Scotrail Full Alcohol Ban

[47271]

I can't disagree with any of this in the context of Covid. People taking the train to Fife to avoid central belt pub closures is ridiculous. But hidden in the piece the RMT line is:

"A total ban on alcohol is something we've been advocating for a number of years."

Is that really what they mean? If, in two years time, I'm a tourist travelling from Edinburgh to Inverness and I'm told that I can't be served a drink in my big comfy HST First Class seat, how does that make Scotland look?

I'm not saying that this would necessarily be the outcome, but we need be careful that it isn't.

Covid in Scotland: ScotRail 'considering' alcohol ban on trains

The National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers said the move would be "problematic" but "welcomed".

www.bbc.co.uk

A blanket ban on alcohol on ScotRail services could be imposed as part of Covid safety measures.

The travel operator told BBC Scotland the measure is being considered, although the firm said they were "not in a position" to confirm details.

The National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers said the move would be "problematic" but "welcomed".

It comes after the first minister said more stringent travel rules "need to be considered".

Mick Hogg, regional organiser for the RMT, said despite recent restrictions, rail staff were still facing "increased" anti-social behaviour over the weekend.

"There has always been a concern with anti-social behaviour and assaults on staff, it's an ongoing issue.

"We certainly encourage our people to use the body cameras available in order to send a signal to people, and to report anti-social behaviour to the British Transport Police if it's serious.

"A total ban on alcohol is something we've been advocating for a number of years."

Mr Hogg added that while people were adhering to Covid measures "by and large", staff still face "a lot of negativity" from members of the public towards face coverings and physical distancing.

A ScotRail spokesman said: "More than 90% of customers have complied with the requirement of wearing a face covering onboard trains and at stations since it was made mandatory on 22 June."

There is also concern that people are not abiding by local restrictions in order to visit pubs elsewhere in Scotland and south of the border.
Nicola Sturgeon warned football fans to stay at home ahead of Saturday's Old Firm clash - those hoping to watch the game in Blackpool pubs were told there would be a high police presence.
Meanwhile one train conductor also told the Edinburgh Evening News that busy weekend nights "haven't calmed down" and that people from Glasgow and Edinburgh were travelling to Fife to visit pubs.

Mr Hogg said that while the union would welcome a blanket alcohol ban on trains, rail staff could not enforce it on top of Covid measures.

He said: "We can only advise people they shouldn't be drinking and if that fails it's a matter for the BTP.

"The government's coronavirus measures are a problem for our members as it stands.

"We certainly welcome a ban but it really begs the question - who is going to police it?"

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

If there wasn't a ban, trains would be the only indoor space in Scotland where it is legal to drink alcohol. The problem with that is obvious.

Alcohol fuelled disruption and violence is a huge issue on several routes. A lot of people avoid travelling on late night trains on some routes because it's so bad. I'm only a passenger but I'd love a permanent alcohol ban on some routes.

 

[Llanigraham]

9snip) how does that make Scotland look?

Very sensible!

 

[thenorthern]

I don't think it would be popular permanently. We have very liberal alcohol laws in the United Kingdom and blanket alcohol restrictions like this are not very popular. It would be also very difficult to enforce.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A ban on consumption is probably sensible on the urban routes, but less so on Inter7City, the rural routes and particularly Caledonian Sleeper.

A ban on carrying would be awkward for people who shop by train and for tourists who have purchased whisky to take home.

 

[StephenHunter]

Aren't there already designated 'dry' trains?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren't there already designated 'dry' trains?

That, and a flat ban after 9pm except the Sleeper.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Crosscountry have already stopped the sale of alcohol on services physically in Scotland. Also no alcohol is sold after 10pm on services in England (and Wales when the catering restarts on the 170’s)....

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

A ban on consumption is probably sensible on the urban routes, but less so on Inter7City, the rural routes and particularly Caledonian Sleeper.

A ban on carrying would be awkward for people who shop by train and for tourists who have purchased whisky to take home.

Why are Inter7City trains any different from other ones? It's just one of the several types of trains used on some routes.

Alcohol issues don't just happen in cities either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why are Inter7City trains any different from other ones?

Because they are long distance trains with a catering service.

I was suggesting an outright ban would be sensible on routes that are a bit like Merseyrail or London Overground where you don't really have any need to be drinking anything, let alone alcohol.

 

[alangla]

Funny. Any time I’m on a pisshead express out of Edinburgh or Glasgow there never seems to be anyone actually drinking, generally they’re well tanked up from earlier in the evening. Other than the football brigade, are there really many problems caused (in normal times obviously) by drink being consumed on board between 10am and 9pm?

Overall this seems a bit pointless & just makes long distance travel that little bit less pleasant if it doesn’t get rolled back quickly (which it almost certainly won’t)

 

[47271]

Because they are long distance trains with a catering service.

Which was exactly my point. Has Scotland got such a terrible relationship with alcohol that we can't even SELL it appropriately to fit and proper customers on our long distance services?

 

[sannox]

It wouldn't be enforced. Staff, understandably, don't bother with the current 9pm rule.

There is nothing wrong with people having a beer or a glass of wine as they travel between Glasgow and Inverness. The issue is the commuter suburban services into Glasgow and Edinburgh, where it is only a short ride and there really is no need to drink.

The 'train bevvy' is now a part of people's nights out- esp with the younger generation. Any train into Glasgow on a Friday or Saturday night will have loads of folk knocking it back, even if it's only a 15 minute journey from Paisley etc. Equally the 'safer shores' initiative where BTP had to take action to end chaos at the summer with boozed teens going to Troon and Ayr, most of them not even 18.

Sadly Scotland has a really unhealthy attitude to drink.

 

[alangla]

I was suggesting an outright ban would be sensible on routes that are a bit like Merseyrail or London Overground where you don't really have any need to be drinking anything, let alone alcohol.

Before all the current issues started, there used to be a couple of blokes on my train home at night (SPT land, roughly 6pm) that would crack open a (one) beer on the train home. They never annoyed anyone else, so I really don’t see the harm in it. Football matches are a different matter, the interior is usually littered with empty beer cans & Buckfast bottles but let’s be honest, ScotRail & BTP are going to do pretty much nothing about that, ban or no ban.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Because they are long distance trains with a catering service.

I was suggesting an outright ban would be sensible on routes that are a bit like Merseyrail or London Overground where you don't really have any need to be drinking anything, let alone alcohol.

They're not, they're trainsets that are used on several routes, some of which are long distance. Other trainsets also serve these routes.

A ban on only the shortest inner city routes would be pointless, the worst problems are on slightly longer central belt and fife trains, which can be up to or over an hour long.

 

[sannox]

Funny. Any time I’m on a pisshead express out of Edinburgh or Glasgow there never seems to be anyone actually drinking, generally they’re well tanked up from earlier in the evening. Other than the football brigade, are there really many problems caused (in normal times obviously) by drink being consumed on board between 10am and 9pm?

Overall this seems a bit pointless & just makes long distance travel that little bit less pleasant if it doesn’t get rolled back quickly (which it almost certainly won’t)

I'd say, in my experience it is worse going into Glasgow at night than going out - going in people are pre loading to avoid buying. The hardcore are also still out long after the last trains.

Football crowds are variable depending upon teams but tend to group together and BTP are on them. Concerts can be worse for trouble in my experience. It's bizarre!

 

[Taunton]

I don't think it would be popular permanently. We have very liberal alcohol laws in the United Kingdom and blanket alcohol restrictions like this are not very popular. It would be also very difficult to enforce.

Well there's been no alcohol drinking allowed on TfL services in London for years now, covering double the population of Scotland. Hasn't led to riots.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well there's been no alcohol drinking allowed on TfL services in London for years now, covering double the population of Scotland. Hasn't led to riots.

Nor indeed has it stopped people drinking on what are almost all DOO services with no on board staff at all.

 

[47271]

They're not, they're trainsets that are used on several routes, some of which are long distance. Other trainsets also serve these routes.

A ban on only the shortest inner city routes would be pointless, the worst problems are on slightly longer central belt and fife trains, which can be up to or over an hour long.

At the other extreme to an HST I've happily bought a beer off a trolley on a 156 between Glasgow and Fort William.

Are you saying that alcohol shouldn't be served on any Scotrail service? Because that's what the union's implying, and that's what we need to mind doesn't happen or else we'll become a laughing stock.

What I'm trying to protect is no different to what happens in the Club Car of the Caledonian Sleeper. You can drink, but you need to buy it on board.

 

[MrEd]

A ban on consumption is probably sensible on the urban routes, but less so on Inter7City, the rural routes and particularly Caledonian Sleeper.

A ban on carrying would be awkward for people who shop by train and for tourists who have purchased whisky to take home.

I don’t think Scotrail could ever enforce a ban on carrying alcohol in sealed containers, especially as it would be a huge inconvenience to folk who were just doing some shopping etc. I think it would be a visible alcohol ban. Sometimes drunk travellers do cause problems on trains in Scotland (often it is obvious that they have consumed large quantities of beer etc. during the journey, because of all the opened cans on the table) and not always on the routes you would expect.

This may be slightly off-topic- I do wonder, though, whether some Scotrail routes will ultimately lose their on-board catering completely (or have it severely curtailed), as catering services on some routes were probably already distinctly unprofitable pre-Covid and passengers have now got into the habit of buying before boarding (I don’t think Scotrail have yet restored catering on any of their services, and CS don‘t provide anything at the moment other than a breakfast in a bag). From my experiences of the Kyle line, the trolley attendant on the 08:55 out of Inverness would be lucky if they sold four cups of tea, even in summer, and takings on the 10:56 and 13:35 were scarcely better. I was once on the 10:56 out of Inverness on a weekday in November (train about a third full) and a trolley was provided, but the attendant sold nothing all trip. I just can’t imagine that if you announced to any passenger on any of these Kyle trains that you couldn’t drink alcohol on them they’d be at all put out.

With on-board catering going forward, perhaps it’s going to be a question of maintaining the facilities that folk expect from these services while trying to cut the losses. Of course, TOCs need to be very careful about making staff redundant- but I think a lot of Scotrail catering staff have been redeployed (mainly in station and on-train cleaning) during the restrictions, so perhaps this will continue. I‘m not even convinced that the catering on the sleeper will go back to what it was before- there will still be a lounge car on the other side, I’m certain of that, but there‘s some talk among the staff that I know of simplifying the offering, both evenings and mornings. The loss or curtailment of on-board catering may, of course, encourage passengers to bring their own alcohol, so consumption might not be as easy to regulate.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

At the other extreme to an HST I've happily bought a beer off a trolley on a 156 between Glasgow and Fort William.

Are you saying that alcohol shouldn't be served on any Scotrail service? Because that's what the union's implying, and that's what we need to mind doesn't happen or else we'll become a laughing stock.

What I'm trying to protect is no different to what happens in the Club Car of the Caledonian Sleeper. You can drink, but you need to buy it on board.

A laughing stock? I think that's exaggeration. A laughing stock among who? Trainspotters?

99% of passengers in Scotland don't care about the Inter7City First Class experience.

 

[sheff1]

If, in two years time, I'm a tourist travelling from Edinburgh to Inverness and I'm told that I can't be served a drink in my big comfy HST First Class seat, how does that make Scotland look?

Scotland seemingly doesn't care how it looks. Hotels are already banned from serving residents the national drink with or after their evening meal.

 

[Alanko]

If, in two years time, I'm a tourist travelling from Edinburgh to Inverness and I'm told that I can't be served a drink in my big comfy HST First Class seat, how does that make Scotland look?

Progressive? We're reminded up here reasonably frequently that we are the drunken louts of the UK/Europe after all.

I've never felt the need to resort to drinking to stave off boredom on longer journeys. Nor do I think it enhances the experience. I have been on enough train journeys rendered less pleasant by drunks.

 

[185143]

At the other extreme to an HST I've happily bought a beer off a trolley on a 156 between Glasgow and Fort William.

Are you saying that alcohol shouldn't be served on any Scotrail service? Because that's what the union's implying, and that's what we need to mind doesn't happen or else we'll become a laughing stock.

What I'm trying to protect is no different to what happens in the Club Car of the Caledonian Sleeper. You can drink, but you need to buy it on board.

This seems to be the norm in Northern Ireland. On the Translink NI Railways branded services, which is everything excluding the Enterprise Belfast-Dublin service, no alcohol is permitted *at all*. I don't think you're even supposed to carry it onboard, but obviously that's totally unenforceable if it's in your bag or something.

On the Enterprise, you can drink alcohol but only if it's been sold from the buffet onboard. Yet on Irish Rail services in the south, you can take your own on and drink it, with a few well publicised exceptions.

 

[tbtc]

I'm sure that the same would have been said about banning smoking on trains a generation ago ("it'll be impossible to enforce" etc) but it's a long time since I've seen anyone smoking on a train.

Whilst I appreciate some posters on here are focussed on being able to drink in First Class, we've got to remember that the trains are a working environment for staff and that they have to deal with the consequences of alcohol consumption.

So many threads about DOO on here focus on extreme examples and hypotheticals that are trotted out to justify keeping a Safety trained second person on board "because safety". Well, banning alcohol consumption on board would help staff safety, it'd help the safety of other passengers, it'd reduce the incidences of drunk people injuring themselves (e.g. getting off trains)

It wouldn't entirely *stop* alcohol consumption on trains (just like there are always a minority of people happy to flout laws - we don't give up on drink driving laws just because a tiny number of people continue to get behind the wheel when drunk - TfL didn't abandon their alcohol ban just because Dianne Abbott flouted it), but it'd make the railway a more pleasant and safer place.

If alcohol was invented today I doubt it'd be allowed on board trains - but we are where we are and have to deal with the fact that some people do drink on trains and that this does cause some problems.

However, I'd rather that we kept the status quo that tried to permit some kind of two tier system where one class of passenger was allowed to get drunk whilst others weren't, like the idea that you can get the cans out on an HST from Dundee to Edinburgh but not if your journey is on a 158... or the idea that the Caledonian Sleeper passengers are somehow "better" than the plebs on daytime services and therefore it's acceptable for the Lords and Ladies to drink. It needs to be simple and it needs to avoid any suggestion that there some people are "second class" (regardless of what type of ticket they purchased!).

 

[MrEd]

A laughing stock? I think that's exaggeration. A laughing stock among who? Trainspotters?

99% of passengers in Scotland don't care about the Inter7City First Class experience.

I agree with this entirely. For most normal passengers, the train is just a means to an end (of getting from A to B), not an experience of any kind. I must say I wouldn’t be bothered in the slightest if I couldn’t have an alcoholic drink on a Scotrail train, and I’m sure many normal passengers feel that way. They’re probably more likely to be annoyed by drunk and disorderly passengers (particularly if, in these times, they don’t respect social distancing) than the non-availability of alcohol.

Scotland seemingly doesn't care how it looks. Hotels are already banned from serving residents the national drink with or after their evening meal.

To be fair, this is an emergency measure during a global pandemic (the world has bigger things to be worrying about than whisky tasting), and is hardly going to be permanent (I’d give it a few weeks maximum). Right now hotels are probably just pleased they can stay open (and at least make money on food and accommodation, which you can probably make a bigger profit on). Most visitors to rural Scotland are a decent and respectful bunch and will be understanding of the purpose of the restrictions, to protect communities against the virus.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I don’t think Scotrail could ever enforce a ban on carrying alcohol in sealed containers, especially as it would be a huge inconvenience to folk who were just doing some shopping etc. I think it would be a visible alcohol ban. Sometimes drunk travellers do cause problems on trains in Scotland (often it is obvious that they have consumed large quantities of beer etc. during the journey, because of all the opened cans on the table) and not always on the routes you would expect.

This may be slightly off-topic- I do wonder, though, whether some Scotrail routes will ultimately lose their on-board catering completely (or have it severely curtailed), as catering services on some routes were probably already distinctly unprofitable pre-Covid and passengers have now got into the habit of buying before boarding (I don’t think Scotrail have yet restored catering on any of their services, and CS don‘t provide anything at the moment other than a breakfast in a bag). From my experiences of the Kyle line, the trolley attendant on the 08:55 out of Inverness would be lucky if they sold four cups of tea, even in summer, and takings on the 10:56 and 13:35 were scarcely better. I was once on the 10:56 out of Inverness on a weekday in November (train about a third full) and a trolley was provided, but the attendant sold nothing all trip. I just can’t imagine that if you announced to any passenger on any of these Kyle trains that you couldn’t drink alcohol on them they’d be at all put out.

With on-board catering going forward, perhaps it’s going to be a question of maintaining the facilities that folk expect from these services while trying to cut the losses. Of course, TOCs need to be very careful about making staff redundant- but I think a lot of Scotrail catering staff have been redeployed (mainly in station and on-train cleaning) during the restrictions, so perhaps this will continue. I‘m not even convinced that the catering on the sleeper will go back to what it was before- there will still be a lounge car on the other side, I’m certain of that, but there‘s some talk among the staff that I know of simplifying the offering, both evenings and mornings. The loss or curtailment of on-board catering may, of course, encourage passengers to bring their own alcohol, so consumption might not be as easy to regulate.

I can definitely see catering vanishing on some routes. The West Highland always makes quite a good intake, however the Glasgow - Carlisle service, the trolley would be lucky if they sold anything at all.

 

[thenorthern]

Well there's been no alcohol drinking allowed on TfL services in London for years now, covering double the population of Scotland. Hasn't led to riots.

Most metro systems don't allow alcohol consumption.

 

[JohnMcL7]

Funny. Any time I’m on a pisshead express out of Edinburgh or Glasgow there never seems to be anyone actually drinking, generally they’re well tanked up from earlier in the evening. Other than the football brigade, are there really many problems caused (in normal times obviously) by drink being consumed on board between 10am and 9pm?

Overall this seems a bit pointless & just makes long distance travel that little bit less pleasant if it doesn’t get rolled back quickly (which it almost certainly won’t)

Perhaps I'm just unlucky but the few times I've used a Scotrail train in the morning there's been quite a few people drinking on the train on intercity routes. The last time was particularly unpleasant being stuck between a group of students returning to their flat and a group celebrating a 30th both of who started drinking pretty much the moment the train moved and were extremely noisy for the two hours travelling which made for a thoroughly unpleasant trip. I don't see why other fare paying passengers should have to endure anything like and if the ban sticks in normal times it would make train travel a lot more appealing.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Scotland seemingly doesn't care how it looks. Hotels are already banned from serving residents the national drink with or after their evening meal.

Don't you think we have better things to be worrying about than *how we look* to the small number of tourists venturing here during a pandemic?

This forum is mostly trainspotters, People who consider train journeys to be a romanticised experience. Most of them are from outside of Scotland. To them a Scottish train journey is the experience of sipping a whisky in first class of an "Inter7City" while weaving through the Highlands. They'll probably know the type and number of the engine too. It's not how people in Scotland use the railway.

To most people in Scotland, using the train is an endurance event. It's getting to work, going home at night, going to see friends. They're far less likely to be sipping whisky on the Caledonian Sleeper or the "Inter7City" and far more likely to be surrounded by drunken kids downing cheap cider on the Fife Circle. How Scotland looks to random trainspotters and the vanishingly few tourists who visit during a pandemic doesn't come into the equation.

If you think that alcohol is somehow integral to Scotland's railways then use an example that's actually relevant to people who actually use trains in Scotland.