"Cedric Martindale proposes Penrith to Keswick reopening"

[Bletchleyite]

Talking of Stagey in the Lakes, summer has even better coverage, and this well-designed booklet can be picked up in paper form:

https://mediafiles.thedms.co.uk/Publication/CU/cms/pdf/lakes-Connection-Guide-Summer-2018-lr.pdf

It's not quite Southern Vectis, but it's very, very close.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Talking of Stagey in the Lakes, summer has even better coverage, and this well-designed booklet can be picked up in paper form:

https://mediafiles.thedms.co.uk/Publication/CU/cms/pdf/lakes-Connection-Guide-Summer-2018-lr.pdf

It's not quite Southern Vectis, but it's very, very close.

Their network really is excellent, and while the ticketing is expensive, an Explorer ticket can get you to and from the Lakes as well as around the area. I can buy my ticket in Newcastle, change at Carlisle for Keswick/Penrith, and then enjoy a good few hours around the Lakes. It's takes a lot longer, but it's much easier and cheaper than faffing about buying a train ticket to Penrith and getting on the bus there. I'm not a driver but the park and explore ticket seems another great option for getting cars out of the Lakes, since congestion is a problem on some of the narrower roads up there.

And it's very enjoyable. While such a journey might not be possible this summer, I hope to enjoy the full network when it returns in 2021 (or August if we're really lucky!) - near the top of my to do list!

 

[A0]

The Lakes bus network is surprisingly good and really well promoted (if a little pricey at times) - give it a go - you will be surprised at just how good it is, and it certainly does cater for what you suggest (including, by way of the infrequent but still usefully timed Langdale Rambler, some "obscure mountain walks" though obviously not all of them and there are sizeable gaps). There are large gaps in coverage (particularly west of Windermere) but it is really not bad and mostly commercial, I believe. Also while it's not promoted it has through ticketing across connections (I only found out when a driver offered it to me having asked where I was planning to end up!)

Route map if you're interested: https://tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s3.amazonaws.com/ZoneMaps/Cumbria/The Lakes by Bus - Map Winter 0919.pdf

It's North Wales that needs its game upping, that really is very poor for an area that is very easy to serve because there are very few roads to need to run the buses down!

How you can say it is "quite pricey" when a 1 day explorer is £ 11.50 and a 7 day one is £ 30 is beyond me. That one day is cheaper than a day return by train from Penrith to Oxenholme.

The one thing I think that really lets it down is the lack of decent bus stations, rather than building this railway I'd build some staffed (in summer), full-service bus stations in Ambleside (stick it on the car park behind the present stops, there's plenty of room), possibly Grasmere (again, there's a decent sized car park it could be plonked on part of, or the field next to it), Keswick and Windermere (could be done alongside the full redevelopment of the station perhaps rather than the present slightly poshed up tin shack?), and possibly a few others.

I fail to see why any of those places need a bus station - as tourist spots they already have the facilities you'd be looking for e.g. refreshments, toilets etc provided. Reducing car parking in places like Grasmere won't help anyone - it'll simply place more pressure on the remaining spaces and encourage people to go elsewhere.

As for congestion on the A66, I've never seen it congested, but if it is just plonk some bus lanes down, it's dualled for most of its length.

That is a monumentally stupid idea. The buses run a couple of times an hour - so you'd have empty carriageways sitting there for the majority of the time and force all the traffic into one, at a stroke increasing congestion - what a genius idea, not. Add in that you'd worsen road safety - the dual sections are there to enable traffic to pass slow moving, often farm, traffic - so you want to allow a tractor to create a 2 mile queue and have people undertake dangerous overtakes in the reduced space just to put in a bus lane which would speed up the bus by a couple of minutes. And people wonder why pro public transport and more usually pro rail people are weird.

TBH, building this railway now would make about as much sense as building the Conwy Valley now (though I'll admit it probably wouldn't wash away *quite* as often). As others have said I wouldn't close it if it was open, but opening a new one is a rather different case.

Probably the most senisble thing you've said in this post.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How you can say it is "quite pricey" when a 1 day explorer is £ 11.50 and a 7 day one is £ 30 is beyond me. That one day is cheaper than a day return by train from Penrith to Oxenholme.

The 7 day ticket is priced for locals getting to work (very similar to Vectis, indeed). Most people don't go to the Lakes for a week, it's primarily a weekend/few days type destination. People going for a week are very unlikely not to do so by car if they can, because they need more luggage.

I think you're thinking about it from an enthusiast's perspective, though. £11.50 is great value if you're going to ride round on buses all day. Most people aren't, they'll make a return journey a day. As is often the case, the singles are priced up somewhat (ENCTS reimbursement, anyone?) so those people are hit relatively hard.

As for the train fare, if a day return from Penrith to Oxenholme is £15.70 (which it is), that is outrageous and needs reducing to about £10 or even less. It's about half the distance as from Bletchley to Euston, on which a Super Off Peak is priced very similarly and an Off Peak about £20.

I fail to see why any of those places need a bus station - as tourist spots they already have the facilities you'd be looking for e.g. refreshments, toilets etc provided. Reducing car parking in places like Grasmere won't help anyone - it'll simply place more pressure on the remaining spaces and encourage people to go elsewhere.

If you've ever stood around waiting for the bus in typical Lakeland weather, you'll know why quality waiting facilities are needed, as is quality information for tourists (logic would be that any tourist information office would be at the bus station and could sell tickets etc too). Also, as Alex Hornby and Ray Stenning well know (why do so many others disregard this?) the "soft product" has to be good to get people out of cars. Two tumbledown bus shelters on the edge of a small car park simply do not sell the product. Stagecoach have the on-bus "soft product" pretty good in the Lakes, particularly the route under discussion, but off the bus it really is appalling.

 

[A0]

The 7 day ticket is priced for locals getting to work (very similar to Vectis, indeed). Most people don't go to the Lakes for a week, it's primarily a weekend/few days type destination. People going for a week are very unlikely not to do so by car if they can, because they need more luggage.

I think you're thinking about it from an enthusiast's perspective, though. £11.50 is great value if you're going to ride round on buses all day. Most people aren't, they'll make a return journey a day. As is often the case, the singles are priced up somewhat (ENCTS reimbursement, anyone?) so those people are hit relatively hard.

I disagree - £ 11.50 isn't alot - not when you factor in that you'll easily pay £ 5 in parking fees around the Lakes for a day (as I know). And on a slightly different angle Stagecoach have the park & explore ticket at £ 18 which covers a day's parking and up to 5 people. Sorry, none of that is significant amounts of money and I think you have an unrealistic view of how much things cost.

As for the train fare, if a day return from Penrith to Oxenholme is £15.70 (which it is), that is outrageous and needs reducing to about £10 or even less. It's about half the distance as from Bletchley to Euston, on which a Super Off Peak is priced very similarly and an Off Peak about £20.

And that Bletchley - Euston is off peak. Try doing that for £ 20 at any time - particularly with a return in the afternoon between 5pm and 7pm.

If you've ever stood around waiting for the bus in typical Lakeland weather, you'll know why quality waiting facilities are needed, as is quality information for tourists (logic would be that any tourist information office would be at the bus station and could sell tickets etc too). Also, as Alex Hornby and Ray Stenning well know (why do so many others disregard this?) the "soft product" has to be good to get people out of cars. Two tumbledown bus shelters on the edge of a small car park simply do not sell the product. Stagecoach have the on-bus "soft product" pretty good in the Lakes, particularly the route under discussion, but off the bus it really is appalling.

The whole point is for both bus and rail stations that people don't 'stand around' for any length of time. They arrive 5 minutes or so before their train / bus is due to leave. Now, OK, if their train / bus is running late, then there's a problem. But building bus stations for edge case scenarios doesn't make sense. With the growth of e-ticketing the idea of the Tourist Office selling tickets is at least 10 years out of date and probably 20. And before you say 'oh, but what about the pensioners who don't get technology' - those are the same pensioners who will have a bus pass to begin with and therefore won't be worrying about e-tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And that Bletchley - Euston is off peak. Try doing that for £ 20 at any time - particularly with a return in the afternoon between 5pm and 7pm.

Erm, the £20 ticket has no evening restrictions (the £15 one does). It is very similar in its validity to the Penrith ticket concerned. The Anytime is rather pricier, but what's that got to do with a leisure traveller?

The whole point is for both bus and rail stations that people don't 'stand around' for any length of time. They arrive 5 minutes or so before their train / bus is due to leave.

That's just not how it is with a lower-frequency service (as distinct from a typical big city "every 5 minutes or better" main corridor), and I'm flummoxed that you suggest it's realistic. Should we also tear down the Great Hall and Parcels Deck at Euston and put up bus shelters on open platforms instead? The mind utterly boggles - you simply have no idea of how a quality public transport service needs to be provided. You have the attitude of an "I'm all right Jack" expert user, which will never, ever get people out of their cars.

 

[A0]

That's just not how it is with a lower-frequency service (as distinct from a typical big city "every 5 minutes or better" main corridor), and I'm flummoxed that you suggest it's realistic. Should we also tear down the Great Hall and Parcels Deck at Euston and put up bus shelters on open platforms instead? The mind utterly boggles - you simply have no idea of how a quality public transport service needs to be provided. You have the attitude of an "I'm all right Jack" expert user, which will never, ever get people out of their cars.

No comparison - Euston is a major terminus in a major city - a single train could be taking on over 300 people, whereas in Grasmere you might get 10 people waiting for the bus.

Go 20 miles or so outside Euston to St Albans Abbey - that's a terminus with a platform and a couple of shelters - that's an equivalent to Grasmere. Having infrastructure (buildings in this case) standing around lightly or unused is expensive - you have to heat them, light them, maintain them - none of this comes for free. All of it is a cost which somebody has to pay for.

Yes, there's a case for a bus station in a town centre where there are several converging routes and potentially terminating routes where buses need to stand before heading off on their next service - but that's not the case you're looking at. And if you're a tourist in any number of the lakes towns you're not going to look at your watch and say 'ooh - the bus isn't for half an hour, we'll go and wait at the bus stop now' - you'll continue looking around the shops etc until 10 mins or so beforehand. That's why there is a timetable - people know that and go there when their bus is due - not a load of time before. And if you want evidence of that, look at the boats which run up and down the lakes - people don't stand around for half an hour waiting for the next one - they go for a wander around the town and head back with about 10 mins to spare before the boat arrives. Same with the bus, same with local trains.

Which is why, if the Kewsick line came back into being, the station is likely to be more akin to Felixstowe or at best Windermere than anything more grandiose.

And as it happens, I don't believe providing bus stations will get people out of their cars. And before you cite the "climate emergency" - the fact most cars will be battery powered in the next 15 or so years removes that argument - so what's the next battle against the car going to be on the basis of ?

 

[Llandudno]

Even the Welsh who have a now quite large tendered, State controlled bus network (Traws) are not doing this.

It is absolutely barking mad, and it just strikes me that in the UK we are just utterly incapable of thinking of public transport as one entity and properly integrating it, which is just criminal, really. The bus is high quality (Stagecoach Gold standard, so more comfortable than the Pendolino or Voyager you likely just got off), frequent (half hourly I think) and stops literally right outside the station. It used to be marketed as a RailLinks service but no longer. Get it in the timetable, and make Keswick a "virtual station" like Luton Airport.

It's no great faff paying for it separately (contactless is accepted) nor is it expensive (I forget, but when I did use it I recall being surprised at the price being much lower than expected, as the South Lakes Stagey services are excellent but expensive), but without people getting it coming up when typing Keswick into nationalrail.co.uk it just won't work that way.

Totally agree about the lack of bus/rail coordination in north Wales including Snowdonia - but that is for another thread...

 

[Harpers Tate]

.....£11.50 is great value if you're going to ride round on buses all day.

If there is any part of public transport thinking that involves attempts to reduce car traffic then you have to look at the comparable cost of driving a car (including any parking costs) and touring/visiting/etc with the total cost by bus (say) of an entire car load. Stagecoach Explorer is £23 for two adults and £32.70 for more (up to 5). I suspect one would struggle to spend even close to these amounts on car use, excluding getting to and from the area from outside, which you have to to anyway. That's what makes it "expensive".

 

[A0]

If there is any part of public transport thinking that involves attempts to reduce car traffic then you have to look at the comparable cost of driving a car (including any parking costs) and touring/visiting/etc with the total cost by bus (say) of an entire car load. Stagecoach Explorer is £23 for two adults and £32.70 for more (up to 5). I suspect one would struggle to spend even close to these amounts on car use, excluding getting to and from the area from outside, which you have to to anyway. That's what makes it "expensive".

Disagree - having spent time in the Lakes the last few years. On parking alone you'll lose about £ 10 a day, that's before you factor in the cost of petrol or any other cost.

Add in £ 5 - £ 10 of petrol - not an unreasonable amount and you're already most of the way there for 2 adults.

The bigger problem is people don't like having their journeys dictated to them by a train or bus timetable. And that's basic human behaviour - yes, some will be happier to accept the limitations of travelling by public transport - but I'll be honest, if the Lakes tried to close down car use and force me onto a bus or train, I'd simply go elsewhere to somewhere less obstructive.

 

[Glenn1969]

Cedric Martindale has been talking about this for years. But we need action not more words.

 

[quantinghome]

I disagree. Keswick is the gateway to the North Lakes. The Lakes are England's most sought after National Park. Keswick is heavily reliant on its income from tourism. The A66 is heavily congested at weekends and on any school holiday days. The A591 into Town is then at a stand still for the last 1-2 miles. The car parking is way over capacity. I was in Lakes last Nov with friends who are residents. We saw that in normal times there is now an all year round tourist season.
Properly done with a passing loop and a seperate long platform for excursion trains from London/Manchester/Edinburgh it may make a sound business case.

If you want to know what effect a rail line to Keswick will have on reducing road traffic, take a look at the A591 around Windermere. I doubt it'll have any signficant effect.

The posters advocating buses are right. Get them better connected to the existing stations, through ticketing, extend to Langwathby or Appleby for connections to Yorkshire.

 

[A0]

Cedric Martindale has been talking about this for years. But we need action not more words.

Well, first of all the scheme has to come up with a viable business case. And that's pretty doubtful - once that's been achieved then it can be looked at for reinstatement.

It's about 17 miles long - and assume reinstatement costs of somewhere between £ 20m and £ 30m / mile - dependent on what needs doing, bridges, embankments etc etc. and you're looking at a bill of £ 500m.

My hunch is that the business case isn't that good - but time will tell.

Reality is building railways has never been cheap - and rarely on budget. The GC mainline was forecast as costing £ 3.1m it actually cost £ 11.5m or about £ 1.3bn in current cost - which was about £ 14m / mile.

 

[HSTEd]

Just took a look at the alignment....

Its a bit bendy isn't it?

At some point just building a straight line tunnel might not look too bad as an option.....

EDIT:
Ofcourse if we were going hard for the tourism market then maybe we should just build a new line from Keswick to Windermere..... "The Lake District Express" with panoramic vehicles etc.

 

[JKF]

I doubt it‘s a serious idea, think the government is throwing a bit of money about at feasibility studies because they know it has value politically, not for anything else. A number of these types of schemes just have very vocal backers and tend to dominate reopening discussions despite very little chance of making viable business case.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Would it be cheaper conveying passengers from Penrith -> Keswick by taxi rather than reinstating the old railway line that was closed almost fifty years ago?

 

[Bald Rick]

Would it be cheaper conveying passengers from Penrith -> Keswick by taxi rather than reinstating the old railway line that was closed almost fifty years ago?

Yes definitely, by any financial measure! But even cheaper by a frequent bus service.

 

[Journeyman]

You have to admire his persistence, going back 15 years or more it was a regular turn in the uk.railway newsgroup, with very little support.

But I see nothing about it in recent DfT announcements, could he have been tipped off that it’s in the next list, yet to be published?

The posts about this on uk.railway frequently get well out of hand and escalate to a ridiculous degree. One guy in particular posts fulsome rants about this project on a regular basis.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It is indeed single carriageway west of Penruddock. However, it is a modern road, rebuilt to decent highway standards. Great sight.ines and plenty of overtaking space.

And a folly of a road too, perhaps promoted by Mr Martindale as a boy-racer in his younger years!
In reality the A66 was improved once they realised it was rather difficult to get large parts in (chassis) and completed product out of, the then new Leyland Bus plant at Workington. Some people may suggest it was a daft place to build a vehicle factory, history has made that judgement.

As an aside, I recall some recent proposals to increase the amount of dual carriageway.

 

[A0]

The posts about this on uk.railway frequently get well out of hand and escalate to a ridiculous degree. One guy in particular posts fulsome rants about this project on a regular basis.

There's one or two around here which do that as well.......

There do seem to be some people that struggle with basic concepts like projects should have a business case, railways can't be built on the cheap, rail isn't the only solution and benefits don't just exist because you say so.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The one thing I think that really lets it down is the lack of decent bus stations, rather than building this railway I'd build some staffed (in summer), full-service bus stations in Ambleside (stick it on the car park behind the present stops, there's plenty of room), possibly Grasmere (again, there's a decent sized car park it could be plonked on part of, or the field next to it), Keswick and Windermere (could be done alongside the full redevelopment of the station perhaps rather than the present slightly poshed up tin shack?), and possibly a few others.

Ambleside had a bus station - where the shops are at the top end of the town - now a little open 'square' shopping precinct occupied by outdoor gear shops. The depot was behind at a lower level - opposite the cinema.

Keswick had a bus station/depot which is now Booths Supermarket, hence the small area reserved for buses now. It was a big thing when Stagecoach wanted to sell it off and the council objected to the loss of the coach park. Stagecoach dumped all their reserve fleet on it, all summer, meaning nowhere for day trip tourist coaches to park.

Windermere never had one, the buses being based at Ambleside or Kendal. Ribble, who were the big bus co in their day, had an office just north of the station in what is (was?) Darrells Cafe, as seen on, I think, a Michael Portillo episode where he is distinctly uncomfortable standing in a greasy spoon.

 

[Journeyman]

There's one or two around here which do that as well.......

There do seem to be some people that struggle with basic concepts like projects should have a business case, railways can't be built on the cheap, rail isn't the only solution and benefits don't just exist because you say so.

Completely agreed. I'm pro-rail but only if the numbers stack up - it's pretty obvious in this case they don't. As others have said, the closure may have been a bad decision, but that doesn't mean reopening is automatically a good one.

 

[swt_passenger]

The posts about this on uk.railway frequently get well out of hand and escalate to a ridiculous degree. One guy in particular posts fulsome rants about this project on a regular basis.

Interesting, I haven’t logged in to there for many years since my ISP stopped access...

 

[Killingworth]

I doubt it‘s a serious idea, think the government is throwing a bit of money about at feasibility studies because they know it has value politically, not for anything else. A number of these types of schemes just have very vocal backers and tend to dominate reopening discussions despite very little chance of making viable business case.

A real shame it couldn't be opened through to Cockermouth and Workington. The view beside Bassenthwaite was good.

But that was then. It would be impossibe to open the full length now since the improved A66 uses the old track bed. The section from Keswick to Penrith could not support a better or more economic service than the more flexible and excellent bus route which connects well with trains in Penrith.

If money is spent on a feasibilty study it will be purely political; one to add to the pot to be able to say another scheme has been considered.

Almost anyone could write such a report after looking at aerial photos, the OS map and the current bus timetable. Cost no more than £500-1000 to cover photocopies, a day or two out on the buses to take photos and do a few interviews. If proceeded with it will cost a lot more than that, proving it would be feasible to construct, at massive cost, upsetting many walkers and cyclists deprived of the route, and with negative economic and social costs in terms of operational subsidies compared with the current more versatile bus.

Meanwhile improvement plans for critically congested junctions, resignalling and electrification projects, redoubling single line sections, and adding extra platform space on the operational railway get delayed and ignored.

 

[Bald Rick]

A real shame it couldn't be opened through to Cockermouth and Workington. The view beside Bassenthwaite was good.

But that was then. It would be impossibe to open the full length now since the improved A66 uses the old track bed. The section from Keswick to Penrith could not support a better or more economic service than the more flexible and excellent bus route which connects well with trains in Penrith.

If money is spent on a feasibilty study it will be purely political; one to add to the pot to be able to say another scheme has been considered.

Almost anyone could write such a report after looking at aerial photos, the OS map and the current bus timetable. Cost no more than £500-1000 to cover photocopies, a day or two out on the buses to take photos and do a few interviews. If proceeded with it will cost a lot more than that, proving it would be feasible to construct, at massive cost, upsetting many walkers and cyclists deprived of the route, and with negative economic and social costs in terms of operational subsidies compared with the current more versatile bus.

Meanwhile improvement plans for critically congested junctions, resignalling and electrification projects, redoubling single line sections, and adding extra platform space on the operational railway get delayed and ignored.

I agree with everything you say except the cost of such a report.

Even for a very simple report, perhaps 30-40 pages, it does need to have some hard data behind it, and to have credibility will need checking / peer review. I think it could be done in about 15 person days of effort plus fieldwork, say another 5 days. Add in costs of travel, answering queries etc, you’re probably looking at £20k. This isn’t feasibility, this would be a pre-feasibility strategic assessment. Feasibility needs to look into the technical side of things, as well as more detailed assessment of demand, alternatives, how it might be delivered, and who would pay for it (and how). For a project of this size, that’s going to be a couple of million.

I’d be happy to take the commission for the £20k study myself, but I fear the promoters may not like the answer I would give.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I’d be happy to take the commission for the £20k study myself, but I fear the promoters may not like the answer I would give.

I'll quote £19,500 and say whatever they want me to. Numbers are mere playthings and my scruples disappeared when I was summarily disposed of from my previous longterm position.

 

[Merle Haggard]

/snip

Meanwhile improvement plans for critically congested junctions, resignalling and electrification projects, redoubling single line sections, and adding extra platform space on the operational railway get delayed and ignored.

That hits the nail on the head.

In other proposals, apparently taken seriously, we have new stations proposed to serve small populations on 2 track main lines. On the existing network we have stations serving large towns on 4 track main lines having their services reduced over the last 50 years to permit faster long distance trains.

All proposals seem to be based on re-opening a long-closed line; most such lines were built in the days of Queen Victoria and reflected the flows of that period but, in the modern world, the possible traffic flows which need rail connections do not align with any long-closed and inevitably built -over line. Perhaps the motive is to re-create a treasured (or regretted) personal childhood memory in old age, at taxpayer's expense?

I encountered a Cedric Martindale (possibly the same) in my railway days when he was trying to secure work for Currock wagons shops, which he ran. Without resorting to ad hominem I think his patron saint may be St Jude Thaddeus...

 

[Journeyman]

I'll quote £19,500 and say whatever they want me to. Numbers are mere playthings and my scruples disappeared when I was summarily disposed of from my previous longterm position.

I'll make the case look twice as good as you for nineteen grand.

 

[Journeyman]

All proposals seem to be based on re-opening a long-closed line; most such lines were built in the days of Queen Victoria and reflected the flows of that period but, in the modern world, the possible traffic flows which need rail connections do not align with any long-closed and inevitably built -over line. Perhaps the motive is to re-create a treasured (or regretted) personal childhood memory in old age, at taxpayer's expense?

Of course it is. It's why so many people are desperate to reopen the GC, rather than build HS2. It's got nothing to do with practicality or demand, it's just to correct what is seen as a historical injustice.

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course it is. It's why so many people are desperate to reopen the GC, rather than build HS2. It's got nothing to do with practicality or demand, it's just to correct what is seen as a historical injustice.

In many cases it’s not even that. It’s rose tinted nostalgia.