UK face coverings discussion

[Yew]

I've just seen a friend lamenting a 50% compliance rate on a trip to the shops. I thought this would last longer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe that that applies ifor ‘no-smoking in public places’ (or whatever the correct terminology for the legislation is).

Some bus stops are subject to the legal smoking ban and some not, it depends how many open sides they have.

I've just seen a friend lamenting a 50% compliance rate on a trip to the shops. I thought this would last longer.

I just popped to the Co-op and it was 100% in customers and 50% in staff (I know they're not required, but still). I also noticed, more alarmingly, that the staff were now making no effort to distance, which does suggest a significant risk of "risk compensation"[1] which could cause the effect of masks to be negative. Prior to the mask requirement they were distancing properly, this time one even reached under me to stack a shelf (so directly in the path of any potentially infected droplets).

[1] Like you get with kids in cycle helmets - they ride more dangerously because they feel safer.

 

[island]

There I must disagree with you. A "transport hub" to me means something like a bus/train interchange, not a train station. Would you class Berney Arms station as a "transport hub" for example?

Also an outdoor platform can't be classed as an enclosed public space; if it was "enclosed" how would the trains get in and out?

The term is defined clearly in the regulations, so with respect, the definition you personally ascribe to “transport hub” is irrelevant. A train station is indisputably a “transport hub” for the purpose of the legislation. Berney Arms, however, is not enclosed and a face covering is not required there.

A face covering must be worn in an enclosed railway station as defined in the Health Act regarding the smoking ban. Note that whilst the railway has extended a smoking ban via signage and the railway Byelaws to apply on non-enclosed platforms, those are not subject to the requirement to wear face coverings.

 

[island]

The definition of enclosed for the face coverings regulations is any premises meeting the definition of enclosed or substantially enclosed in the smoke-free regulations: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/3368/regulation/2/made

 

[bramling]

Some bus stops are subject to the legal smoking ban and some not, it depends how many open sides they have.



I just popped to the Co-op and it was 100% in customers and 50% in staff (I know they're not required, but still). I also noticed, more alarmingly, that the staff were now making no effort to distance, which does suggest a significant risk of "risk compensation"[1] which could cause the effect of masks to be negative. Prior to the mask requirement they were distancing properly, this time one even reached under me to stack a shelf (so directly in the path of any potentially infected droplets).

[1] Like you get with kids in cycle helmets - they ride more dangerously because they feel safer.

By contrast I've noticed quite a tailing off on transport this week. Travelling into work earlier in an unused driving cab, out of curiosity I peered through the spy hole a few times to see what was going on. 5 people in the carriage at the busiest point (all nicely spaced out it has to be said), and interestingly some could be seen to have removed their masks as the journey progressed, so at one point only one of the five was wearing one. Lady sitting immediately behind the bulkhead was quite sheepish when I emerged, I just gave her a knowing smile!

 

[trebor79]

Went to Norwich by train for a meal and some drinks with a friend this evening.
I would say full compliance on the way in. Nobody unmasked in Norwich station either, including the staff who all had masks or visors.
Now on the train home. Although everyone was masked on the concourse, some had removed them whilst walking down the platform. Majority of masks removed or turned into chin ornaments on the train. I couldn't care less as there's not that many of us, perhaps 20 on a 755/3.
I have removed my own covering as it's making my face feel prickly.

I was disappointed at the level of compliance on the way in, but slightly more cheered that people are dispensing with the nonsense on the way home.

Very concerned to see a significant minority walking through the streets wearing coverings. I really hope the government doesn't feel it necessary to extend this petty mandate to outdoor spaces.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I just popped to the Co-op and it was 100% in customers and 50% in staff (I know they're not required, but still). I also noticed, more alarmingly, that the staff were now making no effort to distance, which does suggest a significant risk of "risk compensation"[1] which could cause the effect of masks to be negative. Prior to the mask requirement they were distancing properly, this time one even reached under me to stack a shelf (so directly in the path of any potentially infected droplets).

[1] Like you get with kids in cycle helmets - they ride more dangerously because they feel safer.

This was one of the primary reasons Witty and Co were against there use initially as they would encourage people not to social distance

 

[bramling]

I just popped to the Co-op and it was 100% in customers and 50% in staff (I know they're not required, but still). I also noticed, more alarmingly, that the staff were now making no effort to distance, which does suggest a significant risk of "risk compensation"[1] which could cause the effect of masks to be negative. Prior to the mask requirement they were distancing properly, this time one even reached under me to stack a shelf (so directly in the path of any potentially infected droplets).

[1] Like you get with kids in cycle helmets - they ride more dangerously because they feel safer.

Oh dear!

Is this the seeds starting to be sewn of a change in your views on the subject?!

 

[corfield]

[1] Like you get with kids in cycle helmets - they ride more dangerously because they feel safer.

Do they? Is this recorded somewhere?

Falling off a bike hurts a lot. There is a lot of you to graze, break and so on regardless of your head.

My kids have had helmets since day 1 and they have still fallen off and grazed/bumped and cried a lot with associated crises of confidence re-taking the saddle and amended riding afterwards. I see no diffference between them doing that and how I fell off as a kid in a pre helmet era, and learned to adjust my riding to avoid falling off if at all possible.

Having aggressively mountain biked on multiple continents up and down mountains, my key objective was not to fall off at all. I cannot conceive of ever thinking “I’ll take this faster/harder because if I come off my head will have a decent chance” because I value the rest of my unprotected body and face just the same if not higher!

 

[corfield]

Some bus stops are subject to the legal smoking ban and some not, it depends how many open sides they have.



I just popped to the Co-op and it was 100% in customers and 50% in staff (I know they're not required, but still). I also noticed, more alarmingly, that the staff were now making no effort to distance, which does suggest a significant risk of "risk compensation"[1] which could cause the effect of masks to be negative. Prior to the mask requirement they were distancing properly, this time one even reached under me to stack a shelf (so directly in the path of any potentially infected droplets).

Wow that is tediously judgemental.

You realise staff would have to wear these things for hours at a time?

A bit different from your popping in and out!

I struggled, actually struggled, to wear it for 15mins in the supermarket. Several times I lifted/lowered it to get a better breath and the fresh air was needed.

I’m a healthy adult and I’ve spent a great deal of time in full on respirators.

I’ve noticed people have largely abandoned distancing now, almost back to normal - as in you dont go near people if you dont need to, if you do, for reasons of space or access, you do.

Nobody has even batted an eyelid.

It says to me the people do have a good common sense approach to this, they may be cowed by discipline to rules that are clear and enforced, but will righly undermins BS where they see it and can. and the panickers are in a decreasing majority.

There is some hope, now if only the Government could develop some courage and follow their people...

 

[LAX54]

Went to my local big Tesco's yesterday at around half nine in the morning. There was one slightly pregnant woman not wearing a covering of any sort (apart from her clothes of course!) Most of he staff had masks or a visor on, even though one was being worn under the chin.

I did notice it was quieter than it has been recently. Maybe the school holidays are having an effect?

As for the town centre, it's getting back to the kind of numbers you would normally see. Lots of face masks under the chin as people walk about.

I have a thin motorcycle neck thing as does my mother who hated the cheap masks she brought the other day.

I tbought the 'neck thing' and a scarf were now deemed not adequate to stop the spread, but they DO meet the 'cover your mouth and nose' part ? see, as clear as mud.

 

[Pete_uk]

If you are wearing a mask that hooks behind the ears, you can get 'ear savers' that takes that pressure onto the back of your head. I think one of the large, um, adult toy makers was pumping them out at a high rate of knots recently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh dear!

Is this the seeds starting to be sewn of a change in your views on the subject?!

No, rather I think the social distancing message needs to be strengthened.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You realise staff would have to wear these things for hours at a time?

They could wear visors, which are much less uncomfortable. Or even better they could maintain full 2m distancing and close the store while shelves are stacked.

I struggled, actually struggled, to wear it for 15mins in the supermarket. Several times I lifted/lowered it to get a better breath and the fresh air was needed.

I’m a healthy adult and I’ve spent a great deal of time in full on respirators.

I suspect your respiratory system is not fully healthy in that case. Those in full health should not need to do as you describe (unless it's psychological). It's not nice but it should not cause you breathing difficulties, and if it does you can claim an exemption.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

No, rather I think the social distancing message needs to be strengthened.

Or rather scrapped altogether now masks make it unnecessary. The present "sort of social distancing of 1 metre or maybe 2 metres, no-one's quite sure where and when" guidance just confuses and annoys both sides of the argument!

 

[Huntergreed]

Or rather scrapped altogether now masks make it unnecessary. The present "sort of social distancing of 1 metre or maybe 2 metres, no-one's quite sure where and when" guidance just confuses and annoys both sides of the argument!

Problem is the government don’t share this view, and they view masks as an “additional mitigation”, meaning it should be done alongside distancing to lower the risk of transmission further.

Out of curiosity, if people had a choice between having to distance with no masks, and mandated masks everywhere but no distancing, which path would you prefer we took?

 

[Senex]

Problem is the government don’t share this view, and they view masks as an “additional mitigation”, meaning it should be done alongside distancing to lower the risk of transmission further.

Out of curiosity, if people had a choice between having tk distance with no masks, and mandated masks everywhere but no distancing, which path would you prefer we took?

For me, undoubtedly distancing—wearing a mask results in too much breathing through the mouth for comfort. Also, it would be good in that the rules would have to be much clearer. At the moment the requirement for 2 m distancing where no other mitigation is in place seems to have totally broken down amongst most of the population, despite the regular statements from the medics that it is still important.

 

[bramling]

They could wear visors, which are much less uncomfortable. Or even better they could maintain full 2m distancing and close the store while shelves are stacked.

I thought there was a view which says visits are ineffective? Certainly I can see how this might be likely due to the rather large gap at the bottom.

 

[birchesgreen]

They could wear visors, which are much less uncomfortable. Or even better they could maintain full 2m distancing and close the store while shelves are stacked.

Some (all?) supermarkets do most of their restocking at night though obviously things will run out during the day, especially perishables. Closing the store to put some more milk on the shelf is a bit unworkable IMO.

 

[Jamiescott1]

First trip into town since July 4th.
The town was very very quiet, a lot more quiet than on a week day before I went on holiday (and its now school holidays)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or rather scrapped altogether now masks make it unnecessary. The present "sort of social distancing of 1 metre or maybe 2 metres, no-one's quite sure where and when" guidance just confuses and annoys both sides of the argument!

Masks don't make it unnecessary. Though as they provide some mitigation, you could make masks stricter (to be worn in all indoor public places except when actually eating/drinking) and make it a fixed 1m rather than the plus thing.

I thought there was a view which says visits are ineffective? Certainly I can see how this might be likely due to the rather large gap at the bottom.

Visors are more about protecting the wearer than masks, but they do provide some protection.

 

[ainsworth74]

Sneezing whilst wearing a mask was very odd experience I have to say. Firstly because I had to fight the automatic response of sneezing into my elbow but then the sensation of a sudden blast of air into the mask compared with a normal exhalation was quite odd in and of itself!

 

[Richard Scott]

Masks don't make it unnecessary. Though as they provide some mitigation, you could make masks stricter (to be worn in all indoor public places except when actually eating/drinking) and make it a fixed 1m rather than the plus thing.



Visors are more about protecting the wearer than masks, but they do provide some protection.

Where are you getting your mask information from? There is little if any evidence about effective of masks. You keeping on trotting out they provide some mitigation isn't swaying my opinion on the fact that masks offer no benefit. I know if someone says something often enough everyone starts to believe it but don't think it's working here. I'd like to see some good hard scientific evidence no some anecdotal evidence.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where are you getting your mask information from? There is little if any evidence about effective of masks. You keeping on trotting out they provide some mitigation isn't swaying my opinion on the fact that masks offer no benefit. I know if someone says something often enough everyone starts to believe it but don't think it's working here. I'd like to see some good hard scientific evidence no some anecdotal evidence.

Take your pick:

scientific evidence on face coverings - Google Search

www.google.com

 

[corfield]

They could wear visors, which are much less uncomfortable. Or even better they could maintain full 2m distancing and close the store while shelves are stacked.



I suspect your respiratory system is not fully healthy in that case. Those in full health should not need to do as you describe (unless it's psychological). It's not nice but it should not cause you breathing difficulties, and if it does you can claim an exemption.

Or perhaps you could keep your silly amateur diagnosis to yourself? Bearing in mind I know that I consistently get one ofnthe highest scores possible on a cardio intensive fitness test annually...

Indeed your jump to that is indicative of your logic generally “facts dont fit, so must be the persontime to attack them”.


Why is it so difficult to accept that large numbers of people do not experience things as you do? And that isn’t their “fault” and nor should they be forced to see it your way.

Your approach is deeply disturbing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Your approach is deeply disturbing.

As much as yours is a bit bizarre. Masks do not adversely affect the breathing, at rest, of a healthy individual (how do you think surgeons would manage if they did?). They are unpleasant but that is all. If you find they cause you respiratory distress, then you are by definition entitled to an exemption. So take that option if you feel it appropriate.

 

[corfield]

As much as yours is a bit bizarre. Masks do not adversely affect the breathing, at rest, of a healthy individual (how do you think surgeons would manage if they did?). They are unpleasant but that is all. If you find they cause you respiratory distress, then you are by definition entitled to an exemption. So take that option if you feel it appropriate.

It’s bizarre to not feel happy wearing a mask?

I don’t know (or judge) what you get up to in your private life, but for most people that is normal.

And again with the jumping to conclusions - “respiratory”. I said I struggled to wear it - the reasons were multiple, nowhere did I even mention breathing - you invented that entirely.

Your tendancy to invent arguments and jump to conclusions, to jump to diagnosing people and then to giving them medical advice - on literally nothing that justifies any of that - should if you are intelligent, give you pause for thought perhaps as to how you are not thinking very clearly and perhaps how this panic has gone to your head?

When you are also judging others, people who work in these environments and have to be inflicted with your desires - then perhaps some more empathy for others would not go amiss.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And again with the jumping to conclusions - “respiratory”. I said I struggled to wear it - the reasons were multiple, nowhere did I even mention breathing - you invented that entirely.

I struggled, actually struggled, to wear it for 15mins in the supermarket. Several times I lifted/lowered it to get a better breath and the fresh air was needed.

Please see my quote of your earlier post.

I don't, to be honest, see that I'm missing any empathy. If a mask causes you breathing issues, severe distress or any other of the exemptions, simply don't wear one. It sounds to me like it causes you more than the simple discomfort that it causes most. I would be lacking empathy if I told you to wear one despite that, and I'm not doing so - if you feel you should be exempt, then use the exemption.

 

[bramling]

Please see my quote of your earlier post.

I don't, to be honest, see that I'm missing any empathy. If a mask causes you breathing issues, severe distress or any other of the exemptions, simply don't wear one.

And then have people giving dirty “murderer” looks every time when entering a shop or travelling by train?

For many people “simply don’t wear one” is a highly unsettling experience, partly thanks to people (by admission like yourself) who take it upon themselves to go round giving hassle in various ways.

Fortunately for every one of you there’s one of me who’s doing everything possible to undo your efforts in this respect.

 

[Richard Scott]

Take your pick:

scientific evidence on face coverings - Google Search

www.google.com

That's great thanks. Most were clear as mud and not conclusive so no further forward. As usual one expert says one thing and one another so answer is they're still not sure so we're left with people wearing these things that may be doing more harm than good as people fiddle with them, reuse them etc.