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Face coverings to become mandatory in shops in England (includes poll)

What is your view on wearing face masks in shops?


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ashkeba

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Because, as I've suggested previously, the average IQ of people on these forums is considerably higher than that on Facebook. And intelligent people analyse facts and figures and want rational justification for having their life inconvenienced. The requirement for masks has come when infection levels are continuing downwards with NO evidence or justification for their mandation. Which in itself means there's no exit parameters defined either. And for the avoidance of doubt making Karen from Facebook feel safer is not a valid justification.
Levels are only falling 2-5% a day. In some regions not at all. More needs doing to reduce it.

I agree an objective exit condition should be set.

99.9998% of the time people are going to be protecting other people from something they haven't got.
0.0002% of the UK is about 1300 people. There are currently 400 new cases a day so I do not agree there are as few as 1300 infected people walking around.
 
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87electric

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Does anybody remember when the experts boldly predicting that covid was not seasonal? Anyone?



A bit like yourself, I've taken quite a large step back from the media (something I cover a bit more in the media thread). However I do still dip in to gauge the mood, and something recently occurred to me when thinking why quite so many people I know were almost desperate for masks to be mandated. In a lot of the debates I've been having, and I've had a lot, the issue of masks has really polarised views as we see on these forums. But one thing has struck me, more often than not people arguing for masks reach out to articles that have popped up on the BBC website. At first I thought nothing of it, in media terms its a pretty much middle of the road outlet, although one I've found myself increasingly fed up with over the years.

And then I wondered why I was fed up with BBC News, and it struck me. Over the years I can remember getting annoyed at their latest medical / dietary scare stories, of which there have been a lot. In fact for whatever reason, the BBC has been a bit of a nagging outlet, constantly reminding us that those little food treats in life we often enjoy are bad for us and we might die, that if having the odd glass of wine might lead us to die, that if you don't go to the gym every day you might die, you know basically trying to guilt us into a healthier lifestyle. It was here that it struck me. Ever since the pandemic began, the BBC have increasingly been using pictures of people with masks, even when the context does not require it. Basically be it inadvertently or deliberately (I'll leave you to decide which is the case) the BBC has been normalising masks.

Its a well known technique, rather than blasting a message through society, you offer an idea or concept through nudging it more subliminally. In this case increasingly numbers of pictures of people with masks on, even though most people haven't been wearing them. Then they started offering advise on how to make your own, and have repeated it ad nauseum ever since, then they add articles on how the rest of the world is doing it, and hey here's some nice graphs to demonstrate it. Then they start to question why people aren't wearing masks, and offer advice on when you might want to wear a mask. And so on. All this helps makes people think that masks are normal, rarely is there a mention of the negative side to them, just that they are just something you should get used to often referring to them as "your mask" as opposed to "a mask". This then reflects back into the debates I have when people ask me why I'm not wearing "my mask", and why despite repeated links to both the scientific debates on the matter from both sides, and the data that clearly shows despite a very low ratio of people wearing them in public, the infection rates are coming down, the people I debate with continue to assert that we need masks to eradicate the virus.

Sadly for those of us sceptical on the benefits of them stopping spread, cynical about them offering any protection, and even concerned that poorly used ones could actually make things worse, this nudging technique employed by the BBC and others has been effective. Many people now actually believe that masks can save them from the virus, and any guilt they have been made to feel. More than just being a placebo, masks are rapidly becoming the security blanket of the nation, and I can only see them being forced into more & more situations, who knows maybe the nation's enforced collective guilt ("Stay Home, Protect The NHS, Save Lives, For You Are The Unclean") will see masks making their way across our doorsteps?

What's the next catchphrase? "Wear Masks, Be Free From Guilt, Massage Someone's Fragile Sense Of Security Because We Scared The Bejeezus Out Of Them"?

Your observations are 100% correct. It is all gradual manipulation of perceptions until the desired result is achieved. Those of us who are “awake” see through this nudging.
TV programming isn’t called programming for nothing.
 

ashkeba

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Given the criticism they are getting, do you seriously believe that if the govermnment actually had any crdible evidence they wouldn't have produced it by now?
I think they are busy now and people aren't asking them. Anti-maskers seem to be shouting on social media instead of asking those who know.
 

adc82140

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The evidence has been adequately explained so many times, on radio, TV, in newspapers, but to quote an old saying: "There's none so blind as those who will not see."

It has not been scientifically explained in any way. It has been presented as a fait accompli. The "evidence has changed" without backing it up is not evidence. Where are the results of the test where they fired covid infected droplets at a mask and measured what came out the other side?
 

DB

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The usual response. No, I have neither the time nor inclination at the moment. If you were really interested yuo would have found some of the many reports on the (not absolute but worthwhile) additional protection that everybody wearing face coverings in restricted spaces would afford everybody else.

I have read all the scientific reports I can find online, and none of them have provided this claimed "growing evidence", even the recent ones.

Afraid your answer gives the appearance of trying to dodge the issue - exactly as the politicians are doing.

I think they are busy now and people aren't asking them. Anti-maskers seem to be shouting on social media instead of asking those who know.

Sorry, but that's really not credible. If they had made their decision on the basis of this alleged evidence, they would have it immeditely to hand and would have produced it to support their policy.
 

talldave

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Levels are only falling 2-5% a day. In some regions not at all. More needs doing to reduce it.

I agree an objective exit condition should be set.


0.0002% of the UK is about 1300 people. There are currently 400 new cases a day so I do not agree there are as few as 1300 infected people walking around.
I wasn't referring to the total number of infections. I was referring to the number of person to person contacts that each individual has in a shop. Just as it would take a year of bus travel before I end up on the same bus as an infected person and be anywhere near them, I can probably shop for a year before encountering an infected person. Oh and when I encounter that person, I'm probably not going to catch anything unless we linger over the yoghurts for 15 minutes.
 

Bishopstone

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I was in the ‘anti’ camp, though never vehemently so. I remain unconvinced that the policy will achieve a key objective of restoring confidence to go travelling; go shopping, get the economy going etc.

That said: I spent 7 hours masked whilst travelling (mostly) and shopping (a little) yesterday. I got used to it, the glasses stopped fogging after half an hour, and seeing almost everyone else in masks and behaving considerately reminded me that this is a shared endeavour.

Yes, the impact on viral spread will be marginal at best - no point in over-egging the benefits - but I concluded that the inconvenience was also marginal enough to justify embracing the change, at a critical juncture as we re-open.

Better masked and roaming freely, than sat at home getting vexed.
 

ashkeba

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This is one I been using on the train between March and Cambridge. As you can see It wraps a round the face which is all that is required. Plus it also covers the eyes unlike a cloth face maskView attachment 80728
I do think it odd that so many against a cloth over their nose are happy to wear a chainsaw hood, but if it works and reduces spread by redirecting your spray mostly down your front then I am happy for it.
 

Yew

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No, not wearing one is selfish. You wear your mask to protect me, I wear my mask to protect you. They provide almost no protection at all for the individual (which is why there's confusion about them - the realisation that they work this way round came later from original pronouncements of them being ineffective).


Once again, the view that masks provide a statistically significant effect on transmission is not substantiated by randomised control trials for community settings that I've been able to find.
 

adc82140

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I prefer the visor because it doesn't hide your facial expressions, and you can retain a bit of human subtlety when interacting with others.
 

CaptainHaddock

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Another issue that hasn't really been covered is how on earth are you supposed to communicate with the staff whilst in a shop? Obviousoly you can't have a conversation whilst wearing a mask so how would you, for example, ask an assistant where to find an item? Roll your eyes a lot and point? Or maybe carry a chalkboard with you and write "Excuse me, where are the eggs?"???
 

Huntergreed

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Another issue that hasn't really been covered is how on earth are you supposed to communicate with the staff whilst in a shop? Obviousoly you can't have a conversation whilst wearing a mask so how would you, for example, ask an assistant where to find an item? Roll your eyes a lot and point? Or maybe carry a chalkboard with you and write "Excuse me, where are the eggs?"???
People just talk with the masks on here in Scotland from what I’ve seen.
 

takno

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Another issue that hasn't really been covered is how on earth are you supposed to communicate with the staff whilst in a shop? Obviousoly you can't have a conversation whilst wearing a mask so how would you, for example, ask an assistant where to find an item? Roll your eyes a lot and point? Or maybe carry a chalkboard with you and write "Excuse me, where are the eggs?"???
Most people can manage a basic conversation. It's not ideal, and depending on the clarity of the speakers and hearing ability of the listeners, the mask sometimes has to come down. Obviously at that point any possible benefits of mask wearing for the entire trip or shift are probably negated, but that's just science nonsense innit.
 

Yew

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It doesn't need to be within your definition of 'Normal'. I clearly remember all the self-righteous twits saying that wearing a seat belt wasn't normal, democratic, safe (usually with some erroneous contrived circumstance that in their minds made wearing of a seat belt more dangerous) to their limited knowledge etc.. Same goes for the decades when smoking was known by experts to be dangerous, yet there were many (and still are a few) who were completely in denial of the science.
The big difference here is that wearing a face covering (note that objectors persist in claiming that face masks are mandated), is an act to contribute to society's wellbeing as a whole, not just the individual. Apart from those with a medically confirmed antisocial personality, that says a lot about those continually looking for excuses not to comply.*

* A section of the population has genuine health reasons for not being able to wear masks, a much larger part doesn't.
The fundamental difference is that the science for smoking and seatbelts is well understood and (as near as can be in our complex, multi-faceted world) unambiguous. Whereas the case for masks is not so. It almost seems that the higher "quality" the research, the less effectiveness is shown.
 

Bletchleyite

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I prefer the visor because it doesn't hide your facial expressions, and you can retain a bit of human subtlety when interacting with others.

Though visors don't do well to protect others from you (though they do protect you from others to an extent). Typically in hospitals they're won with a mask.
 

takno

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Though visors don't do well to protect others from you (though they do protect you from others to an extent). Typically in hospitals they're won with a mask.
I do like they way they are being worn in hairdressers - mask-free and at a jaunty angle, thus diverting all the deadly droplets straight down and at the customer.
 

Bletchleyite

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I do like they way they are being worn in hairdressers - mask-free and at a jaunty angle, thus diverting all the deadly droplets straight down and at the customer.

Yes, wearing PPE incorrectly is far worse than not wearing it. And customers can't really wear something as it'd get in the way of the haircut.
 

LowLevel

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Another issue that hasn't really been covered is how on earth are you supposed to communicate with the staff whilst in a shop? Obviousoly you can't have a conversation whilst wearing a mask so how would you, for example, ask an assistant where to find an item? Roll your eyes a lot and point? Or maybe carry a chalkboard with you and write "Excuse me, where are the eggs?"???

I must have been imagining all those years of my dentist talking away at me perfectly in a perfectly intelligible way :lol:

We have 2 types of masks issued at work. Cotton 3 layer washable things that look like they're surgical masks.

Disposable 3 layer "not medical" surgical masks.

It is easy to talk with the latter but perfectly possible with the former albeit you have to be a bit louder.
 

nlogax

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Better masked and roaming freely, than sat at home getting vexed.

Exactly. Staying home, getting vexed -and- complaining that the economy won't withstand this.

I feel that some people are absolutely determined to make this as difficult or awkward as possible. Masks are a minor inconvenience to most. Covid has served us a brown stuff sandwich but we all need to play our part and get on with things as best we can.
 

ashkeba

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Most people can manage a basic conversation. It's not ideal, and depending on the clarity of the speakers and hearing ability of the listeners, the mask sometimes has to come down. Obviously at that point any possible benefits of mask wearing for the entire trip or shift are probably negated, but that's just science nonsense innit.
It is science nonsense unless you can explain how unhooking a mask from one ear for a few seconds and then replacing it negates the effect for the rest of the use.
 

ashkeba

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Yes, wearing PPE incorrectly is far worse than not wearing it. And customers can't really wear something as it'd get in the way of the haircut.
It is a shame that there is still no government adverts on safe mask and visir use. Other countries have been blastic this stuff out for months.
 

DB

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I feel that some people are absolutely determined to make this as difficult or awkward as possible. Masks are a minor inconvenience to most. Covid has served us a brown stuff sandwich but we all need to play our part and get on with things as best we can.

The only way to get things back to normal is quite simply a phased return to normal - which is actually what was happening until recently, but now they are bringing in new restrictions which could well slow down that return to normality - and many businesses will be in no state now to be able to withstand further delays.
 

alex397

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Another issue that hasn't really been covered is how on earth are you supposed to communicate with the staff whilst in a shop? Obviousoly you can't have a conversation whilst wearing a mask so how would you, for example, ask an assistant where to find an item? Roll your eyes a lot and point? Or maybe carry a chalkboard with you and write "Excuse me, where are the eggs?"???

You talk to them like you normally would. It’s really not that difficult.

I’ve easily talked to people while wearing my mask. Out of all the concerns about wearing masks, talking is hardly an issue.

Of course, it does make things more difficult for the hard of hearing or the deaf.
 

Enthusiast

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Indeed. It will put a great many people off from going to non-essential shops,
I do little "discretionary" shopping. I find shopping a tedious chore. But now I will do none. A weekly trip to Tescos will be about it for me. The government has made sure my discretionary spend goes online.
Most of the mask objections can be summarised as "because I don't want to".
I posted yesterday why many people in this country "don't want to". They don't like being told what to do when there is little or no credible evidence for the instruction.
No, not because I don't want to but because I can't. I cannot deal with anything over my nose and mouth for more than a couple of minutes at the absolute most.
Then you would have a "reasonable excuse".
The evidence has been adequately explained so many times, on radio, TV, in newspapers, but to quote an old saying: "There's none so blind as those who will not see."
Has it? The best I can find from the government is this:

"Evidence suggests that wearing a face covering does not protect you. However, if you are infected but have not yet developed symptoms, it may provide some protection for others you come into close contact with."

Almost all the Covid regulations have been introduced by Statutory Instrument. There has been no proper Parliamentary scrutiny of any of it. The nation's economy has been slaughtered almost beyond recovery by it and people are being subject to ever more ridiculous guidance and instruction. There is going to come a point in all this when a small straw will break the camel's back. It will probably come when those coming off furlough to find they have no job to return to have to wear a mask for their interview at the Job Centre.
 

Bantamzen

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It is science nonsense unless you can explain how unhooking a mask from one ear for a few seconds and then replacing it negates the effect for the rest of the use.

Well it goes something like this. If the mask is successfully preventing the virus past it from someone with it, the virus will accumulate in said mask. So if then someone touches that area they may transfer some of the viral load to their hands, and then if not immediately washing their hands onto surfaces where the viral load may accumulate if other people with the virus do the same. So then when someone without it comes along & touches that same area, transfers some of the load onto their hands and if they then don't immediately wash their hands they may transfer that onto their face / mask and thus into their respiratory system.

Now if you consider that some common surfaces in shops are probably more likely to transmit than a moving body of air where the virus will be dissipated rather than accumulated, you might see where a problem could lie. All of this was heavily discussed and considered at the start of the epidemic, and remained the position of the WHO (and possibly still is).
 

Domh245

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'Temporary' my foot

There are no plans to make face coverings mandatory for office workers in England, Matt Hancock has said.

The health secretary told BBC Breakfast people working in offices would not need to cover up, despite a newspaper report suggesting they would.

"It is something we've looked at and rejected," he said, but added masks would be worn elsewhere by the public "for the foreseeable future".

my bold
 

CaptainHaddock

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Whilst searching for evidence about the effectiveness of facemasks I came across this excellent site


There is no strong medical consensus on whether face masks help outside of health care settings. However, there does seem to be evidence that they can have negative health effects for the wearer.
According to HM Government guidance for restaurants, pubs, bars and takeaway services, 24 June 2020:
“The evidence suggests that wearing a face covering does not protect you…evidence of the benefit of using a face covering to protect others is weak.”

Leaving face masks aside, it looks like the whole website is an excellent resource that collates the facts about the virus and the way it's been handled and reported.


Unlike many online sources, the site's reports are based on scientific evidence backed up by experts in their field. Hopefully people will find their evidence reassuring!
 

DB

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Whilst searching for evidence about the effectiveness of facemasks I came across this excellent site




Leaving face masks aside, it looks like the whole website is an excellent resource that collates the facts about the virus and the way it's been handled and reported.


Unlike many online sources, the site's reports are based on scientific evidence backed up by experts in their field. Hopefully people will find their evidence reassuring!

Thanks for that link - a useful site there.
 

bramling

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Most of the mask objections can be summarised as "because I don't want to".

I don’t think that’s the case at all. Ignoring civil liberties, there seem to be four main strands of objection - all of which seem very reasonable to me.
1) Risk of spreading infection through incorrect use, which based on what we see on transport is a very real problem that doesn’t seem to have a ready solution
2) Discomfort to many
3) Impact on those who have issues preventing them wearing a mask, in particular the very real risk of them being singled out and on the receiving end of abuse.
4) Putting shop staff in a difficult position when it comes to enforcement and dealing with conflict.

All of these seem very valid to me, and no one has yet offered any robust mitigations to these issues. With Boris’s legendary lack of attention to detail I don’t trust him to deal with these problems adequately.

Add in that the evidence really hasn’t been shown to people, which if you’re wanting to get mass buy-in to an idea is really essential, especially an idea which relies on people taking the trouble to do things properly and correctly. Because of all these factors it simply feels like being seen to do something, so it’s not really surprising many are cynical about it.

We can also add to that the issue of people finding it all too much hassle to bother going to the shops. Just from personal experience, I'm already buying books and DVDs online having made use of an excellent online supplier, and we've found a family member who seems to have a gift in amateur hairdressing, the hairdresser experience being something I've never been over keen on anyway. Creating masses of extra hassle is not the way to entice people back to their old ways, so there needs to be a *really strong* case for doing it, if there is for this measure then it falls to the government to demonstrate that - thusfar they really haven't.
 
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Mag_seven

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I'd like to see evidence that breathing back in your own CO2 is not unhealthy. No one ever seems to ask that question.
 
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