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Proposed withdrawal of Ellesmere Port - Manchester - Leeds trains

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Old Yard Dog

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Northern Trains' December 2020 Track Access Application includes replacing the current twice daily Ellesmere Port - Warrington BQ - Manchester Victoria - Bradford - Leeds and return Mon-Fri services with extra Chester - Leeds services. Ellesmere Port would have one through train to Liverpool via Helsby and Runcorn instead, giving it through Liverpool services via two different routes.

This is a clear breach of the franchise agreement which requires two trains per day each way on the Ellesmere Port to Helsby line and stipulates

"One service departing from Ellesmere Port to Manchester shall arrive at Manchester between 08:00 and 08:59. One service shall depart from Ellesmere Port between 18:15 and 19:29 to Manchester."

"The service departing from Manchester to Ellesmere Port shall depart Manchester between 17:00 and 17:59. In addition to the specified services, one service shall be provided between Warrington Bank Quay and Ellesmere Port which shall call at all intermediate stations, and shall arrive at Ellesmere Port between 06:30 and 07:29."


On Saturdays, the franchise only requires two trains per day between Ellesmere Port and Helsby.

The loss of through services to Manchester is a serious loss to Ellesmere Port passengers who will not only lose fast journey times to Warrington, Manchester and Yorkshire but also connections to the West Coast main line (both directions) at Warrington and to many parts of the country at Manchester. Instead we will be palmed off with a much less useful very sparse service to Liverpool via a more indirect and slower route than that offered by Merseyrail.

Rail services east of Ellesmere Port are slowly but surely being run into the ground. Since the 1980's, the service has been reduced from a half hourly frequency, pre electrification from Hooton to Ellesmere Port, to a train every two hours to Liverpool via Warrington. The franchise requirement was then reduced to four trains a day which ran at very uneven intervals, inconvenient to passengers, mostly just to & from Helsby. The latest franchise reduced the requirement to only two trains per day between Ellesmere Port and Helsby (although, in fact, three are provided). This bitter pill was sweetened by the promise of through trains to Manchester and beyond. But now Northern Trains are planning to take these away.

The current franchise was of course won by Northern Rail, owned by Arriva, who have since been replaced by Northern Trains, owned by the DfT OLR Holdings Limited (DOHL). Northern Rail had shown a total lack of commitment to Ellesmere Port for very many years, running a skeleton service at times convenient to themselves rather than passengers. They decided not to market the new Manchester services, even refusing to put up timetable posters at Ellesmere Port station showing the times of their trains - or to supply posters to Merseyrail (the station operator) to put up on their behalf. This was despite a number of representations from myself and local rail users' groups. The new operator, presumably with many of the same staff, has also failed to put up timetable posters showing either the normal or Covid-19 services. The lack of provision of basic information is not acceptable.
 
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Glenn1969

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That was of course the old franchise plan of which quite a few elements were never implemented due to the Castlefield fiasco. Guess Ellesmere Port losing its 2 trains a day to Manchester and going back to the old timetable is the first casualty of the Castlefield interventions but whether this plan is still extant in the post Covid world remains to be seen
 

Ianno87

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The loss of through services to Manchester is a serious loss to Ellesmere Port passengers who will not only lose fast journey times to Warrington, Manchester and Yorkshire but also connections to the West Coast main line (both directions) at Warrington and to many parts of the country at Manchester. Instead we will be palmed off with a much less useful very sparse service to Liverpool via a more indirect and slower route than that offered by Merseyrail.

"Serious loss"? What was the typical loading per train? Are the train paths better deployed to benefit more people from Chester (that Ellesmere Port passengers can still access by heading to Chester via bus/rail or Helsby by road)?

As a taxpayer funding the service, it only seems proper in my view that finite resources and capacity are deployed to benefit the greatest number of people.
 

M28361M

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Northern Trains' December 2020 Track Access Application includes replacing the current twice daily Ellesmere Port - Warrington BQ - Manchester Victoria - Bradford - Leeds and return Mon-Fri services with extra Chester - Leeds services. Ellesmere Port would have one through train to Liverpool via Helsby and Runcorn instead, giving it through Liverpool services via two different routes.

This is a clear breach of the franchise agreement which requires two trains per day each way on the Ellesmere Port to Helsby line

That was the Arriva Rail North franchise agreement. Does this still apply now that the franchise has been terminated and it is being operated by a DfT-owned company?

The loss of through services to Manchester is a serious loss to Ellesmere Port passengers who will not only lose fast journey times to Warrington, Manchester and Yorkshire but also connections to the West Coast main line (both directions) at Warrington and to many parts of the country at Manchester. Instead we will be palmed off with a much less useful very sparse service to Liverpool via a more indirect and slower route than that offered by Merseyrail.

Depending on the times of the train, changing at Helsby could give reasonable connections for anyone who does wish to travel towards Manchester (does anyone actually use the service for that purpose?).

My understanding is that the diversion of the Leeds-Chester service to Ellesmere Port twice a day was more to do with operational reasons because there was no path available into Chester at those times. That it satisfied a requirement for a "Parliamentary" service was a happy coincidence.

Do you have a link to the application? I assume it is buried on Network Rail's site somewhere but I'm having trouble finding it.
 

Iskra

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The Dalesrail service has been withdrawn for 2020 too. Is that a franchise commitment or not?
 

swt_passenger

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Franchise agreements aren’t set in stone. If the TOC/DfT agree something previously specified isn’t working anymore, why can’t they change it?
 

Glenn1969

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Nobody knows whether they have changed it or not. There were at least 8 planned enhancements that were not delivered due to capacity issues (some were new services and some were upped frequencies) mainly caused by the Castlefield fiasco
 

swt_passenger

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Do you have a link to the application? I assume it is buried on Network Rail's site somewhere but I'm having trouble finding it.
It’s attached to post #5 in this thread from last month:
...in fact it seems this discussion already took place there.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Northern Trains' December 2020 Track Access Application includes replacing the current twice daily Ellesmere Port - Warrington BQ - Manchester Victoria - Bradford - Leeds and return Mon-Fri services with extra Chester - Leeds services. Ellesmere Port would have one through train to Liverpool via Helsby and Runcorn instead, giving it through Liverpool services via two different routes.

This is a clear breach of the franchise agreement which requires two trains per day each way on the Ellesmere Port to Helsby line and stipulates
….
Rail services east of Ellesmere Port are slowly but surely being run into the ground. Since the 1980's, the service has been reduced from a half hourly frequency, pre electrification from Hooton to Ellesmere Port, to a train every two hours to Liverpool via Warrington. The franchise requirement was then reduced to four trains a day which ran at very uneven intervals, inconvenient to passengers, mostly just to & from Helsby. The latest franchise reduced the requirement to only two trains per day between Ellesmere Port and Helsby (although, in fact, three are provided). This bitter pill was sweetened by the promise of through trains to Manchester and beyond. But now Northern Trains are planning to take these away.

My recollection of the service reduction to essentially a parliamentary level was because Cheshire CC refused to support the more frequent service put on by FNW after privatisation.
The franchise managers (TfN/DfT) can always change the service spec.
They have probably decided the through peak EP-Manchester/Leeds services are a luxury and running empty from EP compared to running from Chester.
It might be prompted by TfW reducing/rerouting some peak services via Castlefield (something decided way above local Northern management).
I would have thought a service via Runcorn was an improvement, myself.
It's been on the wish-list for decades.
 

BrianB

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They have probably decided the through peak EP-Manchester/Leeds services are a luxury and running empty from EP compared to running from Chester.

Empty? Didnt you know about the hordes of ..... 'Ellesmere Port passengers who will not only lose fast journey times to Warrington, Manchester and Yorkshire but also connections to the West Coast main line (both directions) at Warrington and to many parts of the country at Manchester'
 
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M28361M

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It’s attached to post #5 in this thread from last month

Thanks. If I'm reading that document correctly, there will still be the same level of service from E.Port to Helsby, but it will not continue to/from Manchester (and might run to Liverpool instead).
 

Bletchleyite

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Do you mean hordes or tens? Does anybody actually know?

Probably single figures. The services are not timed to be useful for a commute to Manchester, are they? I seem to recall them being a bit late (morning) and a bit early (evening)? If so, they probably mostly do a shuffle via Hooton to Chester for onward services, or drive to Helsby (or all the way).

Moderator note: Post split and moved to
 
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4F89

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Beats the crap out of the services available from the real Ellesmere.....
 

M28361M

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The services are not timed to be useful for a commute to Manchester, are they?

In the normal timetable, the main morning departure from Ellesmere Port is at 0715, arriving Manchester Victoria at 0817. Return journey from Vic is at 1707, arriving 1808. I think the latter is probably slightly too early to be useful for a commute if you are a traditional 9-to-5 office worker, unless you work right next door to Victoria or you can be a bit flexible and leave the office a few minutes early.

The COVID emergency timetable saw the service suspended entirely for a time, but at the moment there is one early departure from Ellesmere Port at 0617 and no evening service at all.
 

Bletchleyite

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In the normal timetable, the main morning departure from Ellesmere Port is at 0715, arriving Manchester Victoria at 0817. Return journey from Vic is at 1707, arriving 1808. I think the latter is probably slightly too early to be useful for a commute if you are a traditional 9-to-5 office worker, unless you work right next door to Victoria or you can be a bit flexible and leave the office a few minutes early.

The morning one is a more useful time than I thought. The evening one, I agree too early. As many "9-5" workers are actually 9-5:30, I think if you're only going to have one evening commuter service it needs to depart somewhere around 1745-1755, or ideally you have two, one at about 1720 and one at about 1750-1800.
 

clagmonster

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The franchise agreement was between the Department for Transport and Arriva Rail North. This has now been torn up and is no longer in effect, thus cannot be breached. However, I can clearly see why the users of the line would be upset. I think if something on this scale happened on our local line, the Rail Users Group would at least be writing a strongly worded letter to the relevant stakeholder manager at Northern, if not a letter to the appropriate Member(s) of Parliament.
 

Ianno87

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The franchise agreement was between the Department for Transport and Arriva Rail North. This has now been torn up and is no longer in effect, thus cannot be breached. However, I can clearly see why the users of the line would be upset. I think if something on this scale happened on our local line, the Rail Users Group would at least be writing a strongly worded letter to the relevant stakeholder manager at Northern, if not a letter to the appropriate Member(s) of Parliament.

And that's how we end up with nonsenses of services being designed for a minority of passengers to the detriment of the majority.
 

tavistock

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That was the Arriva Rail North franchise agreement. Does this still apply now that the franchise has been terminated and it is being operated by a DfT-owned company?



Depending on the times of the train, changing at Helsby could give reasonable connections for anyone who does wish to travel towards Manchester (does anyone actually use the service for that purpose?).

My understanding is that the diversion of the Leeds-Chester service to Ellesmere Port twice a day was more to do with operational reasons because there was no path available into Chester at those times. That it satisfied a requirement for a "Parliamentary" service was a happy coincidence.

Do you have a link to the application? I assume it is buried on Network Rail's site somewhere but I'm having trouble finding it.
Hopefully anyone needing to travel to Helsby from Ellesmere Port or Little Sutton, Overpool or Hooton for onward connections to Manchester and beyond will in future be served by Merseyrail services using new bi-mode 777 trains with battery power beyond the third rail limit at Ellesmere Port. Or this just an aspiration rather than a serious proposition?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Previous franchise commitments are toast with Emergency Recovery Measures Agreements, or OLR service agreements (which applies to Northern).
We also know franchises are not coming back in their current form.
OLR will do what the DfT requires with Northern services, and it can't be long before service reductions come in as a result of lack of use under Covid.
Merseyrail is not party to ERMAs or OLR, and will do what Merseytravel wants (and can pay for).
I'm sure we'll see at least a peak service Ellesmere Port-Helsby to connect with services to Manchester/Liverpool.
 

js1000

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Previous franchise commitments are toast with Emergency Recovery Measures Agreements, or OLR service agreements (which applies to Northern).
We also know franchises are not coming back in their current form.
OLR will do what the DfT requires with Northern services, and it can't be long before service reductions come in as a result of lack of use under Covid.
Merseyrail is not party to ERMAs or OLR, and will do what Merseytravel wants (and can pay for).
I'm sure we'll see at least a peak service Ellesmere Port-Helsby to connect with services to Manchester/Liverpool.
Northern Trains usage is holding up better than many other franchises. It's the London and long distance franchises that are taking a clobbering from bread and butter commuter and business travellers now working from home. But yes, expect service reductions from half-hourly to hourly going forward on numerous Northern routes until Covid passes.
 

frodshamfella

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Previous franchise commitments are toast with Emergency Recovery Measures Agreements, or OLR service agreements (which applies to Northern).
We also know franchises are not coming back in their current form.
OLR will do what the DfT requires with Northern services, and it can't be long before service reductions come in as a result of lack of use under Covid.
Merseyrail is not party to ERMAs or OLR, and will do what Merseytravel wants (and can pay for).
I'm sure we'll see at least a peak service Ellesmere Port-Helsby to connect with services to Manchester/Liverpool.

This would be very useful for people living in Ince and Elton.
 

Old Yard Dog

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If the National Rail Planner is to be believed, the proposed service from Ellesmere Port to Liverpool via the Halton Curve will not start in December.

This shows a very early morning Liverpool LS - Warrington BQ - Ellesmere Port (rev) - Helsby diagram which leaves Ellesmere Port at 0633, 5 mins BEFORE the first arrival from the Hooton direction at 0638.

There is then an early evening Helsby - Ellesmere Port (rev) - Warrington BQ - Liverpool LS diagram.

What is unclear is where the stock goes to after arriving at Helsby in the morning. And likewise how the stock gets to Helsby in the evening. Realtime trains seems to suggest ECS workings from Helsby to Chester. Can anybody confirm this?
 

Eccles1983

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Dunno but it's a horrific mismash of depots.

Lime Street don't sign Helsby to Chester. Man Vic doesn't sign Ellesmere port. Neither sign the Halton curve.
 

Llandudno

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If the National Rail Planner is to be believed, the proposed service from Ellesmere Port to Liverpool via the Halton Curve will not start in December.

This shows a very early morning Liverpool LS - Warrington BQ - Ellesmere Port (rev) - Helsby diagram which leaves Ellesmere Port at 0633, 5 mins BEFORE the first arrival from the Hooton direction at 0638.

There is then an early evening Helsby - Ellesmere Port (rev) - Warrington BQ - Liverpool LS diagram.

What is unclear is where the stock goes to after arriving at Helsby in the morning. And likewise how the stock gets to Helsby in the evening. Realtime trains seems to suggest ECS workings from Helsby to Chester. Can anybody confirm this?
It looks as though it is a deliberate attempt to make the service as useless as possible, they can then prove no one uses the line and then can operate a one train per week, probably on a Saturday, similar to the old Chester to Runcorn one way parliamentary service prior to reopening the Halton Curve
 

FrodshamJnct

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If the National Rail Planner is to be believed, the proposed service from Ellesmere Port to Liverpool via the Halton Curve will not start in December.

This shows a very early morning Liverpool LS - Warrington BQ - Ellesmere Port (rev) - Helsby diagram which leaves Ellesmere Port at 0633, 5 mins BEFORE the first arrival from the Hooton direction at 0638.

There is then an early evening Helsby - Ellesmere Port (rev) - Warrington BQ - Liverpool LS diagram.

What is unclear is where the stock goes to after arriving at Helsby in the morning. And likewise how the stock gets to Helsby in the evening. Realtime trains seems to suggest ECS workings from Helsby to Chester. Can anybody confirm this?

Yes, that’s correct.
 

Bletchleyite

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It looks as though it is a deliberate attempt to make the service as useless as possible, they can then prove no one uses the line and then can operate a one train per week, probably on a Saturday, similar to the old Chester to Runcorn one way parliamentary service prior to reopening the Halton Curve

The service has been "as useless as possible" for over 30 years.
 
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