Possible improvements to services serving Ellesmere Port

[Bletchleyite]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...llesmere-port-manchester-leeds-trains.205152/

Do you mean hordes or tens? Does anybody actually know?

Probably single figures. The services are not timed to be useful for a commute to Manchester, are they? I seem to recall them being a bit late (morning) and a bit early (evening)? If so, they probably mostly do a shuffle via Hooton to Chester for onward services, or drive to Helsby (or all the way).

I still very much think the fix here is to extend one of the two Merseyrail TPH to Helsby, possibly using the battery feature. Much easier to do than Ormskirk or Kirkby because the line hasn't been lopped. Perhaps this will be used for a trial of the battery feature at some point?

 

[Chris Butler]

I travelled Manchester Vic to Ellesmere Port last summer. The timing is such that Manchester Vic was crowded overall, but loading was still only ten or so leaving Manchester and four (two of us and two others) at Ellesmere Port.

 

[TheGrew]

TBH I have always thought that Ellesmere port would be better served to the east by having Merseyrail extended as far as Helsby with a reasonably timed connection onward from there.

 

[Bevan Price]

I travelled Manchester Vic to Ellesmere Port last summer. The timing is such that Manchester Vic was crowded overall, but loading was still only ten or so leaving Manchester and four (two of us and two others) at Ellesmere Port.

That train would probably get a lot more passengers if it called at Newton Le Willows & Earlestown (as do most of the other Leeds / Chester services). Indeed, until the last timetable, the saturday equivalent also omitted Warrington Bank Quay, being booked non-stop from Manchester to Runcorn East.

 

[Llandudno]

Surely the best short term fix is an hourly class 153 shuttling between Ellesmere Port and Helsby.
Try and build up some demand before considering expensive biomode Merseyrail trains

 

[M28361M]

Surely the best short term fix is an hourly class 153 shuttling between Ellesmere Port and Helsby.
Try and build up some demand before considering expensive biomode Merseyrail trains

I know the local rail user group at one point investigated the possibility of a Parry People Mover. Not sure how feasible that would be as the line is still used for freight.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TBH I have always thought that Ellesmere port would be better served to the east by having Merseyrail extended as far as Helsby with a reasonably timed connection onward from there.

When the road bridge over the railway replaced the adjacent level crossing at Ellesmere Port station (early 60s), the question was "Why is it so high?".
The answer was it was to allow for overhead electrification of the railway, to potentially offer a Birkenhead-EP-Helsby-Liverpool loop electric service.
The Liverpool-Runcorn-Crewe line had just been wired (Wirral mainline trains terminated at Birkenhead Woodside and Merseyrail terminated at Rock Ferry).
We're still waiting.

 

[frodshamfella]

TBH I have always thought that Ellesmere port would be better served to the east by having Merseyrail extended as far as Helsby with a reasonably timed connection onward from there.

That is the answer.

 

[Ianno87]

That train would probably get a lot more passengers if it called at Newton Le Willows & Earlestown (as do most of the other Leeds / Chester services). Indeed, until the last timetable, the saturday equivalent also omitted Warrington Bank Quay, being booked non-stop from Manchester to Runcorn East.

You could still serve Earlestown etc. with the service diverted to Chester.

 

[frodshamfella]

Probably single figures. The services are not timed to be useful for a commute to Manchester, are they? I seem to recall them being a bit late (morning) and a bit early (evening)? If so, they probably mostly do a shuffle via Hooton to Chester for onward services, or drive to Helsby (or all the way).

I still very much think the fix here is to extend one of the two Merseyrail TPH to Helsby, possibly using the battery feature. Much easier to do than Ormskirk or Kirkby because the line hasn't been lopped. Perhaps this will be used for a trial of the battery feature at some point?

This would be the best solution, then Ellesmere Port would receive a useable service towards Helsby.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Surely the best short term fix is an hourly class 153 shuttling between Ellesmere Port and Helsby.
Try and build up some demand before considering expensive biomode Merseyrail trains

While this sounds OK in principle for passengers from Ellesmere Port, it wouldn't be too good for those starting their journeys at Overpool or Little Sutton which are both in very populated areas. Connections are Ellesmere Port and Helsby have always been random with no thought at all put into passenger convenience. Having to change twice would make the Little Sutton/Overpool - Ellesmere Port - Helsby - Manchester route almost as slow as travelling by Liverpool or Chester. And there is always the risk of not getting a seat at Helsby.

Many years ago, I remember missing a tight connection at Helsby after the signalman dispatched an Ellesmere Port train 30 seconds before a late running Manchester - Chester train arrived, forcing me to wait 59 minutes. When I complained he said "There are no connections here!"

The Ellesmere Port - Helsby (and beyond) line will always struggle to attract customers when it is difficult to make return journeys. A more frequent service is needed and the Merseyrail bimodes might be a better solution. Some contributors have mentioned commuters. I suspect that as many, if not more, people commute into Ellesmere Port than out of it. But, apart from Stanlow refinery, the main places of employment like Vauxhall and Cheshire Oaks are well away from the railway.

 

[Gareth]

Sorry but Overpool/Little Sutton to Manchester has got to be a currently near non-extistant passenger flow with only limited potential even if there were direct services. Absolutely anything on a reliable hourly service going east would be a massive gain on the status quo, regardless of the end destination.

The main issue with an hourly shuttle is that the line is so short, a dedicated unit would be sitting at one end or the other, much of the time. Having it part of a larger circuit may not be a reliable proposition.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me, absolutely nothing makes more sense (barring closure) than extending 1tph of Merseyrail to Helsby, which could become an Ormskirk/Kirkby style unconnected dead end to keep the signalling simple. If battery units make that easier, great.

 

[Greybeard33]

To me, absolutely nothing makes more sense (barring closure) than extending 1tph of Merseyrail to Helsby, which could become an Ormskirk/Kirkby style unconnected dead end to keep the signalling simple. If battery units make that easier, great.

Huh? What about the daily freights to the Encirc Glass works at Ince & Elton?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Huh? What about the daily freights to the Encirc Glass works at Ince & Elton?

Sorry, didn't know there were still freights - can that bit, then!

 

[clagmonster]

I would hope in the majority of cases that the TOC and DfT would take a pragmatic view and design the service for the benefit of the majority whilst also considering the needs of the minority. Certainly the RUG I am presently chair of has its share of both successes and failures, although even in the case of the latter we maintain a positive relationship with the TOCs, who generally explain there reasons if they have to turn us down.

In this case, with the RUG seemingly concerned at loss of their morning peak service to Manchester as a result of the congestion at Castlefield. It is clear that the Chester service must be the greatest priority, a compromise solution in the short term could be to provide a connecting service for Ellesmere Port, or a service at a less busy time if that still meets the needs of the passengers. Longer term, if the capacity issue is resolved, it may be a good time for the RUG to campaign for the reintroduction of their direct service.

In this case, as a distant observer, I would agree with Bletchleyite's idea of extending the existing Merseyrail service through to Helsby, hopefully with good connections there for Manchester. This could be achieved either through electrification or through battery units. I would however, due to the nature of the timetable, advocate the extension of the full half hourly service rather than alternate trains. As run time is 12 minutes, a return trip over the extension would take 30 minutes, thus requiring only one extra unit, driver and guard in circulation at any one time.

 

[Greybeard33]

The presence of freight on the line is a complication that militates against a Merseyrail extension. Merseyrail was designed as a semi-detached network with minimal track sharing with National Rail or freight services. Track sharing would increase the risk of importing delays that could propagate across the Merseyrail network, given the interlocking nature of the Merseyrail timetable.

Although it should be possible to slot the freights in between a half hourly Merseyrail service, costly signalling upgrades might be needed for reliable operations. The freight arrival and departure procedures currently rely on telephone communication between the Helsby signaller and the shunter operating the ground frame in the Elton sidings.

Platform extensions would be needed at Helsby and Ince & Elton, further eroding the business case.

 

[frodshamfella]

I wouldn't dead end it at Helsby for reasons above, plus why cut the line off from the rest of the network, that's an issue that will need to be sorted out at Kirkby and Ormskirk for Merseyrail extensions there. There is a crossover just outside Helsby for a train leaving platform 4 to cross over to the up line to E Port.

 

[TheGrew]

Would the current layout allow a dedicated track each for Merseyrail and another for Freight? Merseyrail could continue to be isolated (with potential to electrify just one track beyond to Helsby if batteries didn't work) and freight could continue to be pathed.

 

[Greybeard33]

Would the current layout allow a dedicated track each for Merseyrail and another for Freight? Merseyrail could continue to be isolated (with potential to electrify just one track beyond to Helsby if batteries didn't work) and freight could continue to be pathed.

Possibly, but resignalling would be needed. There is a ladder-type double junction between the main line and the Hooton branch at Helsby, so the freights would have to use the Up Hooton (southern) track, through Platform 3, in both directions - a westbound freight could not access the Down Hooton (Platform 4) track from the Up Main. Merseyrail would have to use the Down Hooton track bidirectionally all the way from Ellesmere Port and reverse in Helsby Platform 4. With this arrangement the freights would have to cross the Merseyrail track to get to/from the Elton sidings, with the potential for conflicts - the turnout speed is only 15mph.

Alternatively, Helsby Junction could be remodelled to a single lead type in order that the freights could run through Platform 4 in both directions, with Merseyrail reversing in Platform 3. A new crossover would then be needed between Ince & Elton and the sidings junction, in order that Helsby-bound Merseyrail services could cross to the Up line without conflicting with the freights.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Platform extensions would be needed at Helsby and Ince & Elton, further eroding the business case.

Will the 777s not have SDO? The platform at Green Lane will end up with at least one door hanging off on a double set, I think it already does (or close to it) with 6.507, hence the DO NOT ALIGHT HERE signage.

 

[Greybeard33]

Will the 777s not have SDO? The platform at Green Lane will end up with at least one door hanging off on a double set, I think it already does (or close to it) with 6.507, hence the DO NOT ALIGHT HERE signage.

Is it possible to use SDO at a terminus? The platforms at Helsby are only about 95m.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it possible to use SDO at a terminus? The platforms at Helsby are only about 95m.

95m is fine, the units are only 65m long. I guess arrangements could be made to leave the second set at EP if necessary. I thought you meant *really* short!

Another option if there's no SDO would be to fully lock out the rear unit past EP, and put stop markers off the platform at the intermediate stations northbound. This is probably easier, as you couldn't save a unit by leaving one at EP, it'd just be sat there in the way, presumably requiring staff on board as it'd be on a running line. Might require a couple of signals moving if they are present at the platform ends.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it possible to use SDO at a terminus? The platforms at Helsby are only about 95m.

It depends on what they specify for the particular train’s software, there’s not a simple answer.

For example SWT/SWR definitely had it provided for at least one station. 12 car trains terminate at Alton, with the back end outside the platform, which means the system had to safely deal with the change of ends, making the SDO work to inhibit the front carriages on departure...

 

[158756]

Possibly, but resignalling would be needed. There is a ladder-type double junction between the main line and the Hooton branch at Helsby, so the freights would have to use the Up Hooton (southern) track, through Platform 3, in both directions - a westbound freight could not access the Down Hooton (Platform 4) track from the Up Main. Merseyrail would have to use the Down Hooton track bidirectionally all the way from Ellesmere Port and reverse in Helsby Platform 4. With this arrangement the freights would have to cross the Merseyrail track to get to/from the Elton sidings, with the potential for conflicts - the turnout speed is only 15mph.

Alternatively, Helsby Junction could be remodelled to a single lead type in order that the freights could run through Platform 4 in both directions, with Merseyrail reversing in Platform 3. A new crossover would then be needed between Ince & Elton and the sidings junction, in order that Helsby-bound Merseyrail services could cross to the Up line without conflicting with the freights.

Sounds very expensive for one train which doesn't even run every day. I don't know the signalling capacity on the line but I wouldn't imagine the freight would conflict with an hourly passenger service - if it doesn't fit around a half hourly service just terminate one off peak train at Ellesmere Port to make room.

And that's how we end up with nonsenses of services being designed for a minority of passengers to the detriment of the majority.

The current, future and recent past services on the branch are all nonsense. Wherever it goes, either run it at a decent frequency or close it.

 

[Eccles1983]

Sounds like an expensive crayola solution for a problem no one cares about.

 

[frodshamfella]

How many freight trains on the line are there ?

 

[158756]

How many freight trains on the line are there ?

In the past week, 4. I don't think that's significantly reduced by the pandemic. It's one train a day at most. Not worth any complicated schemes to sort out.

 

[frodshamfella]

In the past week, 4. I don't think that's significantly reduced by the pandemic. It's one train a day at most. Not worth any complicated schemes to sort out.

OK So its not really that often that it should in principal worry Merseyrail too much if they were to expand to Helsby.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Sorry but Overpool/Little Sutton to Manchester has got to be a currently near non-extistant passenger flow with only limited potential even if there were direct services. Absolutely anything on a reliable hourly service going east would be a massive gain on the status quo, regardless of the end destination.

The main issue with an hourly shuttle is that the line is so short, a dedicated unit would be sitting at one end or the other, much of the time. Having it part of a larger circuit may not be a reliable proposition.

How do you know Gareth? I travel regularly from Little Sutton to Manchester and beyond, and am seriously annoyed by the fact that it takes up to 2 hours via Liverpool or Chester. In the 1980's, it was much quicker as we had a half-hourly DMU from Chester to Helsby via Hooton.