Saltley firemen needed to have their Weetabix.

[36270k]

The problem was BR not using small enough coal.
All other railways used screened coal so that lumps were about the size of a fist.
Large lumps of coal could not enter the stoker feed trough.

 

[Bald Rick]

Route knowledge of Saltley men was legendary. Not for nothing was the story that when Neil Armstrong first arrived on the Moon with Apollo 11, he found Saltley men waiting to bring it back.

That can’t be right ... Armstrong arrived on the Moon in the Eagle, not Apollo 11

 

[Taunton]

That can’t be right ... Armstrong arrived on the Moon in the Eagle, not Apollo 11

Not an error. Apollo 11 was the name of the overall mission. Eagle was the callsign of the Lunar Module element of the hardware

 

[richardsun]

The Railway owned and staffed all the "Railway lodges" there were numerous lodges throughout the country.Saltley at one time just after nationisation lodged at Carlisle, Leeds,Rowsley,Peterboro',Lincoln,Sheffield and Swansea!

Thanks Saltleyman, interesting.
Any insight into what they were like? Big dormitories, like hostels? Would they be sociable places or more just a place to quietly bed down.
I wonder if any of the buildings still survive?

 

[John Webb]

Thanks Saltleyman, interesting.
Any insight into what they were like? Big dormitories, like hostels? Would they be sociable places or more just a place to quietly bed down.
I wonder if any of the buildings still survive?

Terry Essery in "Saltley Firing Days" describes Carlisle's 'The Barracks' as it was known as "Large and modern, and in an entirely different class to the one at Sheffield." He goes on to say that the washroom had baths and showers, a self-service canteen, well-appointed bedrooms that were sound-proofed and a drying room for clothing which he much appreciated. The Sheffield Lodge he describes as having adequate if unappetising foods, reasonably clean and comfortable beds, but subject to much noise all day from an adjacent shunting spur and situated in a filthy area, although clean inside.

Additional info: Another Midlands railwayman, Bill Alcock, has also written at length in "A Locoman's Log" covering his footplate life 1937-85 (Silver Link Publishing, 1996, ISBN 1 85794 083 0). He also mentions the Carlisle barracks, Leeds (where they had to sleep in an old camping coach), Mold (of Victorian construction with 24 bedrooms but where they had to cook their own meals) and Peterborough (no description, but complains the water was very hard there compared to home!).

I've no idea if any buildings survive.

 

[Saltleyman]

I think that the hostel at Camden still exists on the Up side just before Chalk Farm, Monument Lane men used to lodge there in the 1960/70's after the hostel at Willesden closed, i lodged at both places on loan from Saltley to Monument Lane also re Saltley men lodging they also at one time lodged at Farnley Junction and also before the hostel at Kingmoor they lodged at Durran Hill then Upperby.They also lodged at Leeds Holbeck working a train which ran 15 mins behind the Carlisle/Glasgow train mentioned earlier.

 

[AndyPJG]

The problem was BR not using small enough coal.
All other railways used screened coal so that lumps were about the size of a fist.
Large lumps of coal could not enter the stoker feed trough.

As Terry Essery in his aforementioned book says, coaling at Carlisle had supplies of the required graded coal (same source as used on the IoM ferries), but Saltley shed did not have supplies of suitably sized coal, with lumps of coal too big to enter the screw auger.

 

[ilkestonian]

You have to wonder why, bring a fast freight, it was routed like that?

Part of the reason dates back to before 1923.

Saltley was a Midland Railway shed, it's drivers would (by and large) only sign Midland roads and the Midland road to Carlisle, after the Settle and Carlisle was built was via this route.

Even after the 1923 grouping and nationalisation in 1948, old loyalties and practices persisted. Railways have always been conservative and slow to change.

Added to that, the working probably evolved over the many decades, serving specific goods yards and depots en route, and until the freight scene changed beyond all recognition in the sixties, many of the old flows continued, and fitted into a vast and complex network.

So basically, there was little or no reason to change it.

 

[Taunton]

I wonder where else went all over?

Bristol Bath Road used to do Plymouth, Paddington, Swansea, Shrewsbury, Oxford, Salisbury, Weymouth, Derby.

 

[Saltleyman]

re the Saltley to Carlisle work, before the 9f's were allocated to Saltley (92165/66/67 for this work) Saltley kept a special stud of black 5's 44805/10/12/13/14 for the Carlisles they only worked these trains working local trip work in between.
The idea was to keep the locos "in house" and they were maintained in tip top condition.However Carlisle had a nasty habit of pinching them for other work one was spotted at Wick another at Oban ! this obviously didn't go down well with Saltley which had to use less well maintained locos on the Carlisle work.

 

[Loppylugs]

Think the railway owned lodgings at least at some points, in big railway centres. I'm thinking more like a hostel than a B&B. would be interesting to hear views of staff as have posted above on that actually.

The railway certainly had their own hostels as I lived in the one at Reading for three years. I shared a room with two other firemen, we were all on different shifts so sleeping was very difficult. More established residents had a room to themselves. You would inform the management as to the time you wanted waking and this was duly done. The canteen was open 24/7. The only double-home job at Reading was a parcel train originating from Southampton which we relieved on the west curve and called at Oxford, Banbury, Leamington, Birmingham Snow Hill and Wolverhampton. Loco to Oxley shed and on to the railway hostel for ten hours rest. The train was worked through the early hours and was booked as eight hours, however in the month approaching Christmas this rose considerably. Return working was a freight from Wolverhampton to Basingstoke.

 

[furnessvale]

The railway certainly had their own hostels as I lived in the one at Reading for three years. I shared a room with two other firemen, we were all on different shifts so sleeping was very difficult. More established residents had a room to themselves. You would inform the management as to the time you wanted waking and this was duly done. The canteen was open 24/7. The only double-home job at Reading was a parcel train originating from Southampton which we relieved on the west curve and called at Oxford, Banbury, Leamington, Birmingham Snow Hill and Wolverhampton. Loco to Oxley shed and on to the railway hostel for ten hours rest. The train was worked through the early hours and was booked as eight hours, however in the month approaching Christmas this rose considerably. Return working was a freight from Wolverhampton to Basingstoke.

I lived in Aldersbrook House, Ilford, for nearly 3 years 1973-76 when working on the Kings Cross suburban electrification. All single rooms. I was fortunate in that when I arrived the only spare room was on the lodge corridor, normally reserved for overnighters like footplate men. Given the amount of bed linen changing etc on this corridor, it was always allocated the best cleaner. Some of the other corridors were not so fortunate!

 

[WesternLancer]

The railway certainly had their own hostels as I lived in the one at Reading for three years. I shared a room with two other firemen, we were all on different shifts so sleeping was very difficult. More established residents had a room to themselves. You would inform the management as to the time you wanted waking and this was duly done. The canteen was open 24/7. The only double-home job at Reading was a parcel train originating from Southampton which we relieved on the west curve and called at Oxford, Banbury, Leamington, Birmingham Snow Hill and Wolverhampton. Loco to Oxley shed and on to the railway hostel for ten hours rest. The train was worked through the early hours and was booked as eight hours, however in the month approaching Christmas this rose considerably. Return working was a freight from Wolverhampton to Basingstoke.

Thanks for this reply - when was this date wise roughly if you don't mind me asking?

 

[randyrippley]

re the Saltley to Carlisle work, before the 9f's were allocated to Saltley (92165/66/67 for this work) Saltley kept a special stud of black 5's 44805/10/12/13/14 for the Carlisles they only worked these trains working local trip work in between.
The idea was to keep the locos "in house" and they were maintained in tip top condition.However Carlisle had a nasty habit of pinching them for other work one was spotted at Wick another at Oban ! this obviously didn't go down well with Saltley which had to use less well maintained locos on the Carlisle work.

Possibly a silly question, but if the work was deemed worthy of a 9F, why were they previously allocated to a Black 5 and not an 8F?

 

[ilkestonian]

Possibly a silly question, but if the work was deemed worthy of a 9F, why were they previously allocated to a Black 5 and not an 8F?

Just a thought, what were the maximum allowed speeds of 8Fs compared to 9Fs?

I think some 8Fs were rebalanced for higher speed, but not sure when this was done.

Maybe 8Fs were too slow?

 

[Loppylugs]

Thanks for this reply - when was this date wise roughly if you don't mind me asking?

This was the early sixties. The hostel housed enginemen unable to sustain jobs at their home depots due to overmanning, so which ever depot had vacancies took these men on. There were Scotsmen, Welshmen and a few Cornish lads. I was fortunate in being a local lad at the time my parents moved to the South Coast and there was a vacancy in the hostel.
For anyone who knows Reading, the hostel was on the approach road to the rear of the station off the Caversham Road and opposite the fire station. The signal works was behind the hostel.

 

[WesternLancer]

This was the early sixties. The hostel housed enginemen unable to sustain jobs at their home depots due to overmanning, so which ever depot had vacancies took these men on. There were Scotsmen, Welshmen and a few Cornish lads. I was fortunate in being a local lad at the time my parents moved to the South Coast and there was a vacancy in the hostel.
For anyone who knows Reading, the hostel was on the approach road to the rear of the station off the Caversham Road and opposite the fire station. The signal works was behind the hostel.

Thanks for that. Cheers.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Crewe (North ?) had a regular job to Perth with a Stanier Pacific right through via Shap obviously - load 14 or so , which must have been a seriously tough job for the fireman.

 

[Bald Rick]

Crewe (North ?) had a regular job to Perth with a Stanier Pacific right through via Shap obviously - load 14 or so , which must have been a seriously tough job for the fireman.

I’ve read a story / anecdote about a fireman who did that run; possibly even on these pages. I imagine Winters were fun.

 

[WesternLancer]

Crewe (North ?) had a regular job to Perth with a Stanier Pacific right through via Shap obviously - load 14 or so , which must have been a seriously tough job for the fireman.

BR missed a trick not advertising that as a footplate experience course....

 

[6Gman]

Again, according to Essery, they left at 4.45pm. He does not give the booked arrival time at Carlisle, but from the timings of the return trip the following day - 4.03pm from Carlisle and arrive at Washwood Heath at 11.33pm, the timings would be about 7.5 to 8 hours, depending on the circumstances.
They were paid on a mileage basis, and although they only [?] worked 4 days per week, it was the equivalent in terms of £.s.d. of a whole week of nights.

Route knowledge of Saltley men was legendary. Not for nothing was the story that when Neil Armstrong first arrived on the Moon with Apollo 11, he found Saltley men waiting to bring it back.

Saltley Seagulls.


("They go coast to coast and s**t on everyone")

All in good humour. I think.

Thanks Saltleyman, interesting.
Any insight into what they were like? Big dormitories, like hostels? Would they be sociable places or more just a place to quietly bed down.
I wonder if any of the buildings still survive?

The Crewe one is now a YMCA. If you're walking from the station to the DRS depot at Gresty Bridge or to 'scope Basford Hall it's the redbrick building on the left hand side after the football ground, car park and railway offices and before the Shrewsbury line bridge.

Crewe (North ?) had a regular job to Perth with a Stanier Pacific right through via Shap obviously - load 14 or so , which must have been a seriously tough job for the fireman.

Top Link Crewe North job. Men were allowed to opt out of moving into the link on seniority without penalty if they didn't fancy it.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

While this thread started as discussion about Saltley crews I'll throw in another "Weetabix" job. In late steam days Holbeck had a freight turn which involved working to Carlisle and back in a single shift meaning the fireman was expected to shovel several tons of coal single-handed with relatively little by way of break time. No mechanical stoker though most drivers would take a spell with the shovel at some point to provide a little respite. No wonder that in practice many locomen were actually glad to move to the luxury of the control desk of a diesel or electric. Note also that Tornado, a reasonably high performance steam loco built to modern tolerances, typically works mainline trips with multiple footplate crew members. It's no coincidence that steam loco crews tended to have a somewhat wiry build.

 

[Taunton]

What was the actual pay addition for such jobs? I seem to recall it was something like for every 15 miles over 120 in a shift, an extra hour's pay.

Crewe to Perth must be about 300 miles, which would be another 12 hours on this basis, or 2.5 times normal pay. And the same the next day coming back.

 

[Saltleyman]

Possibly a silly question, but if the work was deemed worthy of a 9F, why were they previously allocated to a Black 5 and not an 8F?

The 9f's used on the Carlisle jobs were the only three fitted with Berkeley Automatic Stokers and were used as a "test bed" to see if it was worth fitting the equipment to more locos, they decided to allocate these locos to Saltley Depot for use only on the Water Orton to Carlisle(Glasgow) and return working Carlisle to Washwood Heath trains however the test wasn't all that successful and the locos were converted to manual firing

What was the actual pay addition for such jobs? I seem to recall it was something like for every 15 miles over 120 in a shift, an extra hour's pay.

Crewe to Perth must be about 300 miles, which would be another 12 hours on this basis, or 2.5 times normal pay. And the same the next day coming back.

The pay for the Saltley Crews on the Carlisle lodge turns was equal to a Sunday turn for each trip ie time and three quarters which worked out at 56 hours per week

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

The only double-home job at Reading was a parcel train originating from Southampton which we relieved on the west curve and called at Oxford, Banbury, Leamington, Birmingham Snow Hill and Wolverhampton. Loco to Oxley shed and on to the railway hostel for ten hours rest. The train was worked through the early hours and was booked as eight hours, however in the month approaching Christmas this rose considerably. Return working was a freight from Wolverhampton to Basingstoke.

I wonder whether this was a working that I have a vivid memory of! As a young boy of eleven I went with Dad on the weekend 'Aberdonian' railtour in June 1966, quite an adventure for me! Anyway, at 1am on the Saturday morning we paused at Banbury and at the adjacent platform was a parcels train facing north..we couldn't but help note the rather incongruous sight of two Bulleid Pacifics at Banbury both facing north! So my question would be...is it likely that the parcels train I saw was the one you mention or was it a train from the SR terminating at Banbury?
You seem to infer that there wasn't a loco change on your journey from Reading to Wolverhampton. During steam days I would have thought that an ex-GWR loco would have taken over the train at Reading from a SR loco and then continued northwards.
(Sorry about the drift from the very interesting thread started by @Saltleyman

 

[Merle Haggard]

If the criterion is amount of coal to be shovelled, I think that the tenders of Stanier Pacifics carried more coal than those of the freight locos mentioned. Carrying more doesn't necessarily mean more is used on a shift, of course; and a debate might also be had about whether firing at 80 m.p. h. on a Pacific is more demanding than at 35 m.p.h on a rough-rider.
8Fs could go; I travelled on a railtour in the 60's which included an 8F-hauled stage on a main line. When the loco was attached, there was a discussion between some of the passengers and the crew, accompanied by enthusiastic gestures and, just possibly, cash. Word then spread down the train that '80 with an 8' was being attempted. Almost everyone on board was timing it - the target wasn't achieved, but a creditable 75 - 78 m.p.h. was. (the '80 with an 8' might have been triggered by the '90 with a 9(F)' stories of the day)

 

[Clarence Yard]

Route knowledge of Saltley men was legendary. Not for nothing was the story that when Neil Armstrong first arrived on the Moon with Apollo 11, he found Saltley men waiting to bring it back.

Ha ha that quote always makes me chuckle.
[/QUOTE]

Each region had a variation on that joke. Substitute Didcot for the WR, whose drivers could also wander a bit. The furthest one Didcot driver got was Inverness and they even managed to get a Hymek to Mossend!

The Saltley turns to Scotland in steam days could be a bit daunting for a young fireman. They earned their money on those runs.

 

[Saltleyman]

If the criterion is amount of coal to be shovelled, I think that the tenders of Stanier Pacifics carried more coal than those of the freight locos mentioned. Carrying more doesn't necessarily mean more is used on a shift, of course; and a debate might also be had about whether firing at 80 m.p. h. on a Pacific is more demanding than at 35 m.p.h on a rough-rider.
8Fs could go; I travelled on a railtour in the 60's which included an 8F-hauled stage on a main line. When the loco was attached, there was a discussion between some of the passengers and the crew, accompanied by enthusiastic gestures and, just possibly, cash. Word then spread down the train that '80 with an 8' was being attempted. Almost everyone on board was timing it - the target wasn't achieved, but a creditable 75 - 78 m.p.h. was. (the '80 with an 8' might have been triggered by the '90 with a 9(F)' stories of the day)

The coal shovelled by the fireman depended mainly on the weight of the train being hauled and a lot depended on the mechanical state of the locomotive they all were different beasts i have relieved the return working of the Carlisle on many occasions on arrival at Washwood Heath mainly with a Stanier 5 to find the tender nearly completely empty which would indicate that the fireman had had a rough trip.The firemen working the Pacifics had at least the services of a coal pusher fitted to the tender which made the job a lot easier

 

[randyrippley]

If the criterion is amount of coal to be shovelled, I think that the tenders of Stanier Pacifics carried more coal than those of the freight locos mentioned. Carrying more doesn't necessarily mean more is used on a shift, of course; and a debate might also be had about whether firing at 80 m.p. h. on a Pacific is more demanding than at 35 m.p.h on a rough-rider.
8Fs could go; I travelled on a railtour in the 60's which included an 8F-hauled stage on a main line. When the loco was attached, there was a discussion between some of the passengers and the crew, accompanied by enthusiastic gestures and, just possibly, cash. Word then spread down the train that '80 with an 8' was being attempted. Almost everyone on board was timing it - the target wasn't achieved, but a creditable 75 - 78 m.p.h. was. (the '80 with an 8' might have been triggered by the '90 with a 9(F)' stories of the day)

I read somewhere that the Stanier Pacifics carried enough for an out and back run to Scotland, as suitable quality coal wasn't available there. Said to cause problems if the loco was then "borrowed" for a local service and had to be topped up

 

[furnessvale]

The coal shovelled by the fireman depended mainly on the weight of the train being hauled and a lot depended on the mechanical state of the locomotive they all were different beasts i have relieved the return working of the Carlisle on many occasions on arrival at Washwood Heath mainly with a Stanier 5 to find the tender nearly completely empty which would indicate that the fireman had had a rough trip.The firemen working the Pacifics had at least the services of a coal pusher fitted to the tender which made the job a lot easier

You appear to have missed a very important factor. How heavy handed the driver was.

From first hand info from my brother, a lifetime footplateman steam, diesel and electric, a heavy handed driver could almost reduce a young fireman to tears as his fire went up the chimney.