Being prosecuted for using pay as you go oyster card belonging to someone else

[Skadoosh]

I have written to GA prosecutions (email) and waiting to hear back, seems like I cannot write a hard copy as there is no correspondence apart from an email. I will give them until the end of this week, if I do not hear back I will need to respond back pleading not guilty and attend court. I do hope the case is dropped as the trial date is when I planned to be away.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have written to GA prosecutions (email) and waiting to hear back, seems like I cannot write a hard copy as there is no correspondence apart from an email. I will give them until the end of this week, if I do not hear back I will need to respond back pleading not guilty and attend court. I do hope the case is dropped as the trial date is when I planned to be away.

Well done and good luck - presumably their e-mail address is properly managed but given Court Action threat is at stake I would still post (and get 'signed for on delivery' mail as well as proof of posting) (mark envelopes 'For Attention of GA Prosecutions') - mail to this freepost address (yes, just the 2 lines) and I would send to the business registered office as below too, if it were me. The 'signed for' mail being your proof they got it.

I guess if you e-mailed and got an auto e-mail acknowledgment reply of course save that 'for the file' on the same basis.

Freepost
GREATER ANGLIA CUSTOMER RELATIONS

and / or

Greater Anglia is the trading name of Abellio East Anglia Limited. Abellio East Anglia Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 07861414.
Registered Office address, 18-20 St Andrew's Street, London EC4A 3AG.

from:

Company Information | Greater Anglia

Who is Abellio?

www.greateranglia.co.uk

.

As I say, good luck and let us know how you get on.

 

[Skadoosh]

Well done and good luck - presumably their e-mail address is properly managed but given Court Action threat is at stake I would still post (and get registered mail or at least proof of posting) (mark envelopes 'For Attention of GA Prosecutions') - mail to this freepost address (yes, just the 2 lines) and I would send to the business registered office as below too, if it were me. The registered mail being your proof they got it.

I guess if you e-mailed and got an auto e-mail acknowledgment reply of course save that 'for the file' on the same basis.

Freepost
GREATER ANGLIA CUSTOMER RELATIONS

and / or

Greater Anglia is the trading name of Abellio East Anglia Limited. Abellio East Anglia Limited is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 07861414.
Registered Office address, 18-20 St Andrew's Street, London EC4A 3AG.

from:

Company Information | Greater Anglia

Who is Abellio?

www.greateranglia.co.uk

.

As I say, good luck and let us know how you get on.

Thank you so much @WesternLancer, I will keep everyone posted on how things go with GA.

 

[some bloke]

I will give them until the end of this week

You could give them until Tuesday or Wednesday, then write again saying "I would appreciate a reply by 5pm tomorrow as I believe the issue to be clear-cut; it would seem in everyone's interest to sort this out before it is taken further."

If it were me, I might phone them today (if no phone number visible, call customer services for it) and try to get it dropped by the end of the day.

if I do not hear back I will need to respond back pleading not guilty and attend court.

Court shouldn't be necessary. They can drop the case at any time. If you need to, you can keep communicating with them, and get an answer from TfL to send. If GA delay, you can ask the case to be reviewed by a more senior staff member.

You could also write to the boss of GA.

the trial date is when I planned to be away.

Perhaps I've missed it - when is the date? As you'll be pleading innocent, my understanding is that the case would be/is likely to be (others may clarify) adjourned.

Hopefully this will be sorted out quickly so that you won't worry, at least about most of this.

 

[Skadoosh]

You could give them until Tuesday or Wednesday, then write again saying "I would appreciate a reply by 5pm tomorrow as I believe the issue to be clear-cut; it would seem in everyone's interest to sort this out before court action is begun."

If it were me, I might phone them today (if no phone number visible, call customer services for it) and try to get it dropped by the end of the day.

Court shouldn't be necessary. They can drop the case at any time. If you need to, you can keep communicating with them, and get an answer from TfL to send. If GA delay, you can ask the case to be reviewed by a more senior staff member.

You could also write to the boss of GA.
Perhaps I've missed it - when is the date? As you'll be pleading innocent, my understanding is that the case would be/is likely to be (others may clarify) adjourned.

Hopefully this will be sorted out quickly so that you won't worry, at least about most of this.

Thanks @some bloke

I have already tried calling them, there is no number, I tried to call through customer relations and they said email is the only way.

The letter shows 2nd of July 2020, will there be a new date given for the hearing if I sent the letter pleading not guilty?

 

[Llanigraham]

Thanks @some bloke

I have already tried calling them, there is no number, I tried to call through customer relations and they said email is the only way.

The letter shows 2nd of July 2020, will there be a new date given for the hearing if I sent the letter pleading not guilty?

DO NOT ENTER ANY PLEA!!

You have stated that GA have told you that they have discontinued Court action, therefore ALL you should be doing is telling the Court that.

I repeat, DO NOT ENTER ANY PLEA!!

 

[AlbertBeale]

Well done and good luck - presumably their e-mail address is properly managed but given Court Action threat is at stake I would still post (and get registered mail or at least proof of posting) (mark envelopes 'For Attention of GA Prosecutions') - mail to this freepost address (yes, just the 2 lines) and I would send to the business registered office as below too, if it were me. The registered mail being your proof they got it. ...
...

Technical note - to simply get proof of delivery, you need the "signed for" service (something like £1.30 on top of the relevant postage). The posting is logged at the Post Office you take it to, and you get a reference number to subsequently get proof of delivery (you get proof of posting when you post it).

"Registered" letters haven't existed for inland post for very many years. Registered (which was for valuable items, where contents were insured and the packages went through segregated distribution channels) was combined with Express (guaranteed transit time etc) decades ago - they were merged to form Special Delivery. SD combines guaranted delivery speed with separate handling and insurance etc; it costs many £s more than the ordinary postage for the item.

 

[WesternLancer]

Technical note - to simply get proof of delivery, you need the "signed for" service (something like £1.30 on top of the relevant postage). The posting is logged at the Post Office you take it to, and you get a reference number to subsequently get proof of delivery (you get proof of posting when you post it).

"Registered" letters haven't existed for inland post for very many years. Registered (which was for valuable items, where contents were insured and the packages went through segregated distribution channels) was combined with Express (guaranteed transit time etc) decades ago - they were merged to form Special Delivery. SD combines guaranted delivery speed with separate handling and insurance etc; it costs many £s more than the ordinary postage for the item.

Thanks - I always seem to get the name muddled up - I should really check on Royal Mail site before keeping calling it the wrong name!

Of course it is the signed for service that is required here, exactly as you say. I've amended my post above for clarity.

 

[WesternLancer]

DO NOT ENTER ANY PLEA!!

You have stated that GA have told you that they have discontinued Court action, therefore ALL you should be doing is telling the Court that.

I repeat, DO NOT ENTER ANY PLEA!!

Sorry if I am missing something, but have GA told the OP they have discontinued court action? (are you confusing this with the other thread on here recently re-opened where GoVia told that to someone who has now had a letter from a court rather unexpectedly)?
I do apologize if I have got confused myself...
(and happy for mods to remove this post if I have as it may cause confusion to the respective 'victims' of these cases).

 

[Skadoosh]

DO NOT ENTER ANY PLEA!!

You have stated that GA have told you that they have discontinued Court action, therefore ALL you should be doing is telling the Court that.

I repeat, DO NOT ENTER ANY PLEA!!

I have not had a response from GA to my email, I have sent a copy of the email printed with recorded royal mail delivery. I was referring to pleading not guilty in the case that GA do not respond back to my letter or email as they usually take 10 working days to respond which will go beyond the date when I have to respond by.

 

[ukkid]

I have not had a response from GA to my email, I have sent a copy of the email printed with recorded royal mail delivery. I was referring to pleading not guilty in the case that GA do not respond back to my letter or email as they usually take 10 working days to respond which will go beyond the date when I have to respond by.

Ignore, its advice meant for another thread

 

[MikeWh]

DO NOT ENTER ANY PLEA!!

You have stated that GA have told you that they have discontinued Court action, therefore ALL you should be doing is telling the Court that.

I repeat, DO NOT ENTER ANY PLEA!!

Sorry if I am missing something, but have GA told the OP they have discontinued court action? (are you confusing this with the other thread on here recently re-opened where GoVia told that to someone who has now had a letter from a court rather unexpectedly)?
I do apologize if I have got confused myself...
(and happy for mods to remove this post if I have as it may cause confusion to the respective 'victims' of these cases).

Yes I think there is some confusion.

I have not had a response from GA to my email, I have sent a copy of the email printed with recorded royal mail delivery. I was referring to pleading not guilty in the case that GA do not respond back to my letter or email as they usually take 10 working days to respond which will go beyond the date when I have to respond by.

Ignore, its advice meant for another thread

@Skadoosh My understanding of the letter you have received is that GA will start court proceedings if you don't send them the money. I wouldn't worry therefore, because you have responded to their letter.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Thanks - I always seem to get the name muddled up - I should really check on Royal Mail site before keeping calling it the wrong name!

Of course it is the signed for service that is required here, exactly as you say. I've amended my post above for clarity.

The post nomenclature is confusing - the present "signed for" is what used to be called "Recorded Delivery" ... and is still called that by many of us in odd moments. And the terminologies for inland and international post are no longer aligned like they used to be.

 

[Skadoosh]

Yes I think there is some confusion.


@Skadoosh My understanding of the letter you have received is that GA will start court proceedings if you don't send them the money. I wouldn't worry therefore, because you have responded to their letter.

Hello @MikeWh I received the letter from Magistrates court, date of hearing on the letter is 2 Jul 2020 so they have already taken me to court, which is the reason why I will have to respond not guilty and go to court. I don't think I have any other option if GA do not respond no?

 

[some bloke]

Would you like to upload text/photos of the correspondence, with identifying details removed?

 

[Skadoosh]

Would you like to upload text/photos of the correspondence, with identifying details removed?

Below is what I have sent to GA. Again a big thanks to all who put this together.

Dear Sir / Madam

Case Reference: XXXXXX

Oyster Card Reference Number: XXXXXXXXXX

I am writing to ask you in the strongest terms to review your letter of 03 Jun 2020 and withdraw your request for payment of £150 and related threat of court action.

You have alleged that I have used an Oyster Card in contravention of the rules that apply to it and you suggest that I have not paid the correct fare.

As you will be able to establish, the Oyster Card was issued in 2007 in accordance with the Terms and Conditions applicable at the time. Any discounts associated with using the card for travel expired on 15 Feb 2008.

I do not believe I have breached the law in the manner in which your correspondence states, and I believe that I have paid the correct fare for the journey concerned.

Prior to use I had asked station staff about validity and had been informed that the card just turns into a standard Oyster Card when the discount ends.

This is re-enforced in the Transport for London publication ‘Staff Guide to Fares and Ticketing from 2 January 2015, Book 3: Discount Schemes and Photocards’ on page 7 where it states:


TfL Staff Guide to Fares and Ticketing Jan 2nd 2015 Book 3:

“18+ Student Oyster photocards issued under the Student Discount scheme can continue to be used for adult-rate season tickets and to pay as they go after the discount has expired. Once they are ‘adult’ Oyster cards (i.e. they no longer carry any discount entitlement), they can be given to someone else to use if they only have pay as you go credit on them, even though they have a photo of the registered holder.”


You will be able to consult your own copy of this publication or it can be viewed in full here:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...ng book 3 2015 Photocards and discount....pdf

I therefore believe that the staff who stopped me on the date concerned were incorrect in their actions, and I do not have a case to answer.

I believe that I was using the Oyster Card correctly and have paid the fare due.

I am therefore asking you to:


Withdraw your request for payment and threat of court action
Consider compensating me for the time, costs and stress related to having to deal with this situation.
If you are unable to agree to this I would request that you explain clearly to me, in writing, why not so that I can seek further advice as necessary.

I look forward to hearing from you in due course.

Yours sincerely

 

[some bloke]

You won't go to court if you badger them enough.

I suggest you write again summarising briefly:

.............

"Subject: Please withdraw erroneous threat of prosecution by 18 June

Please confirm by 18 June that this case has been dropped. It seems clear that the proposed prosecution is a result of error.

This is not "someone else's card", or a card that gives a discount. It is an expired photocard which has reverted to, and gives no more discount than, a normal adult Oyster. As I showed in my last letter, the TfL Staff Guide from 2015 makes clear that an expired photocard

"can be given to someone else to use if they only have pay as you go credit on them, even though they have a photo of the registered holder." "

............

If you upload photos of their correspondence with identifying details removed, people on here may suggest what you can do or expect if they don't respond in time.

If you're worried and wanting to sort this out quickly, perhaps there are other ways of reaching/influencing them (complaint to customer services?).

 

[some bloke]

Others may know better than me - perhaps you will get a faster reply by concentrating on dropping the case first, and asking for compensation later.

If you've got a letter from the Mags' Court with a hearing date, after a letter from GA only threatening prosecution, maybe there's been another mix-up.

 

[Skadoosh]

You won't go to court if you badger them enough.

I suggest you write again summarising briefly:

.............

"Subject: Please withdraw erroneous threat of prosecution by 18 June

Please confirm by 18 June that this case has been dropped. It seems clear that the proposed prosecution is a result of error.

This is not "someone else's card", or a card that gives a discount. It is an expired photocard which has reverted to, and gives no more discount than, a normal adult Oyster. As I showed in my last letter, the TfL Staff Guide from 2015 makes clear that an expired photocard

"can be given to someone else to use if they only have pay as you go credit on them, even though they have a photo of the registered holder." "

............

If you upload photos of their correspondence with identifying details removed, people on here may suggest what you can do or expect if they don't respond in time.

If you're worried and wanting to sort this out quickly, perhaps there are other ways of reaching/influencing them (complaint to customer services?).

Thanks, yep I will write to them again, the problem is they will respond in 10 working days. There is no contact number and I very much doubt they will even look at the letter I sent through the post/email by the due date which I need to respond back to the court letter. GA sent me a letter checking if the details I had provided were correct first, they didnt give me any chance to send any evidence before taking me to court and later on I found out that the chap who had written the letter left work and no one looked at his cases for a while which is probably why it has come to this stage.

 

[some bloke]

Have you had one letter from GA with a deadline implying there won't be a hearing date if you pay, and another letter from the court giving a hearing date?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks, yep I will write to them again, the problem is they will respond in 10 working days. There is no contact number and I very much doubt they will even look at the letter I sent through the post/email by the due date which I need to respond back to the court letter. GA sent me a letter checking if the details I had provided were correct first, they didnt give me any chance to send any evidence before taking me to court and later on I found out that the chap who had written the letter left work and no one looked at his cases for a while which is probably why it has come to this stage.

Note MikeWH's reply in post #102
With the best will in the world they need time to consider your response and there is little point in my view in writing again at least not until a few days have passed.

I'm no expert of court proceedings and thus how you should respond - but logic suggests that if forced to do so then you would have to claim you are not guilty since it has been demonstrated with the info MikeWh supplied that the card was valid, and the fare paid, if undiscounted, was the correct fare.

 

[WesternLancer]

Have you had one letter from GA with a deadline implying there won't be a hearing date if you pay, and another letter from the court giving a hearing date?

Yes, as Some Bloke suggests, Skadoosh - maybe you can cover up the personal info on the letters / e-mails you have had, photograph or scan them and upload them here so it can be clearly seen what they are saying to you, just for clarity of any comments to be made on where things now are.

 

[some bloke]

I called GA Customer Services and after an initial response that the prosecution department aren't operating, was given this number:

0330 109 7484

 

[Skadoosh]

Yes, as Some Bloke suggests, Skadoosh - maybe you can cover up the personal info on the letters / e-mails you have had, photograph or scan them and upload them here so it can be clearly seen what they are saying to you, just for clarity of any comments to be made on where things now are.

Thanks guys, I have attached the court letter and the settlement offer which was in the same pack. Let me know if you need anything else. @WesternLancer @MikeWh based on your experience, is the court date as specified on the letter or will I get a new date since I will be pleading not guilty provided GA continue with the case?

 

[najaB]

As an aside, I wonder about the legality of using a 0870 number for this kind of issue.

 

[ainsworth74]

Wow, an 0870 number if you want to accept their offer. That's certainly immoral if nothing else!

 

[Skadoosh]

As an aside, I wonder about the legality of using a 0870 number for this kind of issue.

Well, that and also the letter being printed in red I just find it wrong whichever way you look at it, they are trying to scare people just so they will just go ahead and pay the penalty.

 

[Darandio]

Well, that and also the letter being printed in red I just find it wrong whichever way you look at it, they are trying to scare people just so they will just go ahead and pay the penalty.

I wouldn't really read much into the use of red, if it's okay for TV Licensing to threaten innocent people with red text then I guess it's fair game for anyone.

 

[Skadoosh]

Found a telephone number for prosecutions, 0330 109 7484, no one picks up the phone and I get a recording to leave a voicemail, but the call cuts off.

 

[ukkid]

So much wrong with the prosecution. I would plead not guilty to the SJPN.

Is it true they failed to retain the oyster card?

Even if a valid defence had not been available (as set out above), if the Defendant pleaded NG and went to a full hearing, GA would struggle to prosecute. They failed to retain the evidence to produce at trial, the oystercard.

As an aside, (or further aside) in cases like these it might be worth ccing your MP, their customer servIces and CEO, and informing the TOC you intend to write to the CPS and request they take over the prosecution and withdraw it as there is no case to answer. The op may have to if GA decide to continue.

The CPS may not even take any interest. However stating this intention and knowing they are under scrutiny by other parties might make their prosecutions dept think twice and review the case properly, before proceeding with such baseless cases. I wonder if this is what the forum should advise when an offence has not occured and the TOC have got it wrong.