East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[cle]

What would be Cambridge - Sandy - Peterborough look like in journey time, vs via Ely? Without stops or with one (to balance with Ely stop) - I wonder if that might be useful.

The Bedford-Sandy stretch, as a brand new piece of railway alignment and only doing 2-3tph each direction, wouldn't seem to be utilized to its max capacity. Freight too I guess, but tricky around Cambridge.

Continuing across Bletchley and feeding to Oxford/Aylesbury seems easiest. Same with Northampton northbound, as already adjacent to the slows. The feeding and junctions on the central and eastern sections will be fascinating to see what is possible by the future infrastructure, but what is then commercially viable. Very interesting times.

 

[A0wen]

Probably far too early to say, they usually only refer to “interchange” where the route crosses the ECML. It could just be a simple bridge. Bedford to Milton Keynes isn’t planned or allowed for anyway, as theres no suitable route in the Bletchley area as has been discussed numerous times before in this thread.

The reality is that EWR needs to be looked upon in the same way the North London Line is - it's an east-west route which intersects with pretty much every other mainline it crosses (Marylebone being the exception) with a mix of interchanges. Some are on 'main' stations such as Stratford, West Hampstead or Richmond, some on less important e.g. Highbury & Islington or Willesden Junction (in the sense they are both only serving the 'inner suburban' services in their area).

Also the NLL, whilst it handles freight, doesn't handle passenger services coming from elsewhere - so you don't have Welwyn Garden City to Stratford or Richmond services for example - that would be akin to having Peterborough to Oxford services running a bit on the ECML and a bit on EWR.

Start looking at EWR in that way and it makes a bit more sense, rather than trying to create elaborate service patterns which simply won't be viable.

 

[swt_passenger]

The reality is that EWR needs to be looked upon in the same way the North London Line is - it's an east-west route which intersects with pretty much every other mainline it crosses (Marylebone being the exception) with a mix of interchanges. Some are on 'main' stations such as Stratford, West Hampstead or Richmond, some on less important e.g. Highbury & Islington or Willesden Junction (in the sense they are both only serving the 'inner suburban' services in their area).

Also the NLL, whilst it handles freight, doesn't handle passenger services coming from elsewhere - so you don't have Welwyn Garden City to Stratford or Richmond services for example - that would be akin to having Peterborough to Oxford services running a bit on the ECML and a bit on EWR.

Start looking at EWR in that way and it makes a bit more sense, rather than trying to create elaborate service patterns which simply won't be viable.

I tend to agree, and there’s also the point that only finite capacity exists on the existing ECML through route.

What would be Cambridge - Sandy - Peterborough look like in journey time, vs via Ely? Without stops or with one (to balance with Ely stop) - I wonder if that might be useful.

The Bedford-Sandy stretch, as a brand new piece of railway alignment and only doing 2-3tph each direction, wouldn't seem to be utilized to its max capacity. Freight too I guess, but tricky around Cambridge.

Continuing across Bletchley and feeding to Oxford/Aylesbury seems easiest. Same with Northampton northbound, as already adjacent to the slows. The feeding and junctions on the central and eastern sections will be fascinating to see what is possible by the future infrastructure, but what is then commercially viable. Very interesting times.

The regularly explained official view is that there’s no capacity available to run anything to Northampton.

 

[tankertop]

Not clear that there will be a junction to the ECML - it wouldn't be cheap, and how many trains would actually use it? Passive provision, perhaps, but unless passenger numbers of PBO-Bedford/MKC are immense, it feels like a change at the interchange would suffice.

When I spoke to Simon Blanchflower earlier this year he seemed pretty certain there wouldn't be a junction with the ECML.

 

[fishwomp]

When I spoke to Simon Blanchflower earlier this year he seemed pretty certain there wouldn't be a junction with the ECML.

Realistically, if you do everything at once the cost is so high that the project never gets approved, whereas once the line opens, obvious opportunity like curves onto ECML become able to make the grade on their own merits. Sure, bit extra cost, but better to get the big thing done and no cost escalation first.

 

[Steve Harris]

The road journey according to Google maps is over an hour - the train doesn't need to hit 45 mins - in fact short of building a high speed line I doubt you'd ever achieve that.

Google doesn't always get it right though... I have travelled from a family members house in Cambridge (0.5 miles from Cambridge station) to Foxhall Stadium Ipswich (for speedway) several times and it always took bang on 60 minutes (it only ever took longer if there was several miles of roadworks on the A14). I also had to pop into Ipswich Station once on the same journey and that was pretty much 60 minutes too... I did drive into Ipswich a different way to that suggested by Google though !

To be fair I last did the journey just over 5 years ago.. the traffic couldn't of slowed down that much surely ??

Cambridge station IS pretty central - the centre is only about 1 mile away which is no worse than many places.

As I'm Cambridge born and bred I'm afraid to inform you Cambridge Station isn't Central, as Cambridge University didn't agree to have dirty steam trains in the center of their town (as it was then). As a side note.. the topic of the station not being in the center has been discussed before on this very forum, but I can't currently find it.

It takes about 30 minutes to walk to the Grand Arcade from the Station (most Cambridge people consider Lion Yard to be the center btw). But if you was to go on where a Road Atlas defines the Center of Cambridge to be, you would be even further North... Mitchams Corner to be precise !!

I am from a family who have had members living in and around Cambridge for over 100 years so I hope I have some "local knowledge" by now.

 

[daodao]

As I'm Cambridge born and bred I'm afraid to inform you Cambridge Station isn't Central, as Cambridge University didn't agree to have dirty steam trains in the center of their town (as it was then). As a side note, the topic of the station not being in the center has been discussed before on this very forum, but I can't currently find it. It takes about 30 minutes to walk to the Grand Arcade from the Station (most Cambridge people consider Lion Yard to be the center btw). But if you was to go on where a Road Atlas defines the Center of Cambridge to be, you would be even further North... Mitchams Corner to be precise !! I am from a family who have had members living in and around Cambridge for over 100 years so I hope I have some "local knowledge" by now.

I agree. Personally, I would have defined the centre of Cambridge as Market Square, which is about 2 km from the station (20-24 minutes walk) and isn't very far from Lion Yard. FYI, in post 1896 of this (lengthy) thread, I stated that "The remote siting of Cambridge's station from the city centre does not encourage rail traffic (particularly short-distance journeys) to it." when commenting on the potential of commuter traffic to Cambridge using the proposed E-W line.

 

[Tobbes]

I agree. Personally, I would have defined the centre of Cambridge as Market Square, which is about 2 km from the station (20-24 minutes walk) and isn't very far from Lion Yard. FYI, in post 1896 of this (lengthy) thread, I stated that "The remote siting of Cambridge's station from the city centre does not encourage rail traffic (particularly short-distance journeys) to it." when commenting on the potential of commuter traffic to Cambridge using the proposed E-W line.

Agreed. Which is why a Cambridge tram (like with rails......) is such a good idea!

 

[daodao]

Agreed. Which is why a Cambridge tram (like with rails......) is such a good idea!

Why? There is no way a tram can easily serve the congested narrow streets to the north of Cambridge city centre. Pre-WW1, there was a horse-drawn tram network in Cambridge with 2 routes, including a short one from the station to the city centre, but even in the heyday of tramway electrification, it was not considered to be worthy of investment, and was abandoned.

 

[A0wen]

Why? There is no way a tram can easily serve the congested narrow streets to the north of Cambridge city centre. Pre-WW1, there was a horse-drawn tram network in Cambridge with 2 routes, including a short one from the station to the city centre, but even in the heyday of tramway electrification, it was not considered to be worthy of investment, and was abandoned.

Because for some posters around here the solution *has* to involve something on rails regardless of cost or practicalities - a bit like the bizarre and impractical suggestion of a tramway around St Albans to link Abbey station, city centre and City station in a town entirely unsuited to such an installation.

 

[Class 170101]

Segregation of modes is needed unfotrunately as buses get caught up in the traffic congestion of Cambridge.

 

[Bald Rick]

Segregation of modes is needed unfotrunately as buses get caught up in the traffic congestion of Cambridge.

Not on the busway!

 

[Class 170101]

Not on the busway!

Of course but in the city centre....

 

[camflyer]

I'm not Cambridge born or bred but I have lived and worked around the city for over 20 years. I'm one of those economic migrants adding to Cambridge's congestion and other problems.

However, Cambridge isn't an unique city and doesn't face anything that other similar sized old cities across Europe. Elsewhere the solution has been to get rid of traffic in the city centre as much as possible. If you want fast, frequent and reliable public transport as well as a better environment then the cars and delivery vans have to go.

Cambridge is also one of the wealthiest cities in the country with supposedly some of the best brains in the world (though none seem to work for the city council) and hundreds of innovative companies we we should be leading the world not coming up with half baked ideas such as extra bus lanes.

 

[richieb1971]

These look more like "poor connectivity" zones rather than new alignments.

When I go up north I see much better EW connectivity than I do down south. Anywhere on the EW alignment with Banbury, Nuneaton, Leicester, Birmingham and Peterborough is much better supported by rail. At least from one end to the other. I'm no historian but I do believe on the Midland mainline there were connections through Bedford, Wellingborough and Market Harborough.

If EWR is serious about freight putting a triangle on the EMCL crossing at Tempsford seems like a big win to me. It gives options to anything from Felixstowe going to the West completely bypassing Peterborough and Leicester. I believe the W10 gauge is supported north of Bedford and we know its supported around Wigston Junction because freightliners already use it. I am sure any charter trains would love to use such a junction too.

 

[A0wen]

If EWR is serious about freight putting a triangle on the EMCL crossing at Tempsford seems like a big win to me. It gives options to anything from Felixstowe going to the West completely bypassing Peterborough and Leicester. I believe the W10 gauge is supported north of Bedford and we know its supported around Wigston Junction because freightliners already use it. I am sure any charter trains would love to use such a junction too.

You wouldn't need a junction at Tempsford though - you'd simply send such freight via Cambridge to access EWR.

What you *need* to understand is the destination of the freight from Felixstowe - no doubt some might be DIRFT so avoiding Peterboro and Leicester could be an advantage. But where else? If the final destination is north of Peterboro or Leicester then EWR is irrelevant.

And no business case for major infrastructure has ever been built on charter trains and never will.

 

[mwmbwls]

Forgive me if I have missed a link - but could you be link enough to provide a source link and a key to the diagram. Thanks.

 

[edwin_m]

Forgive me if I have missed a link - but could you be link enough to provide a source link and a key to the diagram. Thanks.

Yes it's pretty much incomprehensible out of context and with the key cropped out. Hard enough to identify the places let alone understand what the rectangles are about.

 

[richieb1971]

http://www.englandseconomicheartland.com/Documents/Draft%20Transport%20Strategy%20Summary.pdf

 

[richieb1971]

I spoke to a gentlemen yesterday who said EWR will branch off roughly where the northampton spur was previously (going in the opposite direction). Is there any evidence to support that?



He also said a leaflet given to him kept referencing to Bedford as "Bedford Central station". Given the reason MK Central was given its name it gave way to some pondering over if Wixams would be given a "Bedford South" and another station north of Bedford being given a Bedford north name.

edited picture as spur was a bit too far north, he said north of where the iron bridge is. Which is where I've put the lines now.

 

[edwin_m]

I think a junction in that area would involve some impossible curves and gradients to get over the A6 (which is at a similar height to the railway) and still hit the gap between Bedford and Clapham. Might just be possible to diverge south of the river, follow the NW boundary of Sainsburys and the first few hundred metres of Clapham Road before continuing a similar line north-eastwards to skirt the edge of the Bedford built-up area.

 

[richieb1971]

Is it much different from Ely to Ipswich curve or the Hitchin flyover? The more you go north the more hilly it gets.

The a6 would go over the railway, not under it.

 

[edwin_m]

Is it much different from Ely to Ipswich curve or the Hitchin flyover? The more you go north the more hilly it gets.

The a6 would go over the railway, not under it.

You might get past the southern tip of Clapham by starting north of the Great Ouse with a curve of about 200m radius, the same as the Bacon Factory Curve in Ipswich, but after re-crossing the Great Ouse the valley side is quite steep so would need some earthworks (climbing 30m in well under 1km). That's partly why I suggested a route further south than yours!

 

[Steve Harris]

Of course but in the city centre....

Good luck with that. The vast majority of roads in Cambridge are not wide enough for bus lanes either side. The best your going to get is a bus lane in one direction only.

 

[Tobbes]

Good luck with that. The vast majority of roads in Cambridge are not wide enough for bus lanes either side. The best your going to get is a bus lane in one direction only.

Or to go under Cambs with a tramway as has been proposed

 

[Steve Harris]

Or to go under Cambs with a tramway as has been proposed

Going on past performance of Goverment departments (Local and National) I will probably be dead and buried by the time that it is built, and Cambridge will more than likely be at gridlock !

You do know that the proposed "tramway" doesn't involve any steel rails ?

 

[Tobbes]

Going on past performance of Goverment departments (Local and National) I will probably be dead and buried by the time that it is built, and Cambridge will more than likely be at gridlock !

You do know that the proposed "tramway" doesn't involve any steel rails ?

Since the bus-prentending-to-be-a-tram doesn't exist, I expect the tramway to have acutal rails idc....

 

[Steve Harris]

Since the bus-prentending-to-be-a-tram doesn't exist, I expect the tramway to have acutal rails idc....

Well, it seems you do not actually know alot about the subject you are discussing. As all the literature shoved through my families door is just that... a bus-prentending-to-be-a-tram.

I'm sure there is plenty of resources online for Mayor Palmer's Cambridge Metro for you to learn about what is actually being proposed.

Mayor Palmer has a long list of "wants" and to be honest I can't see them all happening, hence why I think this one is many years away from being built.

 

[Tobbes]

Well, it seems you do not actually know alot about the subject you are discussing. As all the literature shoved through my families door is just that... a bus-prentending-to-be-a-tram.

I'm sure there is plenty of resources online for Mayor Palmer's Cambridge Metro for you to learn about what is actually being proposed.

Mayor Palmer has a long list of "wants" and to be honest I can't see them all happening, hence why I think this one is many years away from being built.

I'm not totally on top of this, but I'm still at a loss for a working example of Palmer's proposed bus-prentending-to-be-a-tram anywhere in the world, or why this proposal is better than a modern tramway, which, oddly enough, exists in lots of places.

 

[Steve Harris]

I'm not totally on top of this, but I'm still at a loss for a working example of Palmer's proposed bus-prentending-to-be-a-tram anywhere in the world, or why this proposal is better than a modern tramway, which, oddly enough, exists in lots of places.

As far as I am aware there is no working example. And it won't be a tram as the Mayor wants it to use the existing busway and current roads to places such as Cambourne and St Neots. Which is why I can see Cambridge being at gridlock before it's built.

It doesn't matter if your at a loss, Mayor Palmer has a long list of wants (and tbh some are just unrealistic) so in his eyes they need to happen even if no one actually know's how it will be achieved.