England & Wales Tracing App to be released Sept 24th

[DelayRepay]

You can cancel one if you press cancel when you scan in. I don't think you can delete them unless you hack around with the database. You can clear the app's data, though.

I think you can. There's a link somewhere to 'My Data' and they appear with what I think is a delete icon next to the individual entries. I haven't tried actually deleting one but it looks like it's possible.

I refuse to download anything that this lot want me to and I do not want an arbitrary two week imprisonment because I walked past somebody who ten days later tested positive.

It's your choice of course, but that's not how it works. The parameters are broadly that you spent 15 minutes within approx 2 meters of the person. Walking past someone in the street should not generate an alert. Sitting next to them on the bus might do.

And (currently) isolation based on an alert is not mandatory, unlike isolation instructed by T&T.

 

[nlogax]

Great link from @bspahh and I'd urge anyone with objections to the app to read it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you can. There's a link somewhere to 'My Data' and they appear with what I think is a delete icon next to the individual entries. I haven't tried actually deleting one but it looks like it's possible.

Ah, yes, it's hidden under "about" and yes you can delete checkins.

 

[takno]

It's the NHS and Public Health bodies who ask you to download the app. It does not ask for any personal information. It uses frequent (I don't know how frequent) Bluetooth scans to note which other app-using phones you have been near for a period of many minutes. And it notifies your phone if the owner of another such phone tests positive. If lots of people download it, and it works as advertised, it will hasten the relaxing of the Covid restrictions.

It ought to be able to hasten the relaxing of the restrictions. I don't believe it will. I have literally zero faith in either the Scottish or English governments. I think the app is a potentially very valuable tool, but I'm utterly disinclined to put tools at their disposal

 

[Jamiescott1]

Been to quite a few places over the weekend, including out of London, and still not seen anywhere with the NHS code on display.

I've been to 2 bars in London (both displaying the qr code), borough market (displaying it at the entrance) and a pub in the middle of no where (displaying it).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've been to 2 bars in London (both displaying the qr code), borough market (displaying it at the entrance) and a pub in the middle of no where (displaying it).

I've seen it popping up in all manner of places...the most entertaining one being the bogs in a motorway service station - I'm not waving a camera around in there, I don't want to be arrested!

 

[nlogax]

It ought to be able to hasten the relaxing of the restrictions. I don't believe it will. I have literally zero faith in either the Scottish or English governments. I think the app is a potentially very valuable tool, but I'm utterly disinclined to put tools at their disposal

This is where the rubber meets the road. Even considering the false start (unless you were on the IoW) and the lengthy delay, it seems to be a very sound app that does exactly what it needs to do. I feel far more people would be inclined to use it if our respective governments held up their ends of the bargain re. manual track and trace and widespread testing availability.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is where the rubber meets the road. Even considering the false start (unless you were on the IoW) and the lengthy delay, it seems to be a very sound app that does exactly what it needs to do. I feel far more people would be inclined to use it if our respective governments held up their ends of the bargain re. manual track and trace and widespread testing availability.

Yes, that is a good summary of the situation to me.

 

[bspahh]

Great link from @bspahh and I'd urge anyone with objections to the app to read it.

Thanks. Its in this post, #294:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...eleased-sept-24th.209098/page-10#post-4794211

 

[WestRiding]

Quite a simple question i suppose, but one to which i can find no hard and certain answer.

In the UK it is not a legal requirement to own a Smart Phone, or even a Telephone. So if i want to go to a pub or wherever, that asks or tells me to Scan the QR code, to which i cannot, Can they legally refuse me service? And if not, where can i find the information to back me up, when turned away? Like i said, there is no requirement to own a phone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They can legally refuse you service, yes, as phone ownership is not a protected characteristic. Other than protected characteristics, there is no requirement for any business to serve any individual.

However most of them won't want to lose the business, and so will operate a manual alternative.

 

[221129]

Can they legally refuse me service?

Yes they can.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Like i said, there is no requirement to own a phone.

There is also no requirement for any business to serve you.
So yes, they can deny you service.

 

[WestRiding]

Ahhh, ok then. Didnt think they would be able to, it must discriminate against a large amount of the population. Hopefully customers will not return when its back to normal.

 

[221129]

Ahhh, ok then. Didnt think they would be able to, it must discriminate against a large amount of the population. Hopefully customers will not return when its back to normal.

In what way does it discriminate please?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Ahhh, ok then. Didnt think they would be able to, it must discriminate against a large amount of the population. Hopefully customers will not return when its back to normal.

Some discrimination is totally legal.
For example a lot of places are becoming card only. Even before COVID hit.
They are perfectly allowed to do that!

What you will probably find is similar to places that are card only (and were before the pandemic), the places that are saying you have to have the app have taken an assessment of their usual custom and worked out that most of their custom will still be fine!
E.g. if they have a usual demographic who are say 20-40's with disposable income, then the vast vast majority of those people will have a smartphone, and a decent amount of those will either have the app already or will be willing to download it. If those demographics line up, then it makes more sense for the business to accept losing a tiny percentage of its custom in return for not having to deal with a manual track and trace policy.

 

[A Challenge]

In what way does it discriminate please?

It discriminates against people who do not have a smartphone, which is still discrimination, if not illegal discrimination, given that lack of smartphone ownership is not a protected characteristic. There is also indirect discrimination, which it possibly could be argued to be on the basis of age, but I wouldn't think so.

 

[DelayRepay]

Legally they can refuse you service but there's no reason to do as capturing details manually on paper is also allowed.

They may have mis-understood what is required of them. Communicating rules clearly is not this government's strong point.

You could refer them to this page: https://faq.covid19.nhs.uk/article/KA-01137/en-us?parentid=CAT-01035&rootid=CAT-01032

 

[WelshBluebird]

Legally they can refuse you service but there's no reason to do as capturing details manually on paper is also allowed.

They may have mis-understood what is required of them. Communicating rules clearly is not this government's strong point.

You could refer them to this page: https://faq.covid19.nhs.uk/article/KA-01137/en-us?parentid=CAT-01035&rootid=CAT-01032

As I said above - I doubt it is a misunderstanding, they probably have just looked at the options and decided that the cost and effort of dealing with a manual track and trace process is not work it compared to the percentage of custom lost to people who don't have a smartphone or the app.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It discriminates against people who do not have a smartphone, which is still discrimination, if not illegal discrimination, given that lack of smartphone ownership is not a protected characteristic.

Discrimination is legal and often desirable - for instance, car insurance calculates your price entirely on that basis, and I doubt people would be happy if it didn't discriminate as most peoples' insurance would go right up if everyone paid the same, as it'd have to take account of a footballer's 17 year old son learning to drive in a £200,000 sports car.

There is also indirect discrimination, which it possibly could be argued to be on the basis of age, but I wouldn't think so.

I would say not, as plenty of older people have smartphones.

Perhaps as a result of this more will get them and realise the benefits.

 

[DelayRepay]

As I said above - I doubt it is a misunderstanding, they probably have just looked at the options and decided that the cost and effort of dealing with a manual track and trace process is not work it compared to the percentage of custom lost to people who don't have a smartphone or the app.

The cost of a manual system is virtually zero, some paper, a pencil and a few minutes of admin time each day. Some venues might have decided it's not worth the hassle, but in the current climate I would imagine most are keen to get as much custom as they can.

I guess it depends on the venue, but I would not assume that many places have made a decision to abandon the paper systems they were running until Thursday last. If I ran a venue, I'd want to work with the app for a little while before abandoning paper, to gauge what proportion of customers were using it. If I found the majority were then at that point I might retire my paper system, but not before.

 

[ainsworth74]

Just because it isn't direct discrimination (smartphone ownership not being a protected characteristic as defined by the Equality Act 2010) doesn't mean that it isn't indirect discrimination. You could argue, for example, that insisting someone check-in using the app is indirectly discriminatory for disabled people as some may find it harder/impossible to use a smartphone in this way. But, this is the sort of thing that would have to be tested in court as you would defend yourself on the basis that it was legitimate measure in pursuit of a legitimate aim (health and safety of staff and customers). That argument, however, would be significantly (perhaps even fatally) undermined by the Government regulations and guidance not require the use of the app only that the details are recorded either via app or via other methods.

So I wouldn't be quite so quick to jump to the "smartphone ownership isn't a protected characteristic therefore it's not illegal discrimination if people have to use the app" conclusion. I think, all in all, it probably isn't for businesses and groups that are correctly following the "app or alternative method" of recording contract tracing information. But for a business that is insisting on using the app? I can see arguments being made. Whether anyone will actually make them and whether they would be successful is however is quite another thing! Plus it's far far easier to just take your business elsewhere in such a situation!!

 

[WestRiding]

Well, my parents are some of those who don't have a Smart Phone. They have all on with the Sky Remote. After frequenting their Local for the last 13 years, they got turned away from said Local on Saturday because they could not scan a QR code. They don't even know what a QR code is. (they have a basic mobile, with big buttons, it calls and sends texts)
Up until last week, the pub had been handing out a slip of paper with name, number and time on it.

 

[AM9]

The cost of a manual system is virtually zero, some paper, a pencil and a few minutes of admin time each day. Some venues might have decided it's not worth the hassle, but in the current climate I would imagine most are keen to get as much custom as they can.

I guess it depends on the venue, but I would not assume that many places have made a decision to abandon the paper systems they were running until Thursday last. If I ran a venue, I'd want to work with the app for a little while before abandoning paper, to gauge what proportion of customers were using it. If I found the majority were then at that point I might retire my paper system, but not before.

I think that judging by the experience if some here where paper systems are operated in a casual way - probably violating Data Protection legislation, that many busineses would rather not get involved with it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that judging by the experience if some here where paper systems are operated in a casual way - probably violating Data Protection legislation, that many busineses would rather not get involved with it.

I don't overly see why it's hard to have a pad of writing paper, and have people write name, phone number and arrival time on it and post it in a closed ballot-style cardboard box for that day. That would then be put in an envelope marked with the date and put in the cash safe. Every day, remove and shred/burn the envelope that has reached 22 days old.

This is completely GDPR compliant and is really, really, really easy. It's so obvious that it utterly flummoxes me as to why every business isn't doing it that way.

 

[DelayRepay]

I think that judging by the experience if some here where paper systems are operated in a casual way - probably violating Data Protection legislation, that many busineses would rather not get involved with it.

Most businesses seem to have been managing up until Thursday. Why did it suddenly become a problem? To be honest if they can't manage to collect the T&T data in a way that complies with data protection laws, you have to wonder how they manage to process any other data e.g. table/appointment bookings, employee details, CCTV images etc.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The cost of a manual system is virtually zero, some paper, a pencil and a few minutes of admin time each day. Some venues might have decided it's not worth the hassle, but in the current climate I would imagine most are keen to get as much custom as they can.

I guess it depends on the venue, but I would not assume that many places have made a decision to abandon the paper systems they were running until Thursday last. If I ran a venue, I'd want to work with the app for a little while before abandoning paper, to gauge what proportion of customers were using it. If I found the majority were then at that point I might retire my paper system, but not before.

It is more than just "a few mins of admin" if they do get a case though as they have to manually go through their records.
Plus you have the whole GDPR / data protection element, making sure data is properly destroyed etc. as AM9 has said, I wouldn't be surprised if some places just decided they can't be bothered with it given there is now a method that removes any faff from the business owner apart from a printed bit of paper and some blu-tack.

As I said, there are some businesses that likely won't ever get anyone who can't use the app. Some of the places that have gone card only in recent years that are targeting people between 20 and 40 say. For those places, it makes no sense at all to support another means when their business doesn't require it.

For village or town locals - I agree it doesn't make business sense.

 

[AM9]

I don't overly see why it's hard to have a pad of writing paper, and have people write name, phone number and arrival time on it and post it in a closed ballot-style cardboard box for that day. That would then be put in an envelope marked with the date and put in the cash safe. Every day, remove and shred/burn the envelope that has reached 22 days old.

This is completely GDPR compliant and is really, really, really easy. It's so obvious that it utterly flummoxes me as to why every business isn't doing it that way.

Because businesses and their staff are generally ingnorant (or at best poorly informed) about the finer points of full GDPR compliance, despite most larger operations providing training for it. I can explicityl remember two restaurants that I have visited where the list of names and phone contact numbers were on a list where every customer could photograph the entries before them.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Most businesses seem to have been managing up until Thursday. Why did it suddenly become a problem? To be honest if they can't manage to collect the T&T data in a way that complies with data protection laws, you have to wonder how they manage to process any other data e.g. table/appointment bookings, employee details, CCTV images etc.

It isn't that it suddenly became a problem. Its more that it is something they now can offload to another process that they don't have to manage.
In terms of bookings etc - a lot of places don't do them, and those that do tend not to allow the general public to add their data to them, and won't be required to go through that list at a moments notice from the track and trace lot.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Quite a simple question i suppose, but one to which i can find no hard and certain answer.

In the UK it is not a legal requirement to own a Smart Phone, or even a Telephone. So if i want to go to a pub or wherever, that asks or tells me to Scan the QR code, to which i cannot, Can they legally refuse me service? And if not, where can i find the information to back me up, when turned away? Like i said, there is no requirement to own a phone.

At the pub I went to on Saturday you could either check in with the App or sign into a book. All covered off. The manager even offered to write our details in for us.