Was the InterCity Express Programme (IEP) a success or not?

[Purple Orange]

And this is where both personal preference and opinion comes in again. They (in particular the GW) do look cheap inside. Or perhaps you enjoy the lighting experience of a dental surgery?

They may lack the squealing of a Mk3 corridor, but I find the wind noise far more annoying on an IET - particularly the constant droning if you sit in the leading cars. Something I don't experience on any other modern EMU.




The 180 was only being used as a point of "All enthusiasts rubbish the new and long for the old". They are, somewhat unfortunately, not as successful as their far more disliked contemporary of the time.

Yes this is all completely personal preference. I've not been on a GWR IET so perhaps my view of them could change if I was to use one.

 

[route101]

Yes this is all completely personal preference. I've not been on a GWR IET so perhaps my view of them could change if I was to use one.

The 385 have that wind noise , makes them sound hollow.

 

[Purple Orange]

The 385 have that wind noise , makes them sound hollow.

Technically, a train is hollow.

 

[gsnedders]

Absolutely. The 180s were reasonable trains to ride on but a mechanical nightmare - I agree they can't really be described as 'successful'. Some sets are about to arrive at their fourth or fifth home having been put to one side by successive operators.

They were roughly 18 months late going into service and even then full service introduction was prolonged and beset with problems. There were several issues with underfloor fires leading to full train evacuations and eventually they were handed back to the leasing company in favour of more HSTs. Their second stint on GW was ended as soon as was possible and they were among the first trains to go off lease having been replaced by new IETs.

I'm surprised nobody has bemoaned the fact they were only 5 cars or run as 2x5 cars as the IETs seem to attract such criticism for that.

It's worthwhile remembering the financial design of the IEP procurement was all about putting the risk about their ongoing reliability onto the bidder, and that risk not being held by the government or TOC. Agility Trains have to deliver that number of units for that number of diagrams for 27 years, so they need to ensure the trains are built solidly enough to be as reliable in 27 years as they are today.

 

[route:oxford]

APT's don't exist and never did in full service - prototype only. That comparison justifies nothing. In the present time i.e. Now, the IEP is the worlds most expensive train to procure and run - just accept a fact.

That really doesn't matter.

If you have to deny the existence of a batch of trains that ran up and down the West Coast mainline between 1980 and 1986 in order that the story fits your agenda, then that tells us all you need to know about the quality of research and journalism at your preferred trade rag.

Do Modern Railways deny the Class 89?
Do Modern Railways deny the Class 151?
How about the LMS 10000 & 10001 - Also in denial?
Or going overseas the US SLRV built by Boeing?

How many other trains built over the last 190 years, all around the world, have they intentionally ignored to come up with the increasingly weak claim about the IET?

Now, I've co-authored articles that have been published in trade rags (specialist medical journals). There's absolutely no way I'd get away with denying the existence of a medicine, disease or even a gene just because it didn't suit the article.

 

[irish_rail]

This.

I find it a really strange obsession, the negativity towards IETs. I read this as purely a nostalgia junkie problem, or by people who must have things organised and arranged in a set way (I.e. it can only ever be a HST regardless). If it was just about the seats, it needs to be recognised that these trains will have about 4 or 5 different interiors during its lifetime.

You obviously don't live in a location where travelling on an IET is the only option for rail travel travelling long distances. If I want to travel up country I have to spend over 3 hours on an IET. And they are NOT comfortable for long journeys. Just because you may like new for the sake of new trains, until you are travelling on them regularly for very long periods then you are not really entitled to comment.

 

[northernbelle]

It's worthwhile remembering the financial design of the IEP procurement was all about putting the risk about their ongoing reliability onto the bidder, and that risk not being held by the government or TOC. Agility Trains have to deliver that number of units for that number of diagrams for 27 years, so they need to ensure the trains are built solidly enough to be as reliable in 27 years as they are today.

Yes indeed. We ought not to forget that, to get the HSTs to the present day, each vehicle has had multiple heavy refurbishments and rebuilds not to mention redesigns.

 

[Purple Orange]

You obviously don't live in a location where travelling on an IET is the only option for rail travel travelling long distances. If I want to travel up country I have to spend over 3 hours on an IET. And they are NOT comfortable for long journeys. Just because you may like new for the sake of new trains, until you are travelling on them regularly for very long periods then you are not really entitled to comment.

My experience of them is with TPE, which I do use for 2 hour plus journeys. Excluding lockdown, I need to use TPE on a weekly basis. They genuinely feel fine to me. Perhaps GWR is different in some way.

 

[Speed43125]

My experience of them is with TPE, which I do use for 2 hour plus journeys. Excluding lockdown, I need to use TPE on a weekly basis. They genuinely feel fine to me. Perhaps GWR is different in some way.

GWR ones appear to be the most hated out of all of them. I agree the Lime green is pretty abhorrent and not something I'd spec for a long distance train, but otherwise I've found LNER ones to be fine. Acceleration on diesel is noticeably so much better than a 2+9 HST

 

[43096]

Yes indeed. We ought not to forget that, to get the HSTs to the present day, each vehicle has had multiple heavy refurbishments and rebuilds not to mention redesigns.

The Great Western IEPs have had to have seat covers replaced already because they were such poor quality and stained so badly after just weeks of use. Done nothing for their comfort though.

 

[northernbelle]

The Great Western IEPs have had to have seat covers replaced already because they were such poor quality and stained so badly after just weeks of use. Done nothing for their comfort though.

Indeed. The TOCs told DfT that long before they were ever installed, too.

 

[O8yityityit]

Basically because the seats are a bit hard for your taste and you've got a nostalgia complex for slam doors and droplight windowas?

Which is what I said earlier in the thread.
Trainspotters thinking up reasons not to like the new trains because they replaced their favourites.

 

[northernbelle]

Which is what I said earlier in the thread.
Trainspotters thinking up reasons not to like the new trains because they replaced their favourites.

I don't think it's entirely down to this. There's a distinctive air of anti-establishment-ism among some. I also think that railway enthusiasts often care about things that the average passenger doesn't (and doesn't care about things that joe public does), and so what they feel the priorities should be end up being different.

The era of social media also means that every move made by anything or anyone is noticed much more readily. In previous generations, trouble or difficulties with rolling stock were far less widely reported. It was also more difficult for every person to give their view on something - one of the only reliable measures of opinion was passengers voting with their feet and influencing passenger numbers, or the press reports of the day. Social media has also given everyone an equal volume - whether they speak from a position of experience or not.

What I do feel that we've lost in society is the ability to "agree to disagree". Everybody has to ram their point home over and over again, as though it's going to persuade someone else to change their mind which it clearly isn't.

Quite clearly, the original question "Was the IEP a success" is going to have all manner of subjective responses. Measurement against criteria such as financial success, or train MTIN is easier, but perhaps not so relevant to some.

 

[irish_rail]

My experience of them is with TPE, which I do use for 2 hour plus journeys. Excluding lockdown, I need to use TPE on a weekly basis. They genuinely feel fine to me. Perhaps GWR is different in some way.

Having had one ride on a tpx one it was noticable how much better the ambience was compared to the GWR stuff. I would say even gwr stuff is just about acceptable for journeys of under 2 hours , but anymore is not good (I say this from experience). The problems are widely known and I wont repeat what has been said many times.
It stinks that GWR which have the longest journeys on IEts (Aberdeen and Inverness excepted) also have the runts of the litter in terms of interior ambience.
I would imagine most TPX users will be on them for less than an hour, yet the paddington to south west route generally sees passengers on board for between 2 and 5 hours.

This is where nationalisation and a centralised fleet would be a good idea, as the best stock could go where it is needed as opposed to which franchise it Is allocated to, but that's probably for another thread!!!!!!!

 

[stuu]

You obviously don't live in a location where travelling on an IET is the only option for rail travel travelling long distances. If I want to travel up country I have to spend over 3 hours on an IET. And they are NOT comfortable for long journeys. Just because you may like new for the sake of new trains, until you are travelling on them regularly for very long periods then you are not really entitled to comment.

They are not comfortable IN YOUR OPINION. I think they are absolutely fine, if dreary inside (GWR). I used them at least weekly for several hour journeys, and I have no idea what the problem is with the seats. It's an entirely subjective matter

 

[irish_rail]

They are not comfortable IN YOUR OPINION. I think they are absolutely fine, if dreary inside (GWR). I used them at least weekly for several hour journeys, and I have no idea what the problem is with the seats. It's an entirely subjective matter

Right so tell me this ,what is the length of this journey you make several times a week?
As I agree they are adequate for journeys upto 2 hours.
Sadly for those of us in the south west and south wales, the journey to london is rather longer.

 

[Domh245]

This is where nationalisation and a centralised fleet would be a good idea, as the best stock could go where it is needed as opposed to which franchise it Is allocated to, but that's probably for another thread!!!!!!!

Conveniently overlooking the fact that the rubbish GWR interiors are entirely down to DfT!

 

[stuu]

Right so tell me this ,what is the length of this journey you make several times a week?
As I agree they are adequate for journeys upto 2 hours.
Sadly for those of us in the south west and south wales, the journey to london is rather longer.

I live in Taunton, which last time I looked was in the South West. I need(ed) to go to London or Reading most weeks for work, and fairly regularly for leisure (in normal times obviously). So that's up to 4 hours a day on them, admittedly not all in one go... I have never felt that I was glad to be getting off because of the seats.

 

[irish_rail]

Conveniently overlooking the fact that the rubbish GWR interiors are entirely down to DfT!

Of course, but say a few years down the line Labour get into power (entirely plausible) then in an ideal world things will have changed enough , and new people will be in place, and hopefully a common sense approach could take place, putting the dregs on the more local stuff and the better stuff on the longer routes. Or better still standardise all interiors to be on a par with the current tpx stuff

 

[irish_rail]

I live in Taunton, which last time I looked was in the South West. I need(ed) to go to London or Reading most weeks for work, and fairly regularly for leisure (in normal times obviously). So that's up to 4 hours a day on them, admittedly not all in one go... I have never felt that I was glad to be getting off because of the seats.

Well taunton to padd is most definitely under 2 hours unless you end up on a stopper. I think iets are fine for that kind of stuff. Also we may have very different body types. Some may find the fainsa seating pleasant, but I'd wager the majority don't , and after 3 years of driving and travelling them I'd say the majority are not happy with the seat on the longer journeys to the south west.

 

[stuu]

Well taunton to padd is most definitely under 2 hours unless you end up on a stopper. I think iets are fine for that kind of stuff. Also we may have very different body types. Some may find the fainsa seating pleasant, but I'd wager the majority don't , and after 3 years of driving and travelling them I'd say the majority are not happy with the seat on the longer journeys to the south west.

I really don't think that anything much happens after a couple of hours that makes the seat uncomfortable. You generally notice pretty quickly... The worst seats were the most recent first class seats in HSTs, which looked incredible, but were actually very uncomfortable after only a short while. I haven't been in first on the IEPs yet so can't comment

I have never overheard anyone say anything about the seats, good or bad so I'm not convinced the majority do think that. I suspect it would depend entirely on the question you asked them.

 

[irish_rail]

I really don't think that anything much happens after a couple of hours that makes the seat uncomfortable. You generally notice pretty quickly... The worst seats were the most recent first class seats in HSTs, which looked incredible, but were actually very uncomfortable after only a short while. I haven't been in first on the IEPs yet so can't comment

I have never overheard anyone say anything about the seats, good or bad so I'm not convinced the majority do think that. I suspect it would depend entirely on the question you asked them.

Well as you are my customer I am glad you have enjoyed your journeys and I look forward to driving you again in future. At the end of the day you pay my wages and I'm pleased that there are passengers who are happy with the service.

 

[Energy]

Well as you are my customer I am glad you have enjoyed your journeys and I look forward to driving you again in future. At the end of the day you pay my wages and I'm pleased that there are passengers who are happy with the service.

What are the IETs like to drive compared to other stock?

 

[irish_rail]

What are the IETs like to drive compared to other stock?

Too be fair they are pretty good to drive. There are problems with the engines in warm weather idling, as well as windscreen wipers that don't work especially well, and other minor niggles with the driving seat , but overall they are certainly easier (if less enjoyable) to drive than a HST.
Brake is more or less instantaneous on IET , and as is widely reported , they go like sh*t off a shovel on electric.
Overall an improvement for drivers ( if a little dull).

 

[Energy]

Too be fair they are pretty good to drive. There are problems with the engines in warm weather idling, as well as windscreen wipers that don't work especially well, and other minor niggles with the driving seat , but overall they are certainly easier (if less enjoyable) to drive than a HST.
Brake is more or less instantaneous on IET , and as is widely reported , they go like sh*t off a shovel on electric.
Overall an improvement for drivers ( if a little dull).

What about cab layout? It looks well 'futuristic' but how comfortable is it? It has a different layout to many other trains.

 

[irish_rail]

What are the IETs like to drive compared to other stock?

Too he fair they are pretty good to drive. There are problems with the engines in warm weather idling, as well as windscreen wipers that don't work especially well, and other minor niggles with the driving seat , but overall they are certainly easier (if less enjoyable) to drive than a HST.
Brake is more or less instantaneous on IET , and as is widely reported , they go like sh*t off a shovel on electric.
Overall an improvement for drivers ( if a little dull)

What about cab layout? It looks well 'futuristic' but how comfortable is it? It has a different layout to many other trains.

It is more driver friendly than a HST in that everything is in easy reach. It is not dissimilar to a voyager (we drive those on Laira) , but a little nicer. From a drivers perspective they are a good train all things considered.

 

[Purple Orange]

Having had one ride on a tpx one it was noticable how much better the ambience was compared to the GWR stuff. I would say even gwr stuff is just about acceptable for journeys of under 2 hours , but anymore is not good (I say this from experience). The problems are widely known and I wont repeat what has been said many times.
It stinks that GWR which have the longest journeys on IEts (Aberdeen and Inverness excepted) also have the runts of the litter in terms of interior ambience.
I would imagine most TPX users will be on them for less than an hour, yet the paddington to south west route generally sees passengers on board for between 2 and 5 hours.

This is where nationalisation and a centralised fleet would be a good idea, as the best stock could go where it is needed as opposed to which franchise it Is allocated to, but that's probably for another thread!!!!!!!

What about 2 hours 30 mins?

You may be right that most TPE passengers do journeys under 1 hour, but that will be true for many TOCS, even perhaps GWR. What I would not underestimate is the volume of people who do travel Newcastle to Manchester or Edinburgh/Glasgow to Manchester, even Liverpool to York.

 

[Purple Orange]

I don't think it's entirely down to this. There's a distinctive air of anti-establishment-ism among some. I also think that railway enthusiasts often care about things that the average passenger doesn't (and doesn't care about things that joe public does), and so what they feel the priorities should be end up being different.

Then there is a third group - those who make decisions. How do their priorities align?

What I do feel that we've lost in society is the ability to "agree to disagree". Everybody has to ram their point home over and over again, as though it's going to persuade someone else to change their mind which it clearly isn't.

I don’t think there has ever been a time when this has been the case.

 

[Nym]

Then there is a third group - those who make decisions. How do their priorities align?

Money.

 

[irish_rail]

What about 2 hours 30 mins?

You may be right that most TPE passengers do journeys under 1 hour, but that will be true for many TOCS, even perhaps GWR. What I would not underestimate is the volume of people who do travel Newcastle to Manchester or Edinburgh/Glasgow to Manchester, even Liverpool to York.

What about 2 hours 30 mins?

You may be right that most TPE passengers do journeys under 1 hour, but that will be true for many TOCS, even perhaps GWR. What I would not underestimate is the volume of people who do travel Newcastle to Manchester or Edinburgh/Glasgow to Manchester, even Liverpool to York.

Indeed many of GWR journeys will be under 2 hours. I refer specifically to the london to south west route where most passengers will be on board for over 2 hours as absolute minimum and many , up to 5 hours. This route should get better stock even if the Bristol and oxford routes keep the commuter orientated layouts.