What EMUs would you order for Chiltern Railways if their lines were electrified?

[SouthEastBuses]

What EMUs would you order for Chiltern Railways if their lines were electrified?

For me, either a Hitachi AT200 (like the class 385 at Scotrail), a Stadler FLIRT (like the class 745 at Greater Anglia) or a CAF Civity (like the class 331 at Northern) would be the best solution for services from London Marylebone to Aylesbury/Oxford/Birmingham Moor Street etc.

 

[Hadders]

A modern version of a 365 would be about right. The interior layout would be about right for the mixture of commuting and longer distance inter-regional services that Chiltern provide.

 

[squizzler]

CAF Civity, but a mix of 397s as well as 331 to provide an appropriate unit for the commuter and intercity services with the economies that come being from the same product range.

 

[popeter45]

Depends on what Models are certified to Run on Third / Fourth Rail lines (e.g. Component clearance)
Personally i would go with a fleet of FLIRT or Aventra with added Third Rail capability for a sub class for Aylesbury Services

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd go for Aventras of the same spec as the London Northwestern 2+2-seated order, but without First Class. 24m vehicles mean a long centre section which gives the feeling of space like an end-doored vehicle, but with the ease of access too. If you doubt that, try a ScotRail Class 380.

Yes, third rail capability would be good, I'm sure Bombardier can do that.

Definitely not CAF, the quality is too much wanting.

Having said that, as a DOO operation I could see the attraction of FLIRTs for the level boarding.

 

[Energy]

5 car class 730/2s (the 2 + 2 seated ones) without first class would be about right. Many Chiltern services are already 5-7 cars long and the ability to have a 10 car train would be good.

However Chilterns DOO agreement allows them to only operate a 9 car or shorter train, in theory renegotiating shouldn't be hard as a 10 car service would only be 1 more car and no jobs would be lost as Chiltern is already DOO.

 

[43096]

What EMUs would you order for Chiltern Railways if their lines were electrified?

For me, either a Hitachi AT200 (like the class 385 at Scotrail), a Stadler FLIRT (like the class 745 at Greater Anglia) or a CAF Civity (like the class 331 at Northern) would be the best solution for services from London Marylebone to Aylesbury/Oxford/Birmingham Moor Street etc.

A modern version of a 365 would be about right. The interior layout would be about right for the mixture of commuting and longer distance inter-regional services that Chiltern provide.

The Class 350/2 fleet, re-fitted for 2+2 seating, would be an ideal candidate. The 110mph capability might be useful, too.

 

[Energy]

The Class 350/2 fleet, re-fitted for 2+2 seating, would be an ideal candidate. The 110mph capability might be useful, too.

Not enough, Chiltern have 28 168s, 4 172s, 39 165s and 6 loco hauled sets. The 172s and 28 of the 165s are only 2 cars long but the other DMUs are 3 cars long or about 3.5 EMU cars (EMUs are typically 20m, 165, 168s and 172s are 23m). Remember that Chiltern are short of stock at the moment and often have far shorter than needed trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

The whole question‘s back to front anyway. When Chiltern gets wired they’ll decided what they need in terms of length and capacity, doors, performance, and invite bids from all manufacturers and Roscos. They won’t look at what’s being delivered in 2020 as though that’s some sort of catalogue...

Let’s just choose from Hitachi, Stadler or CAF but not Bombardier or Siemens. Really?

 

[Energy]

The whole question‘s back to front anyway. When Chiltern gets wired they’ll decided what they need in terms of length and capacity, doors, performance, and invite bids from all manufacturers and Roscos. They won’t look at what’s being delivered in 2020 as though that’s some sort of catalogue...

Let’s just choose from Hitachi, Stadler or CAF but not Bombardier or Siemens. Really?

The other question is when, if you want new stock right now you are going to struggle, Hitachi, Bombardier and CAF are fully booked in the UK. Siemens are a possibility and I don't know how busy Stadler are.

 

[Domh245]

The other question is when, if you want new stock right now you are going to struggle, Hitachi, Bombardier and CAF are fully booked in the UK. Siemens are a possibility and I don't know how busy Stadler are.

Stadler seem to have a relatively long lead time looking at all of their UK orders. It's a very academic argument though as there's definitely no stock being ordered right now - there hasn't even been any announcement of Chiltern electrification so it's best part of a decade away at least

 

[HST43257]

Oxford, Birmingham and Stratford services: 5, 6 or 7 (not sure which) car Class 80x bimodes.
Non-EWR Aylesbury stuff plus the Ruislip and Banbury stoppers: Class 387s
Gerrards Cross and High Wycombe XR services: Class 345s

 

[HSTEd]

No need to order any EMUs.

We already have piles of surplus ones.

 

[swt_passenger]

The other question is when, if you want new stock right now you are going to struggle, Hitachi, Bombardier and CAF are fully booked in the UK. Siemens are a possibility and I don't know how busy Stadler are.

But even if by some surprising decision they decided to start wiring Chiltern now, how long would it be before any EMUs were needed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

No need to order any EMUs.

We already have piles of surplus ones.

350/2s might well be suitable for the local services like the Wycombe stopper (I doubt there's enough of them for them not to need anything else as well), but anything else is ex-BR (or near to it) and probably due for making razor blades or Coke cans, isn't it?

The other question is when, if you want new stock right now you are going to struggle, Hitachi, Bombardier and CAF are fully booked in the UK. Siemens are a possibility and I don't know how busy Stadler are.

They hardly need it right now - they haven't even started pile-driving yet!

 

[Energy]

But even if by some surprising decision they decided to start wiring Chiltern now, how long would it be before any EMUs were needed?

Quite a while, remember how long electirifcstipn takes in this country.

They hardly need it right now - they haven't even started pile-driving yet!

It's a speculative thread, your expecting realism

 

[RichJF]

My hunch is massively refurbed 350s for local services & bimodes/Aventra-derived units for longer distance stuff & shortfall in 350 numbers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My hunch is massively refurbed 350s for local services & bimodes/Aventra-derived units for longer distance stuff & shortfall in 350 numbers.

The /2s are in a good condition and would be fine deployed as they are, give or take a decent deep clean and new seat covers (plus any corrosion work required).

I think they may find a home before the hypothetical electrification of Chiltern, though. There's enough ex-BR kit out there looking tatty - e.g. Northern could replace the 319s with them. So they may not be available by the time someone decides to bother electrifying the Chiltern line.

 

[43096]

e.g. Northern could replace the 319s with them.

Northern are taking 17 ex-WMT 323s to replace their 319s.

 

[Neptune]

Not that any of the above is going to happen in the near future but is everyone forgetting that the 379’s are coming off lease? 30 well appointed units to replace the 28 168’s.

The 37 350/2’s could replace the 41 units of the 165/172 fleet as there would be less doubling up required.

Of course by the time the Chiltern routes do get wired up they’ll most likely order new units of classes that haven’t even been thought of yet so all I’ve said is pretty irrelevant..

 

[HSTEd]

350/2s might well be suitable for the local services like the Wycombe stopper (I doubt there's enough of them for them not to need anything else as well), but anything else is ex-BR (or near to it) and probably due for making razor blades or Coke cans, isn't it?

I don't think late-BR units are quite ready for razor blades yet.

Also coke cans are made from aluminium - so unless they are PEPs it will be pepsi cans...... it would be better if it was the other way around!

 

[MatthewRead]

It'll be interesting to see how it is electrified there has been talk of withdrawing the Metropolitan line to Amersham and Chesham so that the Chiltern line can be fully segregated.

 

[adrock1976]

Assuming London Underground still has responsibility for the ex Metropolitan route via Amersham, I am surprised that nobody has mentioned loco hauled Class 442s yet being as they can run on DC third rail electrification.

On a serious note, if the via Amersham route is transferred to Chiltern/Network Rail, I would have something that is designed for local all station stops that can be specially dedicated to that route.

 

[gg1]

Oxford, Birmingham and Stratford services: 5, 6 or 7 (not sure which) car Class 80x bimodes.
Non-EWR Aylesbury stuff plus the Ruislip and Banbury stoppers: Class 387s
Gerrards Cross and High Wycombe XR services: Class 345s

I really hope bi-modes won't be on the table when the Chiltern lines are eventually electrified. The Snow Hill lines have a decent case for electrification in their own right so it makes sense to do them at the same time as the southern end of the Chiltern route. That leaves you with the Oxford services, running on a half hourly frequency 80% under the wires which makes a strong case for extending electrification from Bicester to Oxford.

 

[Purple Orange]

Surely the consensus on this forum would be a rake of mk3, with a buffet car, painted BR blue & white and pulled by any electric locomotive that existed back the 80s or earlier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the consensus on this forum would be a rake of mk3, with a buffet car, painted BR blue & white and pulled by any electric locomotive that existed back the 80s or earlier.

To be fair, Chiltern were at one point operating a rake of Mk3 LHCS (in the traditional manner, i.e. without DVT, though the set later gained one) which were in BR blue and grey livery

 

[43096]

Surely the consensus on this forum would be a rake of mk3, with a buffet car, painted BR blue & white and pulled by any electric locomotive that existed back the 80s or earlier.

We’ve moved on from that. It’s now either 442s converted to 25kV or 442s being hauled by electric locos.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We’ve moved on from that. It’s now either 442s converted to 25kV or 442s being hauled by electric locos.

Would 90+Mk4 not be the more modern equivalent?

 

[43096]

Would 90+Mk4 not be the more modern equivalent?

Yes. But I’m not sure everyone’s got over the 442s yet.

 

[gg1]

Yes. But I’m not sure everyone’s got over the 442s yet.

No, not when bi-mode is a possibility and there's all these HST power cars available. Stick one on each end of a 442 and you have the perfect bi-mode set.

For the longer distance journeys 373s will do the job nicely, if there's a requirement to run on non electrified sections they can be dragged by a Deltic.