Daughter Has Been Fined at Magistrates Court Without Knowing

[SidewaysSyd]

Last August 22nd (2019) my daughter travelled by train from Moreton in Marsh to the Reading Festival. She used her 16-25 Railcard to buy the ticket in advance but when she was removing items from her purse to take the minimum with her to the festival, she forgot her railcard. Of course, she was stopped and as she couldn't produce the railcard with the ticket, the guy took her details and said she'd receive a letter. She wasn't given a receipt or anything she could follow up. By November she had heard nothing and had assumed she wasn't hearing anything from them. On Nov 6th she moved to another flat to be nearer her new job which she had started in September. Now she is moving hospitals to Birmingham and had to have a DBS check. The results arrived today and she was horrified to find fines totalling £680, resulting from a Berkshire Magistrates hearing in February. We presume that mail had been sent to her old address but nothing was forwarded on to her though she had left them her new address. She has records of the railcard which expired in September 2019 and has found the ticket in question. Tomorrow we will phone the court and the rail company. I guess we'll have to pay the fine. What are the chances of re-couping any of the fine if we're able to show she did have a valid railcard at the time of travel?

She gave her details truthfully. They obviously ask for name and address - she can't remember if she was asked for email and phone number as well. Are these details asked for? If so, why wasn't she contacted this way when she didn't respond to the letter which we presume was sent to the address given?
She moved out of the address she gave about 9 weeks after she was stopped. Is it reasonable for notification of a fine to be sent more than 9 weeks after the "offence"?
If I am stopped by the police and I don't have my license on me, I have to present myself with the license at a police station in the next couple of days. Why doesn't a railcard traveller get the same option, having travelled perfectly legally with a correctly purchased ticket? Oh yes, because they prefer to make an immediate fine. Nothing was given to her to enable her to follow up, no case number, phone number, website, email.
She's not a criminal, but now she'll have a credit record which will affect loans and mortgaging. I find this absolutely disgraceful.

 

[_toommm_]

She moved out of the address she gave about 9 weeks after she was stopped. Is it reasonable for notification of a fine to be sent more than 9 weeks after the "offence"?

It can take up to six months to be contacted about this, although if you read on, I'll note the process that should have happened...

Why doesn't a railcard traveller get the same option, having travelled perfectly legally with a correctly purchased ticket? Oh yes, because they prefer to make an immediate fine. Nothing was given to her to enable her to follow up, no case number, phone number, website, email.

Was your daughter not told about the Forgotten Railcard process at the time of receiving the Penalty Fare? If one is to forget their railcard, they can contact the Train Operating Company (TOC) afterwards and have any additional fares refunded or Penalty Fares cancelled on providing proof of a Railcard that was valdi at the time of the journey.


I'm sure there'll be lots of other members along soon to detail the process your daughter will now have to follow.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum.

If your daughter genuinely knew nothing about the court proceedings then it's possible to apply for a Statutory Declaration at the court or a local solicitor. This has the effect of resetting the clock to zero on the court proceedings which would allow you time to try and sort things out. There is a strict timescale on when you can apply for a Statutory Declaration so do not delay now that you are aware of the situation.

I suggest contacting a solicitor local to you who specializes in criminal defence work, they should be able to arrange for your daughter to make the necessary declaration. This is probably preferable to doing it at the court as there is a risk at court that they will immediately re-hear the case and what you need to do is try and buy yourself some time so that you can engage with the train operating company and try to persuade them to withdraw the case.

@_toommm_ is correct that there is a forgotten railcard procedure. If it were me once the SD has been done I would contact the Prosecutions Department of the train company, explain what has happened, and say that you are keen to settle the matter without having to resort to further court action. I would offer to pay the train companies administrative costs in dealing with the matter.

 

[Haywain]

Was your daughter not told about the Forgotten Railcard process at the time of receiving the Penalty Fare?

The OP has made no mention of a Penalty Fare and it seems unlikely one was issued as no paperwork was given at the time.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is it just me, or is the scale of the amount that has been imposed for this disproportionate, compared with other common public offences, such as fly tipping or driving without insurance?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Your daughter also needs to contact the Disclosure & Barring Service to try and have this conviction removed/filtered

When making her statutary declaration, see if her solicitor can help/give advice on this

 

[CyrusWuff]

Is it just me, or is the scale of the amount that has been imposed for this disproportionate, compared with other common public offences, such as fly tipping or driving without insurance?

As the Court has had no contact from the OP's daughter, the level of the fine will have been based on an assumed income of £440 a week with no discount for an early guilty plea as no plea would have been received.

On top of that, there's a victim surcharge of 10% of the fine (subject to a £32 minimum and £181 maximum), the outstanding fare due and a contribution to the costs of bringing the prosecution.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Thanks for clarifying. A common issue with "I didn't know about it" prosecutions, such as the one advised by the OP, seems to be young folk moving on from previous (temporary?) addresses and possibly not then arranging for their mail to be on-forwarded.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Thanks for clarifying. A common issue with "I didn't know about it" prosecutions, such as the one advised by the OP, seems to be young folk moving on from previous (temporary?) addresses and possibly not then arranging for their mail to be on-forwarded.

Redirection of mail is not usually at the top of young folk's minds

The OP needs to tell his daughter to move swiftly as time is really of the essence

 

[SidewaysSyd]

Absolute gold information from you all. Very impressed that nobody has taken the moral high ground. Thanks to all. Those who talked about the fine are correct - the £680 was made up of the fine, victim surcharge etc. We are about to phone the train operator and start discussions - we also have a solicitor friend on hand. Will update later. Many thanks again.

 

[some bloke]

Syd, is your daughter a member of a union such as the BMA or RCN? If so they should be able to provide help, including some legal advice, and reassurance. I'd advise calling them today. Perhaps a medical defence organisation would be relevant as well.

Getting the verdict set aside is easy. If she submits the declaration within 21 days of finding out about the case, the magistrates have no choice but to void the verdict. Then she can hopefully get the company to simply drop the case.

The other thing to deal with today is this. As a formality your daughter may well have to notify her employer and/or professional regulator of the conviction. She can explain the situation at the same time - they are very unlikely to be bothered by this. Doctors and nurses are obliged to tell the GMC or NMC and their employer immediately if they are charged.

Declaring a criminal conviction

Find out what constitutes a criminal conviction, what you must do if you have committed a criminal offence, and why you must disclose this information as a doctor.

www.bma.org.uk

Reporting criminal and regulatory proceedings within and outside the UK

What you do and don't need to tell us as a doctor when you're subject to criminal or civil proceedings anywhere in the world.

www.gmc-uk.org

Paragraph 23.2:
https://www.nmc.org.uk/standards/code/read-the-code-online/

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Yes, a converstion is to be had with her employer, professional body, union and the DBS. She must stress (to them) that the conviction took place in her absence, without her knowledge until now. What specifically, does the conviction read on her DBS certificate?

If I was her manager, I would be grateful for the conversation and would have full sympathy

 

[some bloke]

If a professional regulator's rules or employment contract mean your daughter has to declare a conviction, then in each case it's advisable to do it in writing and get confirmation (even if someone tells her not to bother).

On the criminal record, the procedure if necessary would be to apply for deletion from the "Police National Computer" - whose records the Disclosure and Barring Service use. The DBS could rectify their own mistakes, but couldn't alter the record of the conviction.

ACRO Criminal Records Office - Record deletion

It may be that the record is deleted automatically after a court voids the verdict. A solicitor, the court, and/or someone on here who works with the courts may confirm whether that happens.

 

[Haywain]

We are about to phone the train operator and start discussions - we also have a solicitor friend on hand.

As things stand, the case is closed for the train operator as it has been to court. They will not be able to settle the matter until the Statutory Declaration has been submitted and the case returns to a status of being one that has not been heard. The first priority absolutely must be to submit the Statutory Declaration.

 

[some bloke]

We'd expect the company to want proof of the railcard anyway, and there would seem to be no harm in sending it early.

While your daughter is waiting for the court to set the verdict aside, she could send proof of the railcard and ask the company to confirm (in writing) that

"if the verdict is set aside you will take no further action in this matter".

This might also speed up their response after the court acts.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

As the train operating company have "discharged" their case; i.e. it's no longer being dealt with, I think the priority should be for the OP's daughter to make her Statutary Declaration and sort out getting the conviction erased from her DBS record. There is probably a time limit here

 

[221129]

As the train operating company have "discharged" their case; i.e. it's no longer being dealt with, I think the priority should be for the OP's daughter to make her Statutary Declaration and sort out getting the conviction erased from her DBS record. There is probably a time limit here

This is the most important thing. As you only have 21 days from finding out about the conviction to get the SD sorted.

 

[WesternLancer]

Absolute gold information from you all. Very impressed that nobody has taken the moral high ground. Thanks to all. Those who talked about the fine are correct - the £680 was made up of the fine, victim surcharge etc. We are about to phone the train operator and start discussions - we also have a solicitor friend on hand. Will update later. Many thanks again.

No moral high ground to take on this one IMHO! Forgotten railcard does happen easily enough and thankfully the railway now has a process to deal with that which is not punitive - problem is that it's gone down another route and it is now harder to untangle - but people here will help.

Word of caution - phoning train company prosecutions dept could be frustrating, possibly best to start doing things in writing wherever possible , keeps a record of things (ie a written record of telling them the new address for example is going to be important as starter).

Possibly even now worth getting a Royal Mail re-direct on that old address even tho a lot of time gone by.

people on here have often helped with draft letter wording if you want any input on what to say. Your daughter should send stuff signed for post if you can't e-mail them.

But as per other posts the action you need to do ASAP is above.

PS - ref your orig post - no they do it all in old fashioned letter when they write to you - not e-mail or phone, hence why they presumably don't take those details, or don't use them if they do.

 

[Realfish]

As others have said there is a two step process for getting this sorted. As time is of the essence, getting the conviction voided is the first and most critical.

Getting GWR to rewind is the second. Here is an extract from GWR’s own ‘Buy before you board’ policy, which reflects agreements introduced across the rail industry a couple of years back to recognise that passengers should not be unduly penalised for the simple and understandable error of forgetting their railcard:

‘What if I have bought a discounted ticket with a Railcard, but cannot produce the Railcard on the
actual journey?
If you have a Railcard, always carry it with you when you travel. Failure to produce your Railcard during your journey will render your discounted ticket invalid.
That means you will be charged the full adult fare, receive a Penalty Fare if you are travelling within a Penalty Fare area, or be reported for prosecution.
If you are able to produce your Railcard after your journey we will provide one warning and cancel any Penalty Fare or report for prosecution, or refund the additional ticket you had to purchase.’

 

[Haywain]

We are about to phone the train operator

Do you know which train operator prosecuted the case? Whilst travel was with GWR it is possible that for an event such as the Reading Festival they mounted a joint revenue operation with other companies such as South Western Railway and CrossCountry, and one of those could have prosecuted.

 

[some bloke]

I think the priority should be for the OP's daughter to make her Statutary Declaration

I think there's general agreement on that point!

void the verdict. Then she can hopefully get the company to simply drop the case.

While your daughter is waiting for the court to set the verdict aside

...................

I would offer to pay the train companies administrative costs in dealing with the matter.

Maybe better to see if they just drop the case. It may be hard for them to see a benefit from taking it to court again when the passenger had a valid railcard.

If the offence was intent to avoid a fare (as it may be given that it appeared on the DBS check) it's pretty implausible that she's guilty in the first place. And then there are, or may be, any public statements about a first instance on top of that.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Maybe better to see if they just drop the case.

They haven't dropped the case. She has been found guilty in her absence.

 

[MikeWh]

They haven't dropped the case. She has been found guilty in her absence.

And when they have the verdict set aside by the SD they may decide to drop the case at that point.

 

[some bloke]

Also at least in theory the company can commit, before the verdict is set aside, to not prosecuting in the event that it is.
So if your daughter is worried and/or the court takes its time to void the verdict, she might see if the company is prepared to say something about that.

...............

Technical note:

If the case began with a Single Justice Procedure Notice, then in order to meet the requirements for the verdict to be set aside your daughter needs to respond to the notice (giving a notice of plea) at the same time as making the declaration. This is point 5 in "How to use this form" on the second page of the declaration form.

The form is under Part 24:

Criminal Procedure Rules: Forms

Forms to use with the Criminal Procedure Rules.

www.justice.gov.uk

It's theoretically possible that a solicitor might not mention this, assuming that your daughter knows how her case began. She can ask the court whether her case began with an SJPN.

 

[SidewaysSyd]

Very positive updates. We spoke to GWR who were responsible for the whole journey and they said they couldn't help for now - it's the Magistrates Court which is in control at the moment. Our daughter called them and was on the phone for over an hour, speaking to a number of people, but all helpful. Statutory Declaration process has been kicked off though it will take a few weeks due to a big backlog. But they said the fine has been put on hold and no need to pay it now - no more interest accruing. GWR said to keep them up to date with all the court proceedings.
Thanks to all again

 

[Western Sunset]

That all sounds very positive.

 

[WesternLancer]

Very positive updates. We spoke to GWR who were responsible for the whole journey and they said they couldn't help for now - it's the Magistrates Court which is in control at the moment. Our daughter called them and was on the phone for over an hour, speaking to a number of people, but all helpful. Statutory Declaration process has been kicked off though it will take a few weeks due to a big backlog. But they said the fine has been put on hold and no need to pay it now - no more interest accruing. GWR said to keep them up to date with all the court proceedings.
Thanks to all again

Good news. obviously head back here for any further advice needed as things develop. No doubt much time will now have to be taken up which will be frustrating, but hopefully things going in the right direction.
Remind your daughter to keep notes of all conversations, times and dates and names of who spoken to at what organisation etc

Seen other cases on here before of people moving house and not being aware they have been prosecuted and it taking a bit to get it sorted, but hopefully all will be OK in due course.

I think it is particularly difficult for younger people who expect to get most or all vital communication electronically, and who live in private rented accommodation which can often be fairly transient, shared housing etc etc. A lot of that near me and I often see piles of old post for previous occupants on doormats or in lobby areas, just left and never 'returned to sender' by other occupants or landlords / estate agents.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Also at least in theory the company can commit, before the verdict is set aside, to not prosecuting in the event that it is.
So if your daughter is worried and/or the court takes its time to void the verdict, she might see if the company is prepared to say something about that.

...............

Technical note:

If the case began with a Single Justice Procedure Notice, then in order to meet the requirements for the verdict to be set aside your daughter needs to respond to the notice (giving a notice of plea) at the same time as making the declaration. This is point 5 in "How to use this form" on the second page of the declaration form.

The form is under Part 24:

Criminal Procedure Rules: Forms

Forms to use with the Criminal Procedure Rules.

www.justice.gov.uk

It's theoretically possible that a solicitor might not mention this, assuming that your daughter knows how her case began. She can ask the court whether her case began with an SJPN.

It can't have been an SJPN I suspect because there is the possibility of a prison sentence under the Regulations of Railway Act legislation, albeit for serious reoffending.

I don't have much knowledge of railway specific law, but I think only a Byelaw could be used for SJPN.

 

[some bloke]

It can't have been an SJPN I suspect because there is the possibility of a prison sentence under the Regulations of Railway Act legislation, albeit for serious reoffending.

I don't have much knowledge of railway specific law, but I think only a Byelaw could be used for SJPN.

Maybe I've missed something, but I thought it wasn't clear what the alleged offence was (though, as above, the fact that it appeared on the DBS check may mean it's RoRA).

 

[Haywain]

It's theoretically possible that a solicitor might not mention this, assuming that your daughter knows how her case began.

Not of great relevance to the OP, but if his daughter knew how the case began she should be paying the fine and not even considering a statutory declaration.