Abolish Gatwick Express?

[Peter stanley]

Reading threads it seems Gatwick Express is not very popular. I have no objection per se (if people want to pay more just to save 2 mins on the journey time that is up to them) but I do object when at Clapham Jct. or E. Croydon I see Gatwick Express trains pass half empty while the following Southern service arrives packed out. Therefore why not abolish the service to create more pathways for Southern and Thameslink services. I suggest the Brighton line services could then be improved as follows:-

London - Brighton 4tph calling Clapham Jct., E. Croydon, Gatwick, Haywards Heath then two fast to Brighton and two calling Burgess Hill and Hassocks.

Six Thameslink - four to Brighton and one each to Littlehampton and Eastbourne.

Both coastway west and coastway east lines would thus have 2tph, one Thameslink and one Victoria.

Maybe 2tph Thameslink to Brighton could go via Redhill, to improve the service here and also to provide easy connections from Brighton to Tonbridge, Guildford and Reading etc.

This would also increase direct services between Clapham Jct., E. Croydon and Brighton.

Comments or further suggestions welcome.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Either bin it or return it to what it was i.e. a dedicated service to take all the extra luggage off the Southern services, in which case it should be the same fare in order to ensure all the airport passengers actually use it.

With airport demand likely reduced for a few years better bin it TBH. The stock could be branded "Southern Express" (as I half recall some of it already is?) and used on the Brighton Express instead.

 

[JonathanH]

The signalling at Clapham Junction requires one of the service groups to run non stop through the station to allow the maximum number of trains to run.

A Study in Sussex Part 5: Up The Junction

In our quest to look at capacity issues and opportunities in Sussex we come to part 5 - the present and future of Clapham Junction

www.londonreconnections.com

The problem with the tracks through Clapham Junction fast platforms is that they cannot handle any more trains. During the peak period there are roughly 16tph and of those four are Gatwick Express trains that don’t stop there. With the current signalling this is about all that can be achieved. So what is to be done? There are some minor improvements that have been and can be made. Beyond that Network Rail currently has two ideas as to how to solve this. Unfortunately one option is expensive and the other one is very expensive.

The current compromise of running Gatwick Express trains through to Brighton is a reasonable compromise which keeps the airport happy although does lead to a poor set of services to the Brighton line in the morning peak.

 

[Starmill]

The current timetable was proposed to have had 2tph between London Victoria and Brighton calling only at Gatwick Airport intermediately. That sounds fine to me, in addition to the other Southern 'Mainline' services to Brighton and the South Coast, and Thameslink services via London Bridge. Whether the name 'Gatwick Express' is kept is neither here nor there, really. I would also have a policy of setting all of the fares to the lower level and eliminating all current brand differentials - hardly matters now thr taxpayer will have to pick up almost all of the cost either way. To put it another way, bin the Gatwick Airport terminators and let people use whatever train they like for the same price, and see how it goes.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The Gatwick Express is a necessary evil, it does a relatively good job at separating Airport customers from South Coast commuters and leisure travellers.

However I do think there could be room from improvement, for instance 2tph would be a “express metro” Calling at Clapham Jnc, East Croydon, Purley and Redhill as key stations that connect with other lines and other parts of London,

Another 2tph could be then be the Victoria-Gatwick-Brighton only service

Either way I don’t think it should be abolished, I for one would not want to share a packed South Coast commuter train with holiday makers with luggage.

It’s far from perfect but the positives do outweigh the negatives

 

[yorkie]

The Gatwick Express is a necessary evil, it does a relatively good job at separating Airport customers from South Coast commuters and leisure travellers.

That's more a theoretical position.

Either way I don’t think it should be abolished, I for one would not want to share a packed South Coast commuter train with holiday makers with luggage.

In practice I've been on a platform at Gatwick with loads of people with luggage who have obviously got off planes and take the Southern branded GTR service.

As for the fares, I agree that they should be equalised; I see no lawful way in which GTR can charge a premium (if anyone can think of a way I'd be interested to hear it.... but a new thread would be best for that), so they ought to start complying with the law (better late than never!)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

With airport demand likely reduced for a few years better bin it TBH. The stock could be branded "Southern Express" (as I half recall some of it already is?) and used on the Brighton Express instead.

Indeed. Virgin have consolidated on LHR and now have no service out of LGW. Limited stop express of Gatwick airport and Brighton is the way I would go.

 

[JonathanH]

However I do think there could be room from improvement, for instance 2tph would be a “express metro” Calling at Clapham Jnc, East Croydon, Purley and Redhill as key stations that connect with other lines and other parts of London,

Another 2tph could be then be the Victoria-Gatwick-Brighton only service

Either way I don’t think it should be abolished, I for one would not want to share a packed South Coast commuter train with holiday makers with luggage.

That would need somewhat different branding it certainly wouldn't be an "express" and I don't think it would be an improvement - isn't it just a Southern service? - if they build the extra platform at Reigate one day, diversion of the current Victoria to Reigate trains to Gatwick could well mean that there is a slow train to Gatwick from Victoria calling Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Purley and all stations to Gatwick Airport via Redhill.

Victoria - Gatwick Airport non-stop is about 28-30 minutes
Victoria - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - Purley - Redhill - Gatwick Airport is 38 minutes - see https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W06310/2020-09-06/detailed

The pre-covid 0809 London Victoria to Reigate and Gatwick Airport takes a whole hour to get from Victoria to Gatwick with a split and dwell time at Redhill.

Putting stops in doesn't meet your aim of segregating 'holiday makers with luggage' from 'South Coast commuters'.

 

[Minstral25]

The Gatwick Express is a necessary evil, it does a relatively good job at separating Airport customers from South Coast commuters and leisure travellers.

Either way I don’t think it should be abolished, I for one would not want to share a packed South Coast commuter train with holiday makers with luggage.

It’s far from perfect but the positives do outweigh the negatives

This is the historical fallacy of Gatwick Express. It fails to separate Airport Traffic from commuters and having climbed over many a suitcase on Commuters services for years it is obvious that it fails and it has been this way since the early 2000's. So Why?

A significant proportion of Airport passengers don't want Victoria, so they use Thameslink as it has better connections, many also want Clapham Junction for South West London connections and GatEx does not call there - remember more passengers at Gatwick are UK residents than from overseas so the idea of the majority of passengers heading to hotels in Victoria is wrong, they are leaving from their homes all over London.

Additionally the extra fare puts many passengers off and in the internet connected world all passengers can quickly find the most value for money route into London.

Lastly passengers get on the first train to London, so why wait 10 minutes for a GatEx when an ex-Eastbourne services is already at the platform?

The truth is GatEx has been failing as an "Airport People" mover for some time and the loading of the non-Brighton services being mostly empty proves this point - stand at East Croydon and watch the empty GatEx sets run through its obvious.

The criminality is that the overloaded commuter services (with added Airport passengers) could be relieved by extra commuter trains if it wasn't for keeping the path free for GatEx

The signalling at Clapham Junction requires one of the service groups to run non stop through the station to allow the maximum number of trains to run.

A Study in Sussex Part 5: Up The Junction

In our quest to look at capacity issues and opportunities in Sussex we come to part 5 - the present and future of Clapham Junction

www.londonreconnections.com

The current compromise of running Gatwick Express trains through to Brighton is a reasonable compromise which keeps the airport happy although does lead to a poor set of services to the Brighton line in the morning peak.

My understanding is that this statement is incorrect as Southern/GatEx could stop all trains there without performance problems most of the day (more trains mean less dwell time per train as passengers removed from platform faster). What stops the services calling at Clapham Junction is that DfT mandate a non-stop passenger service to Gatwick 4 times per hour. This is supported politically by Gatwick Airport.

 

[Ianno87]

My understanding is that this statement is incorrect as Southern/GatEx could stop all trains there without performance problems most of the day (more trains mean less dwell time per train as passengers removed from platform faster).

You're making a big assumption that the currently planned dwell time is adequate, and that the act of stopping more trains doesn't just create extra demand or displace GatEx demand from Victoria to Clapham (rather than spreading existing Clapham demand).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Sep 2020 ==

That's more a theoretical position.

In practice I've been on a platform at Gatwick with loads of people with luggage who have obviously got off planes and take the Southern branded GTR service.

As for the fares, I agree that they should be equalised; I see no lawful way in which GTR can charge a premium (if anyone can think of a way I'd be interested to hear it.... but a new thread would be best for that), so they ought to start complying with the law (better late than never!)

Arguably, the GatEx only fare should be *reduced*, specifically to attract Airport passengers onto it!

 

[Minstral25]

You're making a big assumption that the currently planned dwell time is adequate, and that the act of stopping more trains doesn't just create extra demand or displace GatEx demand from Victoria to Clapham (rather than spreading existing Clapham demand).

It could - you are correct but my understanding is that is not expected as current passengers and new passengers would be split across more trains. However I also don't think the biggest demand is from Victoria at all and much of the demand is already at Clapham from South West London as the convenient changing point. If you want to get from Wimbledon or Richmond to Gatwick - you wouldn't go to Clapham, change for Victoria to catch a GatEx, you'd go to Clapham and get on a Southern service direct.

 

[AlbertBeale]

It could - you are correct but my understanding is that is not expected as current passengers and new passengers would be split across more trains. However I also don't think the biggest demand is from Victoria at all and much of the demand is already at Clapham from South West London as the convenient changing point. If you want to get from Wimbledon or Richmond to Gatwick - you wouldn't go to Clapham, change for Victoria to catch a GatEx, you'd go to Clapham and get on a Southern service direct.

If you want to have special airport trains which relieve the pressure on commuter trains etc, then you need to have those airport trains stopping at Gatwick, but lots of other trains not stopping there. However, as pointed out, for the airport trains to be useful - and used - they need to serve places other than just Victoria. And then ... they become more useful for non-airport users, who use them, and you don't get segregation.

Having some trains from London terminating at Gatwick does make sense - but whether they should be expresses which stop nowhere else is another matter. I guess they need to stop at places which are most likely to be useful for airport users, and not at places which are mostly used by commuters (if the distinction can be made) - that's probably the best bet in terms of segregation to relieve pressures. But also, given where people from the airport want to go, shouldn't there be some start/terminate at Gatwick services on the London Bridge route as well as on the Victoria route? Hence - some "Gatwick Expresses" on Thameslink as well as Southern?

 

[30907]

I have long thought that the pre-Gatwick Express pattern was as good as it got: dedicated modified 4VEP at the London end detached/attached at GTW, always a unit sat in the slow line platforms ready to board.... but the intermediate stops made them on the slow side and once people got wind of the fast line trains stopping (because the coastal folk wanted Gatwick...) the system began to break down even pre privatisation.

You could replicate the pattern on the fast lines using a widened 5 and 6 (ISTR this is happening) for the splitting and 4 and 7 for non-splitting trains. That's the easy bit, though - which trains do you split? Coastway? - but then you really have to have the East Croydon and Clapham Jn stops. Brighton fast? - that would work, provided the CLJ-BTN flow was covered, but would it justify 4tph rather than 2, bearing in mind the capacity problems south of Balcombe Tunnel Jn.

I am not sure that has got us much further, sorry...

 

[Minstral25]

If you want to have special airport trains which relieve the pressure on commuter trains etc, then you need to have those airport trains stopping at Gatwick, but lots of other trains not stopping there. However, as pointed out, for the airport trains to be useful - and used - they need to serve places other than just Victoria. And then ... they become more useful for non-airport users, who use them, and you don't get segregation.

Having some trains from London terminating at Gatwick does make sense - but whether they should be expresses which stop nowhere else is another matter. I guess they need to stop at places which are most likely to be useful for airport users, and not at places which are mostly used by commuters (if the distinction can be made) - that's probably the best bet in terms of segregation to relieve pressures. But also, given where people from the airport want to go, shouldn't there be some start/terminate at Gatwick services on the London Bridge route as well as on the Victoria route? Hence - some "Gatwick Expresses" on Thameslink as well as Southern?

That is my point, I don't see the use of "Airport Specials" on a overcrowded commuter line. They eat capacity by running non-stop and in this case they are not used very much as the majority of Airport passengers don't have to go via Victoria and thus many do not. Also, to be of use you would need frequency of at least 4 per hour to London Bridge/Thameslink and 4 per hour to Victoria - there simply is not enough space on the lines for express services of this nature.

In any case London Bridge/ Thameslink has 4 trains per hour calling at East Croydon only so in effect have express trains already but these are commuter services to Brighton (I didn't count Gatwick Terminators as these go round via Redhill and call all stations). Perhaps the Victoria could call at Clapham to make the balance?

 

[Mikey C]

Does anyone know what the passenger split is between Gatwick and London, between Gatwick Express, Southern and Thameslink?

 

[cle]

Even calling all 4 at Clapham Junction and East Croydon would be a start to adding capacity and better utilization of paths and stock. Add the extension of 2tph to Brighton and maybe the other 2tph to Three Bridges or Horsham fast - and really, that's enough. I'd prefer all 4tph to HH, and the second 2tph to Burgess Hill and Hove only, but anything is good.

The idea is that travellers would be spread across so many more trains, that they wouldn't be as intrusive. Schiphol doesn't have this issue, or Zurich. People join the regular trains and mix accordingly. Piccadilly line too, and Crossrail to be.

Also, a lot of folks use Southern trains already! And Thameslink too. So that mixing passengers argument is debunked/faux-exceptionalist. It would help interchanging at East Croydon and Clapham Junction a lot too, and reduce average waits.

 

[Meerkat]

As for the fares, I agree that they should be equalised; I see no lawful way in which GTR can charge a premium

Why no lawful way? Not arguing - just curious.

I think Gatwick Express is an important brand - I suggest that it’s advertised existence attracts passengers, even if they actually get on other trains once they look at the detail.
So all it needs is Brighton (or elsewhere) expresses to be branded as such and non-stop from Gatwick to Victoria. No need for special stock or pricing.
However If you want the special trains to keep the luggage and bumbling tourists off the commuter trains then premium price them but give every air passenger a date stamped voucher that makes the actual price paid the same as the other trains.

 

[Peter stanley]

It could - you are correct but my understanding is that is not expected as current passengers and new passengers would be split across more trains. However I also don't think the biggest demand is from Victoria at all and much of the demand is already at Clapham from South West London as the convenient changing point. If you want to get from Wimbledon or Richmond to Gatwick - you wouldn't go to Clapham, change for Victoria to catch a GatEx, you'd go to Clapham and get on a Southern service direct.

So maybe a compromise would be to keep Gatwick express non-stop during peaks when it is full, not so much with airport passengers but with commuters from Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill and Brighton, but to stop it at East Croydon and Clapham Jct, offpeak when there are less trains through Clapham Jct, (no Caterham/Tattenham fasts), so there would be less operational problems. Legal position may need looking at though concerning contractual obligations/franchising.

 

[Energy]

I think Gatwick Express is an important brand - I suggest that it’s advertised existence attracts passengers, even if they actually get on other trains once they look at the detail.

Most people don't see the Gatwick Express sign and think "Let's go to Gatwick Airport" it's more that people are already going to Gatwick Airport and are looking up ways to get there which will show the other non GX services

 

[Meerkat]

Most people don't see the Gatwick Express sign and think "Let's go to Gatwick Airport" it's more that people are already going to Gatwick Airport and are looking up ways to get there which will show the other non GX services

I think you misunderstand me - I was suggesting that maybe the existence of Gatwick Express makes people who are using the airport think there are fast trains and trains are a good way to travel. They then look it up and find it’s cheaper to use other services.
A bit like car companies using motorsport - Dave watched Touring Cars and so associated Vauxhall With being sporty.....before buying a Cavalier 1.6L.

 

[Energy]

I think you misunderstand me - I was suggesting that maybe the existence of Gatwick Express makes people who are using the airport think there are fast trains and trains are a good way to travel. They then look it up and find it’s cheaper to use other services.
A bit like car companies using motorsport - Dave watched Touring Cars and so associated Vauxhall With being sporty.....before buying a Cavalier 1.6L.

Probably not, Gatwick is quite far out anyway so the cost of a taxi is enough to make people check public transport.

The car analogy is a bit different, people may think a brand of having certain qualities. Just because they percieve Vauxhall as sporty doesn't mean they think Peugeot as sporty, they may both be cars but different brands, similar to GX and trains serving Gatwick.

 

[Meerkat]

Probably not, Gatwick is quite far out anyway so the cost of a taxi is enough to make people check public transport.

The car analogy is a bit different, people may think a brand of having certain qualities. Just because they percieve Vauxhall as sporty doesn't mean they think Peugeot as sporty, they may both be cars but different brands, similar to GX and trains serving Gatwick.

Not even going to check the taxi when there is an express train!
i was thinking of rail being Vauxhall and other car companies being other transport modes.

 

[stuu]

Arguably, the GatEx only fare should be *reduced*, specifically to attract Airport passengers onto it!

That's one of the the most sensible ideas I have read on this forum, why not incentivise people to use the emptier trains?

 

[Mikey C]

I think most people are aware of the trains to Gatwick. If they prefer to drive or take a taxi, it's because it's cheaper, faster or more convenient, especially as most Gatwick airport users don't live in Central London

 

[Meerkat]

I think most people are aware of the trains to Gatwick. If they prefer to drive or take a taxi, it's because it's cheaper, faster or more convenient, especially as most Gatwick airport users don't live in Central London

Aware because they have heard of Gatwick Express

 

[London Trains]

What everyone also needs to remember is that Gatwick is not the airport where the majority go from London. Most people in London will go to Heathrow, if possible. Gatwick is very appealing for Sussex and the south coast, and for that reason all Southern and Thameslink services call there.

If you look at loading on Gatwick Express, at least the Gatwick terminators, you will find basically all the services are nearly empty. The only busy Gatwick Express services are the peak time and weekend daytime Brighton services, but this is due to passengers going to Brighton (or any of the other commuter stops added in the peak). This shows that these paths are needed for better services directed at commuters and day trippers, not shuttles from an airport. Additionally, COVID will further decrease airport demand.

The paths would be better used for a decent 4tph service to Brighton, evenly spaced and all calling at Clapham Jct, East Croydon and Gatwick, and then the other paths can either be used to end splitting at Haywards Heath, or potentially for a new, fast service (to supplement Portsmouth / Soton / Bognor services) to Crawley and Horsham and beyond. Gatwick will not lose out since all these services will still call there

 

[cle]

Meerkat, every Londoner knows they can take Southern for a few quid less and barely 5 mins more. Often more frequent, even if less clock-face. Most foreign visitors know that too, it's not a very secret route.

Thameslink clocks in quicker than Gatwick Express too (from London Bridge), and again is cheaper. Anyone from the City uses it, and from much of East and North London.

Once Crossrail opens, GatEx will be even less synonymous with the main route to Gatwick, despite the name. And opening it up to be a regular Southern class of service offers immediate triage to the wider BML issues and Croydon bottleneck, which otherwise is 10+ years off a resolution. The DFT ruling on services skipping CJ seems daft, but how binding is it now that all are operated by the same TOC?

 

[30907]

The idea is that travellers would be spread across so many more trains, that they wouldn't be as intrusive. Schiphol doesn't have this issue, or Zurich. People join the regular trains and mix accordingly. Piccadilly line too...

While I think that may be the least worst solution, Schipol and Zurich are only 10min out from the city centre, rather than 35min for a Gatwick with 2 stops, so not really comparable (either for the airport user, or the rest of the travellers).

 

[cle]

While I think that may be the least worst solution, Schipol and Zurich are only 10min out from the city centre, rather than 35min for a Gatwick with 2 stops, so not really comparable (either for the airport user, or the rest of the travellers).

True, although Schiphol to Central is 15-20, and with a stop or two. Zuid is nothing of course.

Both of those metros are smaller, with the airports closer. 30 mins is not so bad. As said, Gatwick travellers use commuter trains already. People have to share.

Those same commuting folks benefit from great Gatwick access when they need it!

 

[theironroad]

It seems that the Gatwick Express is still suspended and has been since March. Can't imagine it returning in the foreseeable.

Was the stock dedicated and is it being used elsewhere or in storage?

Same with crew, I believe the Gatwick express drivers, hosts , station staff are dedicated to GX services so what's happening with them?