Was the InterCity Express Programme (IEP) a success or not?

[Speed43125]

Money.

Which is partly driven in turn by customer opinion. Though perhaps those in the Dft are affected by that bit less.

 

[Purple Orange]

Indeed many of GWR journeys will be under 2 hours. I refer specifically to the london to south west route where most passengers will be on board for over 2 hours as absolute minimum and many , up to 5 hours. This route should get better stock even if the Bristol and oxford routes keep the commuter orientated layouts.

What you are really asking for is improved seats, not improved rolling stock, which is what this thread is trying to appraise. Unless I have got you wrong, in which case:

1. What rolling stock would you replace it with for the London-Plymouth market?
2. How many units would be needed?
3. How many passengers per service on average?
4. How many services per day?
5. How much could we estimate that one unit costs?
6. What other markets could they apply to?

 

[stuu]

... most passengers will be on board for over 2 hours as absolute minimum and many , up to 5 hours. This route should get better stock even if the Bristol and oxford routes keep the commuter orientated layouts.

I would love to see some numbers on this. My experience of 10+ years of doing Somerset to London up to daily is that very few reservations on weekdays are to/from Cornwall. Taunton, Exeter, Newton Abbot and Plymouth are far more common. I would bet at least half the passengers at Paddington are going no further than Exeter. Of course that is just anecdotal, is there any data available publicly?

 

[irish_rail]

I would love to see some numbers on this. My experience of 10+ years of doing Somerset to London up to daily is that very few reservations on weekdays are to/from Cornwall. Taunton, Exeter, Newton Abbot and Plymouth are far more common. I would bet at least half the passengers at Paddington are going no further than Exeter. Of course that is just anecdotal, is there any data available publicly?

The busy trains ex cornwall are the ones that leave penzance from 9 o clock onwards, therefore hitting taunton no earlier than midday so I'm guessing that perhaps that may be a little late for you to begin your journey?
Also as you state many of the reservations are to places like Plymouth. That's 3hrs 15. It's a long time. It's similar to london Newcastle or london Carlisle.
Anecdotally, from many years of driving the route I'd say at least half of passengers on a train ex paddington are travelling beyond exeter on most services.

 

[irish_rail]

What you are really asking for is improved seats, not improved rolling stock, which is what this thread is trying to appraise. Unless I have got you wrong, in which case:

1. What rolling stock would you replace it with for the London-Plymouth market?
2. How many units would be needed?
3. How many passengers per service on average?
4. How many services per day?
5. How much could we estimate that one unit costs?
6. What other markets could they apply to?

Pretty much that's correct. An improved ambience, like on TPX which feels more relaxing inside and somehow the seats a little bit more comfortable.
I'm not saying replace the trains, just improve the interior, preferably on all GWR stuff, but more especially on the longer distance london to pz services .

 

[Bletchleyite]

The seats on TPE are the same as GWR, and I think they're flat cloth, so differ only in colour from the originals. I do find moquette seats seem to have that tiny little amount more thickness that makes a difference to the "metal bar" feeling, though. But it's amazing the difference the colour scheme makes. That's quite evident, though - my nicely colourful lounge feels more comfortable to me than it did when I bought the house and it was all stark magnolia, even though I have the same chairs as I did then.

 

[northernbelle]

The seats on TPE are the same as GWR, and I think they're flat cloth, so differ only in colour from the originals. I do find moquette seats seem to have that tiny little amount more thickness that makes a difference to the "metal bar" feeling, though. But it's amazing the difference the colour scheme makes. That's quite evident, though - my nicely colourful lounge feels more comfortable to me than it did when I bought the house and it was all stark magnolia, even though I have the same chairs as I did then.

You're right. The seats in all 80x delivered so far are the same, have the same padding and only the covers vary. TPE retains the original flat cloth specification (albeit in a different colour/pattern) and has fitted the same seating with the same flat cloth to its 397s and Mk5 sets.
GWR had the original flat cloth replaced with loop-pile moquette as per the rest of its fleet and LNER followed by having it replaced with a cut pile moquette.

I agree though, it's amazing how the colour and the different feel of moquette can make such a difference to the perceived comfort of a train.

The East Coast Trains Ltd. 803s will have a different seating type to its predecessors, which will be the same seat type fitted to Avanti 390s when they are refurbished.

 

[Irascible]

SWR have my money now ( to be fair FGW's last HST refurbishment did a lot to push me off that route ) as long as the 159s stay. I will take the extra time and not arrive with a headache & half my muscles aching, I suspect I'm an edge case though. From the point of view of someone who's been travelling that route since the early 70s ( back when I could stand on a table & my head only just reached the open window ) I'm not going to say it's been a failure, but certainly doesn't feel like success yet. I'm sure you can produce statistics to illustrate any point in the success-failure spectrum...

 

[cactustwirly]

I think @ashkeba is using the European, probably German, definitions which do come up here from time to time (and I use them myself) which do specify a maximum station stop time. However the UK does not and never has used those definitions. In practice, rather than by the letter, I'd say GWR's 80x, Avanti and LNER would be ICE by German standards (I know the interiors aren't as nice!) and XC (other than XC-lite), EMT and Greater Anglia's FLIRTs would be IC.

EMR would be both, the slow Corby & Notts services 'IC', but the rest 'ICE'

 

[43096]

This month's letters page in Modern Railways contains a withering critique of the DfT and its handling of IEP procurement from Adrian Shooter, in particular around its profligacy with cost and use of consultants.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This month's letters page in Modern Railways contains a withering critique of the DfT and its handling of IEP procurement from Adrian Shooter, in particular around its profligacy with cost and use of consultants.

I think that's about what I think - the train is reasonably successful - it does the job well - but the Programme was expensive and inefficient, when a TOC could just have ordered a train like that the conventional way. The Pendolino for VT was arguably more specialised than that is.

 

[Domh245]

when a TOC could just have ordered a train like that the conventional way.

Which would almost certainly have led to a wide variety of different trains at each TOC. For all their failings, they are at least pretty standard which (IEP contract aside) could prove beneficial down the line!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which would almost certainly have led to a wide variety of different trains at each TOC.

Could have. Wouldn't necessarily have. Designs like the Electrostar/Aventra and Turbostar are all over the place.

What might have made more sense would be for the Government to have put out for tender "140mph capable InterCity trainsets capable of running on 25kV AC and diesel and able to be specified in lengths of approximately 100 and 200m, with scope for large scale follow on orders" and left them to it. That would have likely produced something similar but for less money.

The train I think is decent (the seats aren't, but that's easily fixed - after all HSTs have had what I consider to be the worst Standard seat that has ever been used on a UK train in recent memory (IC70) and the best (Grammer IC3000) ), the concept is decent and standardisation is decent - it's the programme that was pretty inefficient for what it delivered. That said, they can now be ordered for a reasonable price on conventional leases, so maybe that's just water under the bridge now.

 

[gsnedders]

What might have made more sense would be for the Government to have put out for tender "140mph capable InterCity trainsets capable of running on 25kV AC and diesel and able to be specified in lengths of approximately 100 and 200m, with scope for large scale follow on orders" and left them to it. That would have likely produced something similar but for less money.

And at the extreme end of that would've been the Government underwriting the R&D cost should they fail to get a certain number of orders.

 

[43096]

The train I think is decent (the seats aren't, but that's easily fixed - after all HSTs have had what I consider to be the worst Standard seat that has ever been used on a UK train in recent memory (IC70) and the best (Grammer IC3000) ), the concept is decent and standardisation is decent - it's the programme that was pretty inefficient for what it delivered. That said, they can now be ordered for a reasonable price on conventional leases, so maybe that's just water under the bridge now.

Do you get paid every time you mention Grammer?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you get paid every time you mention Grammer?

Wish I did!

 

[superkev]

This month's letters page in Modern Railways contains a withering critique of the DfT and its handling of IEP procurement from Adrian Shooter, in particular around its profligacy with cost and use of consultants.

Good article mainly focusing on the Dept of Twirps costly consultant culture.
I do not think it was mentioned but one of the proposals at the time was use of a "powerhouse" to power the train off wires. There is such a train and they could have could have saved a fortune as well as getting low floor, step free entrance, plug doors and perhaps a better ride which are the main failings of the IEP.
i.e. the Stradler Flirt.
K

 

[Ianno87]

Could have. Wouldn't necessarily have. Designs like the Electrostar/Aventra and Turbostar are all over the place.

Although in 2014 or so, Southern for a while a de-facto procurement agent for Electrostars for DfT!

What might have made more sense would be for the Government to have put out for tender "140mph capable InterCity trainsets capable of running on 25kV AC and diesel and able to be specified in lengths of approximately 100 and 200m, with scope for large scale follow on orders" and left them to it. That would have likely produced something similar but for less money.

There were (then at least) OJEU procurement rules which may have made that approach not possible (i.e. not sure if it's possible to imply or state "scope for follow on orders" without committing to them).

 

[Bletchleyite]

There were (then at least) OJEU procurement rules which may have made that approach not possible (i.e. not sure if it's possible to imply or state "scope for follow on orders" without committing to them).

"An option for an additional 500 vehicles to be ordered in 20 vehicle quantities by <date>" would be possible - that sort of thing has been done.

 

[43096]

"An option for an additional 500 vehicles to be ordered in 20 vehicle quantities by <date>" would be possible - that sort of thing has been done.

It is standard practice to include options in a contract. As an example when Denmark's DSB placed a contract for 26 new electric locos with Siemens a couple of years ago, it included options for a further 18, 16 of which have since been called off in two batches of 8. That is just one example.