Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[mpb56125]

That would have been the PLPR test train with 73's

Realtime Trains - 188C 2129 Crewe C.S. (L&Nwr Site) to Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail)

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Mark

https://mark5812.smugmug.com/

 

[MR-507508]

Another pass around 3 am through port sunlight this morning.

Was this one of the new 777 units?
There was a working on the Wirral early hours this morning running as 5T08 but I think this was a 507/508 since if ended at Rock Ferry and started in service at Rock Ferry this morning?
There was also an engineering train running of the Wirral early hours.
There was testing overnight of the one of the new units (as 5T01) on the Ormskirk/Kirkby lines.

 

[Pacef8]

No idea its was brighter and far quicker than the derby noisy test trains that occasionally pass.

 

[paddyb6]

5T08 was a 507/508 and 1Q91, a pair of 73s on a PLPR test train went through, No 777s down the Chester/Ellesmere Port line yesterday. Last one was 003 in the early hours of Saturday.

 

[JeffMersey]

I wondered if anyone had any info on the class 777 arriving in the UK in the next few weeks ? It doesn’t look like I’ll be back up north for a while so I would love to try catch a view elsewhere.
thanks

 

[Harryn9000]

I wondered if anyone had any info on the class 777 arriving in the UK in the next few weeks ? It doesn’t look like I’ll be back up north for a while so I would love to try catch a view elsewhere.
thanks

follow youtube mate any trains coming in will travel through europe first

 

[MR-507508]

I wondered if anyone had any info on the class 777 arriving in the UK in the next few weeks ? It doesn’t look like I’ll be back up north for a while so I would love to try catch a view elsewhere.
thanks

It looks as though the next move could happen on 8th July. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H01810/2020-07-08/detailed
The moves are always booked in for a Wednesday but not all run.
This move however looks more promising since the schedule has been altered compared to the other schedules which are planned every Wednesday.

 

[urbophile]

Clearly, and for obvious reasons, the arrival of these units is behind schedule. Does anyone know how far behind, and how long it will be before the full complement of new trains is up and running?

 

[Vespa]

I spotted one in the yard at Kirkdale yesterday but it was too far to take a photo of it.
First time I've seen it with my own eyes.

 

[paddyb6]

Testing is happening overnight most days, but it will be a while yet as testing continues across the network.

 

[Jamesrob637]

One working prior to the 31st of December just so that Merseyrail can say that they entered service in 2020

Memories of TPE with the 68s 2.5 years ago!

 

[chiltern trev]

Assorted questions.

Q1. Voltage level at Southport. I recall reading that the voltage at Southport has been described as low and the 507/508 being old technology can cope with a significant voltage drop but the 777 might not. Has the voltage drop now been remediated? If not, is one 777 ok to run to Southport in the early hours when it maybe the only unit operating in the voltage drop area?

Q2. Platform and signalling at Southport. I recall reading that there was a problem with the length platform 3 and the signalling system in that it was suggested that 2 x 777 would fit in the platform but the length would give rise to signalling issues, i.e. still sitting on the track circuit for point(s) at the end of the platform and thus preventing the signalling system from working properly - or similar. What is the current status?

Q3. Power and efficiency. The new 777 has been stated as accelerating fast and having a lot of power (e.g. 2 or 3 times a 507/508). So what motor technology is being used - AC motors? and what technology is used instead of the old style resistors banks on 502 and 507/508 to reduce the line voltage?
If the new motors have a lot more power then at first glance it might appear to use 2 or 3 times as many amps and thus cost more. However, what is the efficiency of the new 777 in converting 3rd rail volts/amps into power at the wheel/railhead compared to a resistor bank unit? Perhaps it is much more efficient? On a resistor bank unit, to start moving a lot of electricity is fed into the resistors (and wasted as heat) so the 3rd rail volts/amps to power at the wheel/railhead will be very low, say 10% (assumes the resistors cut the 750 dc down to 75v to the motors, for example = 75/750) and thus 90% wastage. So what is the 777 comparable rating? I am guessing if a 777 uses chopper type technology for an AC motor, does that give 100% efficiency as you are not wasting electricity as resistor heat? In which case having motors that are 2x or 3x more powerful actually uses a lot less electricity, say 1/2 or 1/3.

 

[samuelmorris]

I can't speak for the infrastructure but they will be AC 3-phase motors using inverters from the DC supply. These are undoubtedly more efficient than the resistor banks of old but most of the performance gains come from more powerful traction motors (and thus, more current draw) - also bear in mind that with air-conditioning in use, the non-traction power draw of the units will often be higher than that of those they replaced. Inverters (and of course the motors themselves) are not 100% efficient, however, there are still some losses.

 

[Domh245]

Not quite 100% efficiency with inverters (nothing ever is!) but certainly much higher than resistor banks.

 

[D365]

Not quite 100% efficiency with inverters (nothing ever is!) but certainly much higher than resistor banks.

Definitely above 90% efficiency.

 

[Ribbleman]

Assorted questions.

Q1. Voltage level at Southport. I recall reading that the voltage at Southport has been described as low and the 507/508 being old technology can cope with a significant voltage drop but the 777 might not. Has the voltage drop now been remediated? If not, is one 777 ok to run to Southport in the early hours when it maybe the only unit operating in the voltage drop area?

Q2. Platform and signalling at Southport. I recall reading that there was a problem with the length platform 3 and the signalling system in that it was suggested that 2 x 777 would fit in the platform but the length would give rise to signalling issues, i.e. still sitting on the track circuit for point(s) at the end of the platform and thus preventing the signalling system from working properly - or similar. What is the current status?

Q3. Power and efficiency. The new 777 has been stated as accelerating fast and having a lot of power (e.g. 2 or 3 times a 507/508). So what motor technology is being used - AC motors? and what technology is used instead of the old style resistors banks on 502 and 507/508 to reduce the line voltage?
If the new motors have a lot more power then at first glance it might appear to use 2 or 3 times as many amps and thus cost more. However, what is the efficiency of the new 777 in converting 3rd rail volts/amps into power at the wheel/railhead compared to a resistor bank unit? Perhaps it is much more efficient? On a resistor bank unit, to start moving a lot of electricity is fed into the resistors (and wasted as heat) so the 3rd rail volts/amps to power at the wheel/railhead will be very low, say 10% (assumes the resistors cut the 750 dc down to 75v to the motors, for example = 75/750) and thus 90% wastage. So what is the 777 comparable rating? I am guessing if a 777 uses chopper type technology for an AC motor, does that give 100% efficiency as you are not wasting electricity as resistor heat? In which case having motors that are 2x or 3x more powerful actually uses a lot less electricity, say 1/2 or 1/3.

In part answer to your first question I can tell you that work is ongoing to upgrade the power supply on the Southport line. I recall David Powell, who is in charge of the acquisition of the new stock for Merseytravel, being quoted as saying that the work would be completed by the end of this year. Before lockdown there was a contractor on site just south of Hillside station where there is an original L & Y building housing power feed equipment. Volker Rail have been on site at Hightown for some time carrying out part of the project. I believe that the voltage drop is more of an issue on the Ormskirk line.
Regarding the signal clearance issue at Southport, one option that was being looked at was to extend Platforms 2 and 3 at the buffer stop end which will require concourse alterations, but I've not heard anything further recently.

 

[Laryk]

In part answer to your first question I can tell you that work is ongoing to upgrade the power supply on the Southport line. I recall David Powell, who is in charge of the acquisition of the new stock for Merseytravel, being quoted as saying that the work would be completed by the end of this year. Before lockdown there was a contractor on site just south of Hillside station where there is an original L & Y building housing power feed equipment. Volker Rail have been on site at Hightown for some time carrying out part of the project. I believe that the voltage drop is more of an issue on the Ormskirk line.
Regarding the signal clearance issue at Southport, one option that was being looked at was to extend Platforms 2 and 3 at the buffer stop end which will require concourse alterations, but I've not heard anything further recently.

Regarding the power supply upgrades:

• New grid feeder sites at Hillside and Bidston
• Additional grid feeder at Bromborough
• New track feeder substations between Maghull and Aughton Park (last I knew name yet to be decided -possibly Butchers Lane), between Walton Junction and Fazakerley (Long Lane) and at Capenhurst.
• Upgrade of Port Sunlight Track Paralleling Hut to track feeder.

 

[Skie]

Lots of older feeder equipment has been replaced with modern kit, too. Rail engineer had an article, it's vanished but the google cache has it stored here: https://webcache.googleusercontent....+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-b-d

 

[Pacef8]

The bidston triangle seems to be getting all the volker attention from what i have seen tonight and little diggers doing little digger stuff all day at port sunlight .

 

[HSTEd]

In addition in theory the 3rd rail specification, or at the least the traditional one, is supposed to require trains to reduce current draw in a low voltage situation.

But my set of standards documents dates from the Railtrack era.....

 

[Vespa]

The bidston triangle seems to be getting all the volker attention from what i have seen tonight and little diggers doing little digger stuff all day at port sunlight .

I've noticed all that work going on at Port Sunlight, guessed it was to do with the new 777 train.

 

[Energy]

Lots of older feeder equipment has been replaced with modern kit, too. Rail engineer had an article, it's vanished but the google cache has it stored here: https://webcache.googleusercontent....+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-b-d

Here, https://www.railengineer.co.uk/bringing-more-power-to-merseyrail/ Rail Engineer just changed the URL to not include the date.

 

[Laryk]

Lots of older feeder equipment has been replaced with modern kit, too. Rail engineer had an article, it's vanished but the google cache has it stored here: https://webcache.googleusercontent....+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-b-d

Interesting article. Whilst we are getting new HV feeding equipment at sites that require it due to the addition of new HV feeders (Maghull, for example) the majority of substations remain unaffected by the works. The picture of "HV Feeders" in the article are actually DC Track Feeder Switches - a project unrelated to the power supply upgrade, these have been installed to provide (ultimately) automatic isolation and shorting of track sections. All other substations still retain existing HV and DC switchgear.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

It can’t do all 3 at the same time. All units have some batteries for depot moves, but for mainline running the extra batteries go in the same space that the rectifiers for 25kv would go.

So they can do:

• 3rd rail (as delivered)
• 3rd rail + mainline batteries
• 3rd rail + 25kv overhead

Does anyone know when a unit with batteries installed suitable for mainline running will be delivered as I thought I had read somewhere the battery option had been pulled, as least for now.

 

[Skie]

Interesting article. Whilst we are getting new HV feeding equipment at sites that require it due to the addition of new HV feeders (Maghull, for example) the majority of substations remain unaffected by the works. The picture of "HV Feeders" in the article are actually DC Track Feeder Switches - a project unrelated to the power supply upgrade, these have been installed to provide (ultimately) automatic isolation and shorting of track sections. All other substations still retain existing HV and DC switchgear.

Interesting, thanks! Will that mean the electrical areas are divided into smaller sections, reducing the impact of an isolation?

 

[Laryk]

Interesting, thanks! Will that mean the electrical areas are divided into smaller sections, reducing the impact of an isolation?

They are replacing TIS's, (Track Isolating Switches) which are the little grey boxes you may have noticed between the substation and the track. These boxes contain a simple knife switch operated by an insulated pole with a hook. Essentially it has been deemed deemed that they were not a safe way to isolate the track and the act of placing a bar down to short circuit the conductor rail to the running rail was also not ideal for the operator either.
For every DC track circuit breaker there was a TIS associated with it. Now, TIS is gone and a TFS (Track Feeder Switch) is in its place
So the electrical sections remain the same size, they just (potentially) make an isolation quicker, safer and easier.
The ambition is to enable the TFS's to be controllable remotely by Sandhills Electrical Control which could in theory reduce the impact of an emergency isolation (or emergency switch-off as we need to call them now) as the conductor rail can then be isolated and shorted at the click of a button.
Note - they don't take away the role of Track feeder circuit breakers, as a DC circuit breaker dealing with high current is quite specialised, and a TFS can only be operated with the track dead.

Here's some pictures inside

 

[Ribbleman]

Does anyone know when a unit with batteries installed suitable for mainline running will be delivered as I thought I had read somewhere the battery option had been pulled, as least for now.

The project to fit large batteries to unit 006 was temporarily shelved when Stadler said that they could not find a way of keeping them cool without developing a bespoke system. Subsequently Liverpool City Region, who control Merseytravel, found the necessary funding. The last I heard was that the batteries will now be fitted to unit 008. However, that was at least 6 months ago and Covid-19 may well have caused a delay to the experiment. A great deal is hanging on the trial being a success with ambitions to run beyond the current limits of the third rail to Wigan, Preston, Warrington and some way towards Wrexham.

 

[Pacef8]

Does it mean that we will not be getting a large green transformer box in port sunlight similar to capenhurst.

 

[Camden]

A great deal is hanging on the trial being a success with ambitions to run beyond the current limits of the third rail to Wigan, Preston, Warrington and some way towards Wrexham.

Only because of the blocks put in the way of third rail development. The recent government advertisement to find companies to investigate ways to deploy third rail within the current legislative framework suggests a change of heart somewhere. Batteries are obviously still a good thing to continue to try and develop, but especially for longer extensions proper third rail would be better.

 

[Laryk]

Does it mean that we will not be getting a large green transformer box in port sunlight similar to capenhurst.

Port Sunlight will be receiving the same kit as Capenhurst, minus the DC module as the existing building already houses track feeder circuit breakers. Can't tell you what colour you'll get though!