GWR Brighton services

[387star]

Currently Monday Friday one train a day goes to Brighton in the morning returning to Fratton then sits on the fuel point all day.

When will the full service resume? Will covid spell the end for this service ?

 

[StephenHunter]

Since GWR are investing in the 769s, I doubt they've got any plans to end it.

 

[I13]

Not quite full service but the morning train that currently runs to Fratton will be restored to Great Malvern from 14 Sep. The afternoon services won't be running. Saturday service also returns I believe.

 

[JonathanH]

Since GWR are investing in the 769s, I doubt they've got any plans to end it.

The GWR procurement of 769s for services based on Reading depot has nothing to do with their services along the coast to Brighton. They already have enough Bristol based Turbos to cover the Brighton workings as and when they return.

 

[pompeyfan]

I believe long term the plan is for GTR to pick up GWR paths for their own peak additional.

talkingof route knowledge, have GTR signed off via Eastleigh. Don’t think they’ve run since the freight derailment.

 

[387star]

I believe long term the plan is for GTR to pick up GWR paths for their own peak additional.

talkingof route knowledge, have GTR signed off via Eastleigh. Don’t think they’ve run since the freight derailment.

GWR don't go via Eastleigh either at the moment with a ten minute dwell at fareham

Pm Brightons will run Saturday only from september so December presumaby for the next increase when weekday pm services hopefully resume
Sunday services till December rerouted to Portsmouth

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I believe long term the plan is for GTR to pick up GWR paths for their own peak additional.

talkingof route knowledge, have GTR signed off via Eastleigh. Don’t think they’ve run since the freight derailment.

Long term plan is for GWR to continue to operate the Brighton services.

 

[pompeyfan]

GWR don't go via Eastleigh either at the moment with a ten minute dwell at fareham

Pm Brightons will run Saturday only from september so December presumaby for the next increase when weekday pm services hopefully resume
Sunday services till December rerouted to Portsmouth

Does 2M95 and a Sunday morning 5Oxx not go that way?

I noticed a 1F on Saturday morning go via Eastleigh, due to an operational incident on another train I believe, so some still retain competency.

 

[PHILIPE]

Does 2M95 and a Sunday morning 5Oxx not go that way?

I noticed a 1F on Saturday morning go via Eastleigh, due to an operational incident on another train I believe, so some still retain competency.

1F91 does as well, . 1930 CDF to PMH

 

[sjoh]

I'm sort of curious as to what the point of the 2tpd GWR service really is? Could anyone enlighten as to its history, and why it remains?

 

[387star]

Does 2M95 and a Sunday morning 5Oxx not go that way?

I noticed a 1F on Saturday morning go via Eastleigh, due to an operational incident on another train I believe, so some still retain competency.

The Sunday morning is empty to romsey then forms s Brighton so must be cancelled
The new late service that goes via eastleigh is not running and the 1Z91 which runs through fareham at around 2229 is not currently running via eastleigh. That s currently the last train although a later one runs on Saturday

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I'm sort of curious as to what the point of the 2tpd GWR service really is? Could anyone enlighten as to its history, and why it remains?

Because people wish to get directly from Brighton to Bath and Bristol (and v.v.) without changing trains. It also provides connections at Salisbury and Westbury for the West of England.

It’s an inter-regional service which as far as I’m aware has always been there and the reason it remains is during normal (non-Covid times) it is very popular. With the ceasing of the through Exeter to Brighton workings 10 years or so ago the connectional need for this service has increased.

 

[sjoh]

Because people wish to get directly from Brighton to Bath and Bristol (and v.v.) without changing trains. It also provides connections at Salisbury and Westbury for the West of England.

It’s an inter-regional service which as far as I’m aware has always been there and the reason it remains is during normal (non-Covid times) it is very popular. With the ceasing of the through Exeter to Brighton workings 10 years or so ago the connectional need for this service has increased.

In which case, why is it only 2 trains per day? Has it been more than that in the past? How do the paths it uses along the Coastway route get used for most of the day when it's not running?
I'm aware that the service is an inter-regional service - I've used the Bristol to Portsmouth section a fair amount and I agree it's hugely useful. I'm just a tad confused as to why, if connections to Salisbury and WoE are so important, they are only important enough to justify a train at either end of the day?
Maybe I'm being a bit idealistic, but surely a better way to do this would be to keep all GWRs terminating at Portsmouth (or even Southampton) and then an hourly or bi-hourly SWR service from Brighton to Westbury or such, rather than having GWR deal with route knowledge and stabling, and using extra stock in order to send 2 trains a day to Brighton...

Simply curious!

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm sort of curious as to what the point of the 2tpd GWR service really is? Could anyone enlighten as to its history, and why it remains?

Has a very long history IIRC - I certainly used it in the 1980s as a very convenient way to get along the coast and across to the south west without heading up to London. In those days it was loco hauled with more spacious stock too.
I believe it dates back to steam days, or parts of it do.

Looks like a discussion on the topic not so long ago with a bit more info

Brighton to Bristol direct service history

Brighton has a daily GWR direct service to Bristol and beyond. I know this service has been around for several years now using a DMU and it just got me thinking, has this service always been around? I can’t find much literature on it online but I know the class 158 were built for many long...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[swt_passenger]

In which case, why is it only 2 trains per day? Has it been more than that in the past? How do the paths it uses along the Coastway route get used for most of the day when it's not running?
I'm aware that the service is an inter-regional service - I've used the Bristol to Portsmouth section a fair amount and I agree it's hugely useful. I'm just a tad confused as to why, if connections to Salisbury and WoE are so important, they are only important enough to justify a train at either end of the day?
Maybe I'm being a bit idealistic, but surely a better way to do this would be an hourly or bi-hourly SWR service from Brighton to Westbury or such, rather than having GWR deal with route knowledge and stabling, and using extra stock in order to send 2 trains a day to Brighton...

Simply curious!

It isn’t really 2 trains per day, the early arrival at Brighton starts from Portsmouth having stabled overnight at Fratton. The other eastbound and both the westbound services run in addition to the usual hourly EMU service between Brighton and Southampton provided by Southern. The connection time into the Cardiff train at Southampton is almost 55 mins though, about as useless as it gets.

Back when SWT ran an irregular service to Brighton, from Reading or Basingstoke via Fareham, there were gaps in their service east of Fareham when the GWR services ran.

 

[trainmania100]

I used the Brighton to great Malvern a few months ago for a trip to Westbury. A lot more convenient than changing trains, one nice long service where I can get on with some work without having to worry about getting off.
It's a shame Brighton doesn't see more longer distance trains like the old voyager services.

 

[WesternLancer]

It isn’t really 2 trains per day, the early arrival at Brighton starts from Portsmouth having stabled overnight at Fratton. The other eastbound and both the westbound services run in addition to the usual hourly EMU service between Brighton and Southampton provided by Southern. The connection time into the Cardiff train at Southampton is almost 55 mins though, about as useless as it gets.

Back when SWT ran an irregular service to Brighton, from Reading or Basingstoke via Fareham, there were gaps in their service east of Fareham when the GWR services ran.

Am I right to think that back years ago (eg pre Network South East days) there weren't regular through trains Brighton to Southampton all day - so this inter- regional service was a good way to get as far as Southampton without having to change in the Portsmouth area? I may be wrong about this however.

 

[HowardGWR]

Has a very long history IIRC - I certainly used it in the 1980s as a very convenient way to get along the coast and across to the south west without heading up to London. In those days it was loco hauled with more spacious stock too.
I believe it dates back to steam days, or parts of it do.

Looks like a discussion on the topic not so long ago with a bit more info

Brighton to Bristol direct service history

Brighton has a daily GWR direct service to Bristol and beyond. I know this service has been around for several years now using a DMU and it just got me thinking, has this service always been around? I can’t find much literature on it online but I know the class 158 were built for many long...

www.railforums.co.uk

At least back to the 1920s.

Regarding changing at Salisbury or Westbury for Devon and Cornwall, the available traffic is very slight. Analyses for the A35/M27/ A27 trajectory or inland to A303 show that nearly all traffic is very localised within one or two counties, except on a few summer Saturdays with the holiday trippers.

 

[swt_passenger]

Am I right to think that back (eg pre Network South East days) there weren't regular through trains Brighton to Southampton all day - so this inter- regional service was a good way to get as far as Southampton without changing in the Portsmouth area? I may be wrong about this however.

I don’t remember, but I’m sure someone else will. There were “South Central” through trains to Bournemouth before privatisation, presumably they started when the Fareham area was electrified?

 

[sjoh]

It isn’t really 2 trains per day, the early arrival at Brighton starts from Portsmouth having stabled overnight at Fratton. The other eastbound and both the westbound services run in addition to the usual hourly EMU service between Brighton and Southampton provided by Southern. The connection time into the Cardiff train at Southampton is almost 55 mins though, about as useless as it gets.

Back when SWT ran an irregular service to Brighton, from Reading or Basingstoke via Fareham, there were gaps in their service east of Fareham when the GWR services ran.

When I say 2 trains per day, I'm not talking specifically about between Portsmouth and Brighton - am aware of the hourly Southern service. What I mean is that I doubt the demand for WoE-Brighton and vice versa is specifically early morning and late afternoon - and thus it's all very well running these extensions from Portsmouth out to Brighton and back, but if I want to make this journey at a time when they are not running, I'm still going to have to change anyway. If they were in marginal time - very well - but they're not, and thus use an extra unit than would otherwise be necessary.
If the paths are there, then my point is why not make full use of them with a service that can a) fulfil this demand all day long, and b) makes more efficient use of resources. Conversely, if the service provision of 2tpd is what it is because the demand is not high enough between Brighton and WoE for GWR to justify it being an hourly service, then move that provision to an operator who can serve it more efficiently.
Does that make sense?

 

[WesternLancer]

I don’t remember, but I’m sure someone else will. There were “South Central” through trains to Bournemouth before privatisation, presumably they started when the Fareham area was electrified?

Good point - so when was the Fareham area electrified to support that? Were they extensions of ex London services eg via Hove, as opposed to coast-way train originating Brighton and running through to Bournemouth?

 

[swt_passenger]

Good point - so when was the Fareham area electrified to support that? Were they extensions of ex London services eg via Hove, as opposed to coast-way train originating Brighton and running through to Bournemouth?

The Fareham area was electrified (aka Solent Link) by about 1990? I think the SC Bournemouths did come through via Hove.

When I say 2 trains per day, I'm not talking specifically about between Portsmouth and Brighton - am aware of the hourly Southern service. What I mean is that I doubt the demand for WoE-Brighton and vice versa is specifically early morning and late afternoon - and thus it's all very well running these extensions from Portsmouth out to Brighton and back, but if I want to make this journey at a time when they are not running, I'm still going to have to change anyway. If they were in marginal time - very well - but they're not, and thus use an extra unit than would otherwise be necessary.
If the paths are there, then my point is why not make full use of them with a service that can a) fulfil this demand all day long, and b) makes more efficient use of resources. Conversely, if the service provision of 2tpd is what it is because the demand is not high enough between Brighton and WoE for GWR to justify it being an hourly service, then move that provision to an operator who can serve it more efficiently.
Does that make sense?

Yes it does. My personal view, which I’ve mentioned before, is it could have been ended when the Southern hourly service started. I think GWR have better uses for their DMU stock elsewhere.

But a lot more people seem to think the present limited service is really useful...

 

[big all]

I don’t remember, but I’m sure someone else will. There were “South Central” through trains to Bournemouth before privatisation, presumably they started when the Fareham area was electrified?

they were hourly Victoria to Bournemouth via Gatwick and Horsham .

 

[JonathanH]

I think GWR have better uses for their DMU stock elsewhere.

Essentially for GWR it would appear that much of the lease cost of one unit is linked to serving Brighton. The two daily trips cross at Bristol. If the train from Great Malvern to Brighton terminated at Bristol Temple Meads and went back to Great Malvern, and the elements east of Bristol didn't run they would save a unit.

So I guess it is a case of comparing the revenue taken by GWR running a peak train from Portsmouth to Brighton, the train from Brighton to Bristol, adding mid-morning capacity west of Southampton on top of the core Portsmouth to Cardiff service, mid-afternoon capacity back to Southampton and then an early evening peak train out of Brighton back to Bristol against the lease and operational cost of the train. It isn't immediately obvious that they need a 3-car unit explicitly to run a different service on the network.

 

[Flange Squeal]

I don’t remember, but I’m sure someone else will. There were “South Central” through trains to Bournemouth before privatisation, presumably they started when the Fareham area was electrified?

They lasted into the privatised era too. Not sure exactly when they ceased, but they certainly ran throughout Connex's tenure and into the beginning of Govia's days (at least as late as 2002). They used the bay at Bournemouth.

 

[swt_passenger]

They stopped before the West Coastway changes that brought in the Brighton <> Southampton service, I think part of the reasoning was that they (SC or SN) were considered a cause of congestion west of Southampton. So about the same time that SWT joined the Southampton stopper with the Brockenhurst to Wareham stopper, and made Weymouth 2 tph. I suspect if the ex Victoria train ran through it would have had to follow fairly closely behind an SWT Weymouth service. The signalling headways are longer beyond Redbridge and it was supposedly difficult to fit everything in reliably.

In reality, they probably saved a 377 all day diagram for re-allocation elsewhere.

 

[Right Away]

Essentially for GWR it would appear that much of the lease cost of one unit is linked to serving Brighton. The two daily trips cross at Bristol. If the train from Great Malvern to Brighton terminated at Bristol Temple Meads and went back to Great Malvern, and the elements east of Bristol didn't run they would save a unit.

There would need to be a unit to run the Great Malvern to Bristol and corresponding northwards run otherwise there is a gap in the hourly service for local stations to Gloucester. It is only south of Westbury where the unit is effectively 'tied up' with the Brighton run as the Great Malvern/Cheltenham/Gloucester trains cross Bristol and run through to Westbury anyway.

The morning train from Brighton and the afternoon train to Brighton used to be a popular connection at Westbury for elderly passengers travelling between the south coast and south west and vice versa. I am not sure about the popularity of the afternoon train from Westbury now as the West of England timetable recast sees the train from the west connecting with the earlier Portsmouth service instead.

As an aside, up to the end of Wessex Trains, the morning train from Brighton used to be provided by a service train departing from Westbury at 05:30ish. This was later effectively split by FGW with the train from Westbury terminating at Salisbury and the Brighton part starting at Portsmouth.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

With an 0900 departure from Brighton (and therefore places such as Chichester around 0945-1000ish) the Brighton-Malvern falls right in the ideal ‘leisure hour’ when people start their journeys after breakfast time.

To answer a previous comment, removing the Bristol-Brighton and Brighton-Bristol legs would not save a set as the stopping service between Bristol and Westbury (both ways) would need infilling.

 

[Parallel]

I'm pro Brighton to Bristol direct services, living on that line. It comes in handy for weekend trips to the West Coastway from the West Country. The services are relatively well used by long distance passengers (not all the way from Malvern mind, but further south - you could see from reservation labels) as well as local traffic. I hope the Sunday trains get restored soon as they are a useful link for those returning from weekend trips.

I know it'll never happen but some kind of Cardiff to Portsmouth and Brighton splitting service would be useful, although obviously paths on the West Coastway line are limited so that's fantasy.

 

[4REP]

I'm sort of curious as to what the point of the 2tpd GWR service really is? Could anyone enlighten as to its history, and why it remains?

I remember when 33s and Mark 2A stock ran the service back in the 80s under routecode 89