First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[TheGrandWazoo]

There was mostly a e200 or e400mmc on the a17 at least once a week if not more

I meant in terms of what was supposed to be on there, not the random allocations of Tinners on there on a day to day basis

 

[MB162435]

I meant in terms of what was supposed to be on there, not the random allocations of Tinners on there on a day to day basis

They should of ordered E400 MMCs for the A17 not SRs I feel, which have felt wasted by being either to big or too small, with Mousehole Solos and Tinners being favourites when increasing or decreasing capacity

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They should of ordered E400 MMCs for the A17 not SRs I feel, which have felt wasted by being either to big or too small, with Mousehole Solos and Tinners being favourites when increasing or decreasing capacity

They probably wouldn't have been able to afford the extra for e400mmc on the A17.

 

[Goldfish62]

Which continue onto the A1? Presumably these are the workings that will be open top all winter, in theory at least, but only one bus in practice? (sorry, haven't studied the timetables concerned).

If its the same as previously it'll likely be two open top PVR for the A1/3/2 circuit, plus one for the infill A1 journeys.

There was mostly a e200 or e400mmc on the a17 at least once a week if not more

By E200 you mean the ones that went to Somerset? Penzance never operated any of the E200MMCs.

 

[Lizard1324]

They probably wouldn't have been able to afford the extra for e400mmc on the A17.

I suppose the a17 is one of the most profitable routes after the t1/2, u4 and 87, and with other routes that used to have 18 plate e400mmc some will likely come west

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Oct 2020 ==

If its the same as previously it'll likely be two open top PVR for the A1/3/2 circuit, plus one for the infill A1 journeys.
By E200 you mean the ones that went to Somerset? Penzance never operated any of the E200MMCs.

I did mean e200mmc I went on then probaly about 6/7 times last year and I dont use the a17 really alot.
It defiantly wasnt a permanent resident but thibk it was one of the few e200mmc that would float around helston doing the 38, 35, l1 and l2 and fill in for solo sr, but these did sometimes go more west

 

[MB162435]

They probably wouldn't have been able to afford the extra for e400mmc on the A17.

That's true, plus I suppose given that they were replacing the Solars a single decker was all that was needed, the long E200 MMCs would of been perfect but with the Mini SR order it fitted in well with that one instead

 

[83G/84D]

Camborne had four E200MMC’s and they did work the A17 albeit not regularly.

 

[Goldfish62]

Camborne had four E200MMC’s and they did work the A17 albeit not regularly.

I have to say I never ever saw any either physically or via Bustimes on the A17 apart from during the limited period last year when a road closure at Carbis Bay required smaller buses for the diversion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2020 ==

That's true, plus I suppose given that they were replacing the Solars a single decker was all that was needed, the long E200 MMCs would of been perfect but with the Mini SR order it fitted in well with that one instead

E400s for the A17 probably would have been too extravagant, but long E200s probably would have fitted the bill well.

At it is, it's clear that Solos were the wrong decision. The initial planned five covering the whole PVR were reduced to three (with the remaining two arriving in Kernow green instead) and then it was quickly found that none could be used on the route in the summer due to capacity.

 

[Lizard1324]

Is see trident LR02 ... (didn't catch the rest) has broken down on the main road to the lizard and was being lifted by a towing truck, I presume it was on route to do the 251 as that was over 30 mins late today.
I did break down it a very dangerous place and traffic is queuing alot also police were there to help.

 

[MB162435]

E400s for the A17 probably would have been too extravagant, but long E200s probably would have fitted the bill well.

At it is, it's clear that Solos were the wrong decision. The initial planned five covering the whole PVR were reduced to three (with the remaining two arriving in Kernow green instead) and then it was quickly found that none could be used on the route in the summer due to capacity.

Definitely, especially given they already had mainly a MMC fleet it would of fitted in perfectly giving a near Uniform fleet, and without the College contracts the SRs would be sending nearly all their time parked up now, with a uncertain future

Does show the drawbacks of ordering route branded buses, otherwise if all buses were in Kernow Green, spare buses off the Uni and Tinner routes could be used in the Summer without potentially confusing passengers

 

[Goldfish62]

Definitely, especially given they already had mainly a MMC fleet it would of fitted in perfectly giving a near Uniform fleet, and without the College contracts the SRs would be sending nearly all their time parked up now, with a uncertain future

Does show the drawbacks of ordering route branded buses, otherwise if all buses were in Kernow Green, spare buses off the Uni and Tinner routes could be used in the Summer without potentially confusing passengers

It does suggest that price was an issue and only Optare could meet the business case on price. Nice buses to travel on, but really only useful on routes where the smallest E200s won't fit.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I have to say I never ever saw any either physically or via Bustimes on the A17 apart from during the limited period last year when a road closure at Carbis Bay required smaller buses for the diversion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2020 ==


E400s for the A17 probably would have been too extravagant, but long E200s probably would have fitted the bill well.

At it is, it's clear that Solos were the wrong decision. The initial planned five covering the whole PVR were reduced to three (with the remaining two arriving in Kernow green instead) and then it was quickly found that none could be used on the route in the summer due to capacity.

My thought at the time was that they might have gone with 39-45 seat e200mmc. The choice of Solos for the A17 was a bit of a surprise.

 

[Goldfish62]

My thought at the time was that they might have gone with 39-45 seat e200mmc. The choice of Solos for the A17 was a bit of a surprise.

Yes, either them or refurbished and upgraded mid-life double decks (if available).

Mind you, given new E400s were considered acceptable for supported services in the East they surely would have been appropriate for commercial route A17.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, either them or refurbished and upgraded mid-life double decks (if available).

Mind you, given new E400s were considered acceptable for supported services in the East they surely would have been appropriate for commercial route A17.

E400mmc on supported services underwritten by the council so they’d get the return on investment. On the A17, the risk would sit with FK.

Of course, they did have the mid life e400s (33658 etc) but they headed off a couple of years previously. There is a bit of a gap in mid life deckers as nearly all 2010/1 deliveries went to London. The 2012 order (100 B9s and 100 e400s) went to Manchester and Leeds mainly and have been used across the group to upgrade fleets.

 

[Goldfish62]

E400mmc on supported services underwritten by the council so they’d get the return on investment. On the A17, the risk would sit with FK.

Of course, they did have the mid life e400s (33658 etc) but they headed off a couple of years previously. There is a bit of a gap in mid life deckers as nearly all 2010/1 deliveries went to London. The 2012 order (100 B9s and 100 e400s) went to Manchester and Leeds mainly and have been used across the group to upgrade fleets.

Indeed, hence my comment, "if available".

I didn't know about the specific detail of the arrangement for the East E400MMCs. I was aware that the 16 E200MMCs bought by CC were on the condition that all the new buses remained in Cornwall. This agreement of course expired in March and almost quicker than we could blink off shot most of them to Somerset!

 

[MB162435]

It does suggest that price was an issue and only Optare could meet the business case on price. Nice buses to travel on, but really only useful on routes where the smallest E200s won't fit.

Definitely looks like it, had 53256 briefly on the U1 earlier before it was swapped with 33302 at the Campus, always give a lovely smooth ride, although the new screens make scanning your ticket even more difficult due to the layout

 

[richw]

Indeed, hence my comment, "if available".

I didn't know about the specific detail of the arrangement for the East E400MMCs. I was aware that the 16 E200MMCs bought by CC were on the condition that all the new buses remained in Cornwall. This agreement of course expired in March and almost quicker than we could blink off shot most of them to Somerset!

This post is complete rubbish.
All e400mmc were purchased by First, most long before the E200mmc were even thought of and had nothing to do with the council. First can and always have been able to use as they please

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Indeed, hence my comment, "if available".

I didn't know about the specific detail of the arrangement for the East E400MMCs. I was aware that the 16 E200MMCs bought by CC were on the condition that all the new buses remained in Cornwall. This agreement of course expired in March and almost quicker than we could blink off shot most of them to Somerset!

I know you said "if available" - I was just highlighting the availability (or lack of).

The e400mmcs are owned by FK. The green ones went to operate the 27 plus the 21, 87, 93 etc. Most of those routes were tendered and I don't believe there was any financial input from CC in their purchase nor any tender requirements. However, the tender did give a consistent income to rely on so probably helped the investment case. The 27 is perhaps the most curious in that it was mainly commercial (I think) save for the Eve/Sun that is now TfC. However, it may have been that the need to have decker capacity for certain boards/journeys and a long service some distance from a maintenance base (allied to some tender cash) meant a business case could be constructed for that route to get new deckers. The timing of their move to Somerset is coincidental - just that Covid came along and a worsening financial situation. Made perfect financial sense - get the expensive stuff off the books temporarily and instead, make money by hiring to Somerset Passenger Solutions.

That doesn't mean that the A17 would still justify having new (or even mid life) deckers. It did justify getting new fleet in the Solos and I think we were all surprised with that choice. The circumstances are now very different and you do wonder what may have happened with 2020 Vision and future new vehicle investment.

 

[Whiteway215]

Lizard1324, the other day you were discussing the Eden bendis and mentioned First West of England were still running some. It just so happens that First Bath are retiring all their remaining bendis from tomorrow Friday. This is because the Bath University service U3 on which they are used is being withdrawn. However Bath is introducing a Low Emission Zone from next March so the bendis would have been taken off before then anyway.
There are about twelve bendis involved but I don't know if they will be scrapped or sent elsewhere.

 

[Lizard1324]

Lizard1324, the other day you were discussing the Eden bendis and mentioned First West of England were still running some. It just so happens that First Bath are retiring all their remaining bendis from tomorrow Friday. This is because the Bath University service U3 on which they are used is being withdrawn. However Bath is introducing a Low Emission Zone from next March so the bendis would have been taken off before then anyway.
There are about twelve bendis involved but I don't know if they will be scrapped or sent elsewhere.

Thats intresting would be a perfect for eden but its to early i think to decide that so it uncertain.
Question is there any route in cornwall which a bendy could work on maybe the t1 but its the reversing out of the stands and waiting times imagine it at Penzance bus station it would take up all the bays.
But maybe any of the u route as they are already uni branded and I think they would fit around falmouth and imagine how nice a eclipse fusion in kernoe u Brading would look. ( you would be able to get the whole route and village names down thr side)
Also this evening I saw 4 open top decker parked at the rear of the penzance depot what looked to be the only open top alx 400 and president and two e400 I think from the rear and roof design anyone know?.

 

[AB93]

Thats intresting would be a perfect for eden but its to early i think to decide that so it uncertain.
Question is there any route in cornwall which a bendy could work on maybe the t1 but its the reversing out of the stands and waiting times imagine it at Penzance bus station it would take up all the bays.
But maybe any of the u route as they are already uni branded and I think they would fit around falmouth and imagine how nice a eclipse fusion in kernoe u Brading would look. ( you would be able to get the whole route and village names down thr side)
Also this evening I saw 4 open top decker parked at the rear of the penzance depot what looked to be the only open top alx 400 and president and two e400 I think from the rear and roof design anyone know?.

I think the Red Dwarf "They're dead Dave" scene sums up the bendy situation best.

They're all dead. Everybody's dead Dave...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Lizard1324, the other day you were discussing the Eden bendis and mentioned First West of England were still running some. It just so happens that First Bath are retiring all their remaining bendis from tomorrow Friday. This is because the Bath University service U3 on which they are used is being withdrawn. However Bath is introducing a Low Emission Zone from next March so the bendis would have been taken off before then anyway.
There are about twelve bendis involved but I don't know if they will be scrapped or sent elsewhere.

Thats intresting would be a perfect for eden but its to early i think to decide that so it uncertain.
Question is there any route in cornwall which a bendy could work on maybe the t1 but its the reversing out of the stands and waiting times imagine it at Penzance bus station it would take up all the bays.
But maybe any of the u route as they are already uni branded and I think they would fit around falmouth and imagine how nice a eclipse fusion in kernoe u Brading would look. ( you would be able to get the whole route and village names down thr side)
Also this evening I saw 4 open top decker parked at the rear of the penzance depot what looked to be the only open top alx 400 and president and two e400 I think from the rear and roof design anyone know?.

I would think it very unlikely to see them replacing 2004 bendis with 2005 ones - think they’ll be heading for scrap sadly.

 

[swifty]

I would think it very unlikely to see them replacing 2004 bendis with 2005 ones - think they’ll be heading for scrap sadly.

Indeed. They used to head down every summer to help out and two were even painted into Eden livery a few years back. They were soon replaced by Citaros and shipped back to Bath though.

 

[GBM]

Eden don't want any vehicles currently, and they would be thinking of Euro 6 (or above...), hydrogen or electric as and when visitor numbers warrant. Bendies caused problems at various stations on the FK network when they tried a few days trial runs several years back. The one at Truro blocked the station exit when on a T1/2 trial. They will indeed be 'dead' Dave!

 

[richw]

Also this evening I saw 4 open top decker parked at the rear of the penzance depot what looked to be the only open top alx 400 and president and two e400 I think from the rear and roof design anyone know?.

Ex Scarborough Volvo president and 2 E400 for certain. Not sure on 4th

 

[Lizard1324]

Ex Scarborough Volvo president and 2 E400 for certain. Not sure on 4th

The fourth was defiantly the ex London alx 400 which was de roofed as it was the only one without a front windscreen and cover and rather just fully open

 

[Goldfish62]

I know you said "if available" - I was just highlighting the availability (or lack of).

The e400mmcs are owned by FK. The green ones went to operate the 27 plus the 21, 87, 93 etc. Most of those routes were tendered and I don't believe there was any financial input from CC in their purchase nor any tender requirements. However, the tender did give a consistent income to rely on so probably helped the investment case. The 27 is perhaps the most curious in that it was mainly commercial (I think) save for the Eve/Sun that is now TfC. However, it may have been that the need to have decker capacity for certain boards/journeys and a long service some distance from a maintenance base (allied to some tender cash) meant a business case could be constructed for that route to get new deckers. The timing of their move to Somerset is coincidental - just that Covid came along and a worsening financial situation. Made perfect financial sense - get the expensive stuff off the books temporarily and instead, make money by hiring to Somerset Passenger Solutions.

That doesn't mean that the A17 would still justify having new (or even mid life) deckers. It did justify getting new fleet in the Solos and I think we were all surprised with that choice. The circumstances are now very different and you do wonder what may have happened with 2020 Vision and future new vehicle investment.

Yes, I know the E400s are owned by FSW. I have always known that. However, the agreement by which CC purchased the additional E200s for use by FK included the provision that FK wouldn't send the E400s, or any of the rest of the new fleet, elsewhere for as long as they had use of the E200s. CC didn't need to own the E400s for this agreement to be in place.

I also fully understand the reasons and the timing for sending the E400s to SPS and I wonder why we keep having to go through this. However, I don't think your average Cornwall bus passenger would be quite so understanding.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them never return and instead get cascaded elsewhere, together with some of the Solos.

 

[richw]

Yes, I know the E400s are owned by FSW. I have always known that. However, the agreement by which CC purchased the additional E200s for use by FK included the provision that FK wouldn't send the E400s, or any of the rest of the new fleet, elsewhere for as long as they had use of the E200s. CC didn't need to own the E400s for this agreement to be in place.

I also fully understand the reasons and the timing for sending the E400s to SPS and I wonder why we keep having to go through this. However, I don't think your average Cornwall bus passenger would be quite so understanding.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them never return and instead get cascaded elsewhere, together with some of the Solos.

Again you are incorrect.
The agreement was that for every £2 invested by FSW into the 18 plates and 68 plates, CC would provide £1 To match.
That was the only deal.
CC didn’t manage to deliver on the deal and the result was that FSW bought the 31 E400s 4 E200s and the 13 Solos themselves, but CC only paid for the 16 E200s and subsequently took them back.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, I know the E400s are owned by FSW. I have always known that. However, the agreement by which CC purchased the additional E200s for use by FK included the provision that FK wouldn't send the E400s, or any of the rest of the new fleet, elsewhere for as long as they had use of the E200s. CC didn't need to own the E400s for this agreement to be in place.

I also fully understand the reasons and the timing for sending the E400s to SPS and I wonder why we keep having to go through this. However, I don't think your average Cornwall bus passenger would be quite so understanding.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them never return and instead get cascaded elsewhere, together with some of the Solos.

Apologies - it didn't seem clear from what you said. However, the statement about the e400s being tied to Cornwall for as long as the additional 16 e200s were in use isn't something that I've heard before.

It had crossed my mind that the longer Solos could ultimately end up in Somerset working for BoS but whether that would stack up financially, I wouldn't know

 

[richw]

Apologies - it didn't seem clear from what you said. However, the statement about the e400s being tied to Cornwall for as long as the additional 16 e200s were in use isn't something that I've heard before.

See my reply before you. You haven’t heard it because it’s completely incorrect

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2020 ==

It had crossed my mind that the longer Solos

Whether we will keep them on these runs longer term i don’t know, but the long solos are proving perfect fits for at least 3 of the duchy college runs For both loadings and road types used