Express Programme (IEP) a success or not?

[LittleAH]

Never really understood the hard seats comments. As someone with a bad back, they're good and provide more than adequate support. Done 2 hour journeys on LNER and TPE - no issue. Decent trains.

 

[mmh]

Seats are the forum's not-so-secret per topic!

In this case though, saying "I prefer HSTs because they had better seats than 80x" makes little sense even as an individual's subjective opinion. The HSTs, with their age and number of different operators, had many different seats. If we must reduce it down to seats (again!) people should at least give a clue to what operator / era's HST seat they're talking about.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seats are the forum's not-so-secret per topic!

In this case though, saying "I prefer HSTs because they had better seats than 80x" makes little sense even as an individual's subjective opinion. The HSTs, with their age and number of different operators, had many different seats. If we must reduce it down to seats (again!) people should at least give a clue to what operator / era's HST seat they're talking about.

Very true. For instance, I'd take a Fainsa Sophia any day in preference to an InterCity 70, the original HST seat, which would be fine but for the fixed armrests which both squash my backside and force my knees forward into the conveniently pointy table supports. It's a real pity all Mk3s weren't built to the Class 442 spec - far better seats, and button/handle operated vestibule doors to stop them banging back and forth, as well as far more pleasant lighting and power doors. The 442 as built really was everything every other Mk3 should have been.

I can however see why an IC70 might actually be reasonably comfortable to someone 6 inches or so shorter who isn't built like a 6' 4" rugby player who also does a fair bit of cycling. Which is why I think the key to seat design is coming up with something nobody hates, rather than something one particular type of person loves.

Of course, all TOCs should buy Grammer seating and the world would be a better place (sorry, thought I'd squeeze a quick advert in - if you would like to purchase any of Grammer's fine range of quality seating, you can find their website here: https://www.grammer.co.uk/ )

 

[irish_rail]

People talk of the cold harshness of the interior, however having now travelled on LNER and TPX ones I'd definitely say it's only the GWR ones that are poorly furnished. The lner and tpx ones are far warmer and more welcoming in appearance. Hopefully in a few years GWR will treat us southerners to some of the better interiors that northern users are benefitting from, but I won't hold my breath!

 

[Bletchleyite]

People talk of the cold harshness of the interior, however having now travelled on LNER and TPX ones I'd definitely say it's only the GWR ones that are poorly furnished. The lner and tpx ones are far warmer and more welcoming in appearance. Hopefully in a few years GWR will treat us southerners to some of the better interiors that northern users are benefitting from, but I won't hold my breath!

GWR just need to use the colour scheme on the Electrostars (dark green on the seats, and a dark instead of lime green stripe) and it'd be fine. It's not a bright scheme, but it feels welcoming enough on the Electrostars.

 

[RailWonderer]

Take out the kitchens/buffet car and the 125mph and the 80x stock are glorified commuter trains. Even a 395 is more comfortable. They may be the order for years to come but I and many others will never like them and will still scorn them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Take out the kitchens/buffet car and the 125mph and the 80x stock are glorified commuter trains. Even a 395 is more comfortable. They may be the order for years to come but I and many others will never like them and will still scorn them.

395s are basically a 20m doors at thirds version of the same thing - but the key thing they have is better seats (which I had hoped would be used in the 80x). Both have a sort of Desiro-esque feel in a way, the 395 very much like a 350 (very similar interior scheme) and the 80x very much like a 444.

 

[Reeegan]

The NRPS is out soon. That’ll give a view as to whether passengers believe they’re better than HSTs. You’ll be able to compare passenger satisfaction of the train attributes for the HST v IET. That’s surely the overriding thing?

I think they’re good. Pretty smart and do the job well for punters.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think they’re good. Pretty smart and do the job well for punters.

They certainly look good - the long vehicles give a very sleek look, and while they only run at 125mph they look like "proper" high speed EMUs.

 

[irish_rail]

The NRPS is out soon. That’ll give a view as to whether passengers believe they’re better than HSTs. You’ll be able to compare passenger satisfaction of the train attributes for the HST v IET. That’s surely the overriding thing?

I think they’re good. Pretty smart and do the job well for punters.

To be fair I always feel the questions in those are "weighted" to trick the average user into giving the response that makes the industry look good.

 

[northernbelle]

To be fair I always feel the questions in those are "weighted" to trick the average user into giving the response that makes the industry look good.

I'm not sure why Transport Focus, who compile NRPS, have any need or desire to reflect things to be better than they are, given they act as a lobbyist to the industry.

Previous rounds of NRPS has shown satisfaction growing with GWR ever since the whole modernisation plan began in late 2016. This says to me that satisfaction is driven by a lot more than the specific niggles people seem to have with IETs.

 

[northernbelle]

Specifically on the matter of seats, NRPS has a specific score for 'Comfort of the seats'.

Using Spring 2017 survey as the starting point as this was the first report where seat comfort was included:

GWR - "Comfort of the seats" - NRPS compiled by Transport Focus

NRPS Round	% of passengers satisfied	% of passengers neither/nor (indifferent)	% of passengers dissatisfied
Spring 2017	69	21	11
Autumn 2017	70	18	12
Spring 2018	72	19	9
Autumn 2018	69	17	14
Spring 2019	72	15	13
Autumn 2019	72	15	12

The numbers have not meaningfully changed since Spring 2017, which suggests that there isn't a huge growing dissatisfaction around train seats amongst the general public that some might have you believe.

 

[ashkeba]

The length of stop is irrelevant. If I am travelling from Bristol to Edinburgh and my train stops a while at Newcastle, my mind won’t change on whether I’m on an intercity service. That sort of anslysis is for the enthusiasts.

No, long stops cut the average speed and the above was once the definition of InterCity. Then EuroCity was that plus some international additions (such as staff able to speak English, French and not sure what else).

Maybe the UK had another definition of InterCity but you did not link it and only disputed.

To keep on topic, IETs on the other hand are a success in my view because it embodies what an intercity train should be. Fast and long distance.

Yes, IETs seem to do this. They do not stop long at Bristol, it seems. XC does not have any AT300s yet but that may be because it's not real InterCity so is not allowed access to the IEP.

 

[ashkeba]

The numbers have not meaningfully changed since Spring 2017, which suggests that there isn't a huge growing dissatisfaction around train seats amongst the general public that some might have you believe.

And for those of us not in GWR area, when did HSTs finish?

 

[PG]

And for those of us not in GWR area, when did HSTs finish?

I believe that it was 18th May 2019.

 

[ashkeba]

I believe that it was 18th May 2019.

So not even a whole survey period with only IETs in that table?

 

[PG]

I'm not sure why Transport Focus, who compile NRPS, have any need or desire to reflect things to be better than they are, given they act as a lobbyist to the industry.

Perhaps because the IEP was the brainchild of DfT who, surprise surprise, sponsor Transport Focus.
Source.

Transport Focus is an executive non-departmental public body, sponsored by the Department for Transport.

 

[northernbelle]

Perhaps because the IEP was the brainchild of DfT who, surprise surprise, sponsor Transport Focus.
Source.

​

I'm not talking about who sponsors TF, but who compiles the data. You'll find it's done independently by surveyors who have no interest either way. If DfT or TF wanted to 'hide' an issue with seat comfort, why put it in as a measure at all?

 

[northernbelle]

So not even a whole survey period with only IETs in that table?

That table is for the whole of GWR, not just the long distance services. IETs started running in October 2017 so would be a factor from the Autumn 2017 survey.

 

[class26]

Never really understood the hard seats comments. As someone with a bad back, they're good and provide more than adequate support. Done 2 hour journeys on LNER and TPE - no issue. Decent trains.

I have a bad back but find the seats simply dreadful, an insult to the paying public.

 

[class26]

No, long stops cut the average speed and the above was once the definition of InterCity. Then EuroCity was that plus some international additions (such as staff able to speak English, French and not sure what else).

Maybe the UK had another definition of InterCity but you did not link it and only disputed.


Yes, IETs seem to do this. They do not stop long at Bristol, it seems. XC does not have any AT300s yet but that may be because it's not real InterCity so is not allowed access to the IEP.

I would have thought XC do not (yet?) have any 800`s is because firstly their trains are only at their mid life stage and also the production line so far has been rather busy making 800`s for other operators so even had XC wanted them they would have to wait their turn.

 

[43096]

I'm not sure why Transport Focus, who compile NRPS, have any need or desire to reflect things to be better than they are, given they act as a lobbyist to the industry.

Because they are largely funded by DfT.

If you think they are genuinely independent then you are deluded.

Having been given one of their forms to fill out in the past, the questions are obviously fixed to a certain outcome. Take the age-old announcements issue, the question asked about whether announcements were made but neglected to ask if they were too few/too many/too long.

 

[ashkeba]

That table is for the whole of GWR, not just the long distance services. IETs started running in October 2017 so would be a factor from the Autumn 2017 survey.

This gets more complicated! What % of journeys for each line in the table was IETs? If that is mostly people on Bristol and London commuter services, then it is not a surprise if the numbers do not change much as long as nothing really nasty like wooden benches happens.

 

[ashkeba]

I'm not talking about who sponsors TF, but who compiles the data. You'll find it's done independently by surveyors who have no interest either way. If DfT or TF wanted to 'hide' an issue with seat comfort, why put it in as a measure at all?

Because you can hide IETs among Sprinters, Turbos and Electrostars and get a number to dismiss IET critics?

 

[ashkeba]

I would have thought XC do not (yet?) have any 800`s is because firstly their trains are only at their mid life stage and also the production line so far has been rather busy making 800`s for other operators so even had XC wanted them they would have to wait their turn.

HSTs are mid-life?

Agree on the wait but no XC order has even been made and it will probably be left too late, as usual recently.

 

[Ianno87]

Because you can hide IETs among Sprinters, Turbos and Electrostars and get a number to dismiss IET critics?

Although IETs would represent a reasonable hefty % of overall GWR passengers, both in absolute numbers and kilometres travelled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

HSTs are mid-life?

XC's fleet is mostly Voyagers, and the 222s will become available to replace the HSTs fairly soon.

 

[fgwrich]

Because they are largely funded by DfT.

If you think they are genuinely independent then you are deluded.

Having been given one of their forms to fill out in the past, the questions are obviously fixed to a certain outcome. Take the age-old announcements issue, the question asked about whether announcements were made but neglected to ask if they were too few/too many/too long.

Agreed, the forms I had previously handed to me while travelling on, funny enough Great Western, were very very leading in it's questioning.

 

[northernbelle]

So, I've offered some actual data and research on the subject (albeit dismissed as a fix by the usual culprits).

Other than your opinion, perhaps you'd like to offer some similar counter-evidence - declining passenger numbers from October 2017 perhaps?

 

[Purple Orange]

No, long stops cut the average speed and the above was once the definition of InterCity. Then EuroCity was that plus some international additions (such as staff able to speak English, French and not sure what else).

Maybe the UK had another definition of InterCity but you did not link it and only disputed.


Yes, IETs seem to do this. They do not stop long at Bristol, it seems. XC does not have any AT300s yet but that may be because it's not real InterCity so is not allowed access to the IEP.

So Aberdeen to Penzance or Manchester to Bournemouth is not an intercity service, then what on earth is?

If long distance train services that links cities such as Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, Birmingham, Bristol, Manchester, Reading, Plymouth, Exeter & Southampton are not intercity services, then I’d say you have a very different view compared to the travelling public. Yes these routes should have 7 car IET units, but Voyagers are certainly intercity standard IMHO.

I guess everyone would agree Avanti West Coast is an intercity operator? And that London-Birmingham is an intercity service right? Avanti also run Birmingham-Glasgow on Voyagers, and that too is an intercity service, soon to be an IET service. So what would be the difference between Bristol-Birmingham-Manchester on a Voyager compared to Birmingham-Glasgow on a Voyager or IET, or compared to Liverpool-Manchester-Edinburgh on an IET or Manchester-Glasgow on a 397?