Possible improvements to services serving Ellesmere Port

[Gareth]

It's one of the least busiest stations on the least busiest line on the Merseyrail network. It may well be that the locals are all going to Manchester instead but I'll stick my neck out here and say I seriously doubt it. You do it perhaps but as distinguished as you may be, you're not a significant statistic by yourself, in this regard.

Regardless, the service between Ellesmere Port and Helsby/beyond is currently a shade above nonexistent. Any regular service, ANY, would be superior to the status quo. Such a service not going to Manchester would be trivial compared to the benefits the regular service would bring.

 

[frodshamfella]

It does seem to me that Ellesmere Port gets a raw deal, its quite a big town and appears to get overlooked. People there deserve a better service as do those at Ince and Elton, further down the branch. We should trying to move people away from car reliance.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

The question is really how many people travel between Ellesmere Port/Overpool/Little Sutton and Manchester by car on the M56 because the train service is so slow and disconnected. Basically people are not going to use the service unless they can travel in both directions at convenient times.

I used to work in south Manchester but never travelled by train from my local station Little Sutton as it would have taken me 3 to 4 hours each way by train and tram, and cost me over £20 a day. On a good day, I could do it in less than an hour by car. It's only about 35-40 miles.

Ellesmere Port is, of course, a town that workers commute to as well as commute from*. Unfortunately, apart from Stanlow refinery, most of the major employment sites like Cheshire Oaks and Vauxhall are nowhere near the railway and bus links from E. Port station are poor.

If we are to encourage people to travel by rail, then we should be trying to encourage new passenger flows and not just concentrate on lines which have built up large custom because they have good services. It's a case of chicken and egg.

Ellesmere Port has a population of 60,000 so it is not a small town.

(* I made this point on a previous post but it has disappeared)

 

[Llandudno]

It has always surprised me that a connecting specially ‘branded’ bus every 30 minutes hasn’t been provided from Ellesmere Port station to Cheshire Oaks and the Blue Planet.

Whilst it may not be strictly commercial in that the actual fare box revenue may not cover operating costs you would think that the shopping centre and Blue Planet plus Merseyrail may chip in to support such a service, as through tickets from all across the Merseyrail network to Blue Planet and Cheshire Oaks could be offered, thereby attracting additional Merseyrail journeys, which for the most part would be against the peak flow of journeys made.

 

[markymark2000]

It does seem to me that Ellesmere Port gets a raw deal, its quite a big town and appears to get overlooked. People there deserve a better service as do those at Ince and Elton, further down the branch. We should trying to move people away from car reliance.

The question is really how many people travel between Ellesmere Port/Overpool/Little Sutton and Manchester by car on the M56 because the train service is so slow and disconnected. Basically people are not going to use the service unless they can travel in both directions at convenient times.

I used to work in south Manchester but never travelled by train from my local station Little Sutton as it would have taken me 3 to 4 hours each way by train and tram, and cost me over £20 a day. On a good day, I could do it in less than an hour by car. It's only about 35-40 miles.

Ellesmere Port is, of course, a town that workers commute to as well as commute from*. Unfortunately, apart from Stanlow refinery, most of the major employment sites like Cheshire Oaks and Vauxhall are nowhere near the railway and bus links from E. Port station are poor.

If we are to encourage people to travel by rail, then we should be trying to encourage new passenger flows and not just concentrate on lines which have built up large custom because they have good services. It's a case of chicken and egg.

Ellesmere Port has a population of 60,000 so it is not a small town.

(* I made this point on a previous post but it has disappeared)

I think we all need to look at Ellesmere Port and the lack of demand for anything. Eport only has it's Merseyrail service really as a token as it proven by the fact as soon as there is any sort of congestion or event, the Eport branch is cut or ran as a shuttle. The Port as a whole is useless for public transport, they can't hold a bus service to save their life. The main flows from Ellesmere Port are Liverpool (by bus or train) and Chester (by bus generally). The numbers coming out of Ellesmere Port heading towards Manchester I think are minimal. It's a few people who want it and it will just be a high subsidy per passenger route.
Elton demand is limited as well. The bus there is only just staying alive due to the Helsby High students.
Stanlow could be discounted.

While Ellesmere Port is a decent sized town and yes the rail links aren't perfect, I really can't see the demand being there for any rail enhancements. There is little potential for off peak demand as well with COaks being a bus ride away and as anyone who has ever been to EPort will tell you, the town is a dump and not worth visiting.

Also to your point on commuting, how much faster do you think a train to your work would be? You're looking at least 1h30 Little Sutton to Victoria (with the change at EPort). The time it would take you would still be a good 2-3h and the cost would still be around £20 because that is the train fare.

It has always surprised me that a connecting specially ‘branded’ bus every 30 minutes hasn’t been provided from Ellesmere Port station to Cheshire Oaks and the Blue Planet.

Whilst it may not be strictly commercial in that the actual fare box revenue may not cover operating costs you would think that the shopping centre and Blue Planet plus Merseyrail may chip in to support such a service, as through tickets from all across the Merseyrail network to Blue Planet and Cheshire Oaks could be offered, thereby attracting additional Merseyrail journeys, which for the most part would be against the peak flow of journeys made.

It has been provided but it kept being messed around due to low passenger numbers. Merseytravel I think used to fund the GHA 36 (when it served the rail station) and GHA had buses branded (https://www.flickr.com/photos/east_lancs/14994115408). I believe at one point, Merseytravel did offer through tickets but again, it didn't work so it got scrapped. I know M&S funded the X8 as well to serve Eport rail station. The passengers just aren't there for Eport to COaks. Those who used Eport station on the X8, did so to go to Liverpool or Chester because both were faster by X8 than the train.

 

[Gareth]

I think pissing on the town is a bit too easy. Saying it's a dump, no one wants to go there and that's the natural state of things is no long term solution to the town's problems. Same with much of civic Britain outside the South East and certain regional capitals.

There has to be an element of realism about the potential of places like Ellesmere Port but that shouldn't mean its burghers should not have some aspirations to improve the town's lot.

Links to other places are vital for any town's wellbeing. Why Ellesmere Port doesn't generate the traffic you may expect for a place of its size is a conundrum that should be properly looked into.

 

[Llandudno]

I think pissing on the town is a bit too easy. Saying it's a dump, no one wants to go there and that's the natural state of things is no long term solution to the town's problems. Same with much of civic Britain outside the South East and certain regional capitals.

There has to be an element of realism about the potential of places like Ellesmere Port but that shouldn't mean its burghers should not have some aspirations to improve the town's lot.

Links to other places are vital for any town's wellbeing. Why Ellesmere Port doesn't generate the traffic you may expect for a place of its size is a conundrum that should be properly looked into.

 

[Llandudno]

Chicken and egg perhaps...?

If the train service is rubbish or virtually none existent then no one will use it
Invest in a a half decent usable service then patronage will increase.

It may take time, but if you were employed in Manchester or Warrington would you consider buying a house in the Ellesmere Port area and commute to by train, though property prices are probably more reasonable than other parts of Cheshire.

Similarly if you already live in Ellesmere Port would you consider applying for a job in Manchester because the commute by public transport is not practicable?

Short term it just needs an hourly class 153 unit shuttling between Ellesmere Port and Helsby connecting with the Northern Rail skip stop service to Manchester and Leeds.

I doubt it would need many new passengers to make the service worthwhile, especially if the revenue it generated (ie long distance fares to Manchester and beyond) was allocated back to the class 153 shuttle!

 

[Gareth]

If I worked in Manchester I doubt I'd consider living as far out as Ellesmere Port, even with better rail links. So we have to be careful with the "Field of Dreams" approach.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Cheshire Oaks is well served by bus from Chester and Liverpool so workers and shoppers are not going to use the train, walk half a mile to Ellesmere Port bus station, and then catch a bus, and pay considerably more for the privilege of using different operators. The Ellesmere Port PlusBus add-on is so little publicised it is virtually unknown.

Many years ago, there was talk about building a branch from Ellesmere Port to Cheshire Oaks. Trains have enough wait time at Ellesmere Port to allow this. Crazy excuses were offered like shoppers wanting there to be a train waiting at the Oaks at all times - or the proposed curve from the Helsby line being too tight. But the real reason was that Merseyside refused to support this proposal as it might take shoppers away from Liverpool.

Gareth & Llandudno - my employer moved my job from Ellesmere Port to Manchester and I was too near retirement to consider moving house.

And to those of you who portray Ellesmere Port as an impoverished dump, one of the reasons public transport usage is poor may be the town's excellent motorway links, high car ownership and the absence of serious traffic problems.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

To put things into a bit more perspective ...

Ellesmere Port (60k) is similar in size to Hereford, Runcorn, Wrexham, Canterbury, Kettering, ..., it's only slightly smaller than Shrewbury, Carlisle, Crewe and Walsall (70-80k), and it is bigger than Macclesfield, Torquay, Durham, Lancaster, Perth, Ayr, ... (see source below)

1000 Largest Cities and Towns in the UK by Population | The Geographist

The 1000 largest cities and towns in the United Kingdom ranked by population. London is the most populous city in the UK followed by Birmingham and Glasgow.

www.thegeographist.com

All the aforementioned towns have much higher rail usage as they have much better train services.

 

[Ianno87]

To put things into a bit more perspective ...

Ellesmere Port (60k) is similar in size to Hereford, Runcorn, Wrexham, Canterbury, Kettering, ..., it's only slightly smaller than Shrewbury, Carlisle, Crewe and Walsall (70-80k), and it is bigger than Macclesfield, Torquay, Durham, Lancaster, Perth, Ayr, ... (see source below)

1000 Largest Cities and Towns in the UK by Population | The Geographist

The 1000 largest cities and towns in the United Kingdom ranked by population. London is the most populous city in the UK followed by Birmingham and Glasgow.

www.thegeographist.com

All the aforementioned towns have much higher rail usage as they have much better train services.

But all those places act as railheads for a much larger area. In EP's case, Chester performs that function.

 

[6Gman]

To put things into a bit more perspective ...

Ellesmere Port (60k) is similar in size to Hereford, Runcorn, Wrexham, Canterbury, Kettering, ..., it's only slightly smaller than Shrewbury, Carlisle, Crewe and Walsall (70-80k), and it is bigger than Macclesfield, Torquay, Durham, Lancaster, Perth, Ayr, ... (see source below)

1000 Largest Cities and Towns in the UK by Population | The Geographist

The 1000 largest cities and towns in the United Kingdom ranked by population. London is the most populous city in the UK followed by Birmingham and Glasgow.

www.thegeographist.com

All the aforementioned towns have much higher rail usage as they have much better train services.

Rail usage is rarely as simple as the population figure.

 

[Starmill]

There may be significant benefits from the 2tph Mersyrail services to Ellesmere Port extending to Helsby, if:
- The second TfW Chester to Liverpool Lime Street via Runcorn service is delivered, to which there are few barriers once stock and crew are in place
- There is a second Manchester-bound service from Helsby all day. There are even fewer barriers to this, it already runs, it just needs to call. More calls on these services are slowly being introduced already

The major costs are presumably acquiring a couple of additional units and fit out with batteries, and changes to some infrastructure at Helsby would probably be needed. It would be a very notable increase in services indeed at Helsby were this to go ahead, in a relatively short period of time.

This would deliver a strong commuting market from Ellesmere Port to Manchester, something which the current train cannot really do, as well as significantly improving access nationally for Ellesmere Port and offering better Liverpool services.

 

[markymark2000]

I doubt it would need many new passengers to make the service worthwhile, especially if the revenue it generated (ie long distance fares to Manchester and beyond) was allocated back to the class 153 shuttle!

And that then gives 30 minutes dead time doing sweet FA. If you were going to do it, you would run every 30 minutes and have empty trains or you would run WBQ to Ellesmere Port so then the train isn't empty all the time as people from Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn all travel to Warrington.

To put things into a bit more perspective ...

Ellesmere Port (60k) is similar in size to Hereford, Runcorn, Wrexham, Canterbury, Kettering, ..., it's only slightly smaller than Shrewbury, Carlisle, Crewe and Walsall (70-80k), and it is bigger than Macclesfield, Torquay, Durham, Lancaster, Perth, Ayr, ... (see source below)

1000 Largest Cities and Towns in the UK by Population | The Geographist

The 1000 largest cities and towns in the United Kingdom ranked by population. London is the most populous city in the UK followed by Birmingham and Glasgow.

www.thegeographist.com

All the aforementioned towns have much higher rail usage as they have much better train services.

A slight flaw in your calculations which should be looked into. Ellesmere Port as a town has 4 stations. Itself, Overpool, Little Sutton and Capenhurst. These all need to be added together to make up the towns rail usage. This would make it a fair comparison.

We could go into detail about why some of these areas have higher rail usage but in short A good few of them have universities, Some are also commuter towns for big cities and Torquay is a very touristy place. You also have, as Ianno87 says, one or two big interchanges there which are useful.


It's probably worth saying that the 3 lowest usage Merseyrail stations are in the Ellesmere Port area. Little Sutton (116k), Overpool (157k) and Capenhurst (180k). Ellesmere Port itself doesn't fair much better being the 10th least used Merseyrail station. These all have regular half hourly services to Liverpool from early until late, 7 days per week. This is much better than many stations which have more passengers and less services.



The only possible way of Eport getting an enhanced service would be a Merseyrail extension as any services towards Warrington risks causing delays between Frodsham Jct and Helsby (There are already issues sometimes with the 3tph causing congestion without adding another train into the mix). Any service towards Manchester is a non starter I think. Any paths into Manchester need to be used for some of the overcrowded local services or need to run to Chester where the proven demand is for the line.

The Eport line east to Helsby and beyond hasn't got the demand and hence has kept being cut back.


Why do people think money grows on trees. If you are going to subsidise it from your own pocket, go for it but why should everyone else have the financial burden of propping up a line which has consistently had low passenger numbers?

 

[Old Yard Dog]

You are forgetting about Hooton which has far greater usage than the four stations you mention put together.

Hooton is in a semi-rural location on the edge of Ellesmere Port and is, in effect, the town's real rail head rather than Chester.

Little Sutton and Overpool have no parking while the unstaffed car park at Ellesmere Port station is perceived by many to be unsafe. Parking at Chester station is very expensive. So Ellesmere Port passengers flock in their cars to Hooton where there is a huge, cheap and very safe car park, frequent direct trains to Chester and Liverpool, and fares to Liverpool are much cheaper than fares from the other four stations.

Personally I will often drive to Hooton and park rather than walking half a mile to Little Sutton when I don't expect to be over the drink-driving limit on my return.

 

[Llandudno]

You are forgetting about Hooton which has far greater usage than the four stations you mention put together.

Hooton is in a semi-rural location on the edge of Ellesmere Port and is, in effect, the town's real rail head rather than Chester.

Little Sutton and Overpool have no parking while the unstaffed car park at Ellesmere Port station is perceived by many to be unsafe. Parking at Chester station is very expensive. So Ellesmere Port passengers flock in their cars to Hooton where there is a huge, cheap and very safe car park, frequent direct trains to Chester and Liverpool, and fares to Liverpool are much cheaper than fares from the other four stations.

Personally I will often drive to Hooton and park rather than walking half a mile to Little Sutton when I don't expect to be over the drink-driving limit on my return.

Indeed, Hooton is the park and ride railhead for much of southern Wirral, parts of Cheshire and North Wales Borderlands. The large cheap and secure car park, fantastic train service with cheap fares until getting on for midnight are major factors, plus new trains are on the way.

It is great that the Wrexham - Bidston is going to be increased to half hourly in the near future operated by refurbished 40 year old trains, but unless you live within walking distance of Heswall (isolated station, so not many) Neston or Shotton stations the likelihood is that you will still drive to Hooton if travelling to Liverpool to avoid changing to Merseyrail at Bidston

 

[markymark2000]

You are forgetting about Hooton which has far greater usage than the four stations you mention put together.

Hooton is in a semi-rural location on the edge of Ellesmere Port and is, in effect, the town's real rail head rather than Chester.

Little Sutton and Overpool have no parking while the unstaffed car park at Ellesmere Port station is perceived by many to be unsafe. Parking at Chester station is very expensive. So Ellesmere Port passengers flock in their cars to Hooton where there is a huge, cheap and very safe car park, frequent direct trains to Chester and Liverpool, and fares to Liverpool are much cheaper than fares from the other four stations.

Personally I will often drive to Hooton and park rather than walking half a mile to Little Sutton when I don't expect to be over the drink-driving limit on my return.

Indeed, Hooton is the park and ride railhead for much of southern Wirral, parts of Cheshire and North Wales Borderlands. The large cheap and secure car park, fantastic train service with cheap fares until getting on for midnight are major factors, plus new trains are on the way.

It is great that the Wrexham - Bidston is going to be increased to half hourly in the near future operated by refurbished 40 year old trains, but unless you live within walking distance of Heswall (isolated station, so not many) Neston or Shotton stations the likelihood is that you will still drive to Hooton if travelling to Liverpool to avoid changing to Merseyrail at Bidston

These reasons are exactly why I wasn't putting Hooton on the list. There are people from Chester who drive to Hooton to catch the train because of the parking. Hooton can not be counted as a good measure of Ellesmere Ports rail usage because of the amount of areas people come from to use the train service here.

 

[frodshamfella]

It has always surprised me that a connecting specially ‘branded’ bus every 30 minutes hasn’t been provided from Ellesmere Port station to Cheshire Oaks and the Blue Planet.

Whilst it may not be strictly commercial in that the actual fare box revenue may not cover operating costs you would think that the shopping centre and Blue Planet plus Merseyrail may chip in to support such a service, as through tickets from all across the Merseyrail network to Blue Planet and Cheshire Oaks could be offered, thereby attracting additional Merseyrail journeys, which for the most part would be against the peak flow of journeys made.

Would be a good idea and help with the car issues at Cheshire Oaks.
I find it rather depressing when its implied ' the place is a dump, it doesnt deserve any money spent on it ' . Leaving EPort as it is with no transport improvements helps no one.

 

[markymark2000]

Would be a good idea and help with the car issues at Cheshire Oaks.
I find it rather depressing when its implied ' the place is a dump, it doesnt deserve any money spent on it ' . Leaving EPort as it is with no transport improvements helps no one.

Cheshire Oaks owners have no will to introduce any public transport measures including making it easy for train station passengers to get to the station. They know that the facts are people using cars spend more money and they thrive off that.

I've never said don't spend money on the Port and it would be great to see improvements made there. Public transport though isn't the sort of thing Ellesmere Port residents use as much. Look at the demographics. Either elderly (who use buses because they're free) or council estate (who tend to use the buses because they are cheaper and if they have to go further out, they will have a car to do so). Those who are employed are normally on slightly higher paid jobs at Vauxhall, Capenhurst or Stanlow (for examples of companies) and so can afford to use a car and will tend not to sway to public transport purely on the basis of having a car.
That deals with people from the Port going outbound. Coming inbound, what is in Eport for people? Most other towns which were mentioned have universities or are touristy places with lots of visible history. The only visible history in Eport is the Port Arcades.
Even say for arguements sake people did use Eport train station for the local attractions like the Blue Planet, COaks and the Boat Museum, how are people getting to these places from the train station as the station has only 1 bus and that's to Rivacre. The boat museum hasn't had proper public transport links for a while (if ever?). The train station to the oaks has had a lot of buses over the past 10 years and none of them have ever been that busy hence why they have kept being cut.

Everyone wants enhancements to public transport but no one is willing to pay for it. Why should anyone subsidise empty trains. Ellesmere Port has failed to prove demand for many bus and train services in previous years, what has changed since the services were all cut back which now makes you think the line could have some usage?

 

[Old Yard Dog]

These reasons are exactly why I wasn't putting Hooton on the list. There are people from Chester who drive to Hooton to catch the train because of the parking. Hooton can not be counted as a good measure of Ellesmere Ports rail usage because of the amount of areas people come from to use the train service here.

The same argument can be made far more strongly about the number of people using Chester station, many of whom come by bus, taxi or get dropped off. Buses from Ellesmere Port now stop at Chester station in addition to those from Wrexham, Buckley and Mold.

While I don't doubt that there are people from Chester who drive to Hooton to commute to Liverpool, I doubt whether the numbers are huge relative to those driving from Ellesmere Port and Neston. While Chester (88k) is bigger than Ellesmere Port (61k), it isn't massively bigger.

 

[6Gman]

Cheshire Oaks owners have no will to introduce any public transport measures including making it easy for train station passengers to get to the station. They know that the facts are people using cars spend more money and they thrive off that.

On my one and only visit to Cheshire Oaks it poured with rain. It was notable that the bus stop was placed in a position to maximise how wet passengers got. Which I think indicated how much consideration the owners gave to those using public transport.

 

[frodshamfella]

Cheshire Oaks owners have no will to introduce any public transport measures including making it easy for train station passengers to get to the station. They know that the facts are people using cars spend more money and they thrive off that.

I've never said don't spend money on the Port and it would be great to see improvements made there. Public transport though isn't the sort of thing Ellesmere Port residents use as much. Look at the demographics. Either elderly (who use buses because they're free) or council estate (who tend to use the buses because they are cheaper and if they have to go further out, they will have a car to do so). Those who are employed are normally on slightly higher paid jobs at Vauxhall, Capenhurst or Stanlow (for examples of companies) and so can afford to use a car and will tend not to sway to public transport purely on the basis of having a car.
That deals with people from the Port going outbound. Coming inbound, what is in Eport for people? Most other towns which were mentioned have universities or are touristy places with lots of visible history. The only visible history in Eport is the Port Arcades.
Even say for arguements sake people did use Eport train station for the local attractions like the Blue Planet, COaks and the Boat Museum, how are people getting to these places from the train station as the station has only 1 bus and that's to Rivacre. The boat museum hasn't had proper public transport links for a while (if ever?). The train station to the oaks has had a lot of buses over the past 10 years and none of them have ever been that busy hence why they have kept being cut.

Everyone wants enhancements to public transport but no one is willing to pay for it. Why should anyone subsidise empty trains. Ellesmere Port has failed to prove demand for many bus and train services in previous years, what has changed since the services were all cut back which now makes you think the line could have some usage?

The trains ( what there are of them ) beyond Eport to Helsby are so infrequent hardly anyone would bother to try to use them. Northern should not be running the service at all it should be Merseyrail to Helsby, where there are onwards connections . You then offer employment opportunities in Runcorn Warrington and Manchester if you are prepared to travel that far. Not everyone drives and to get beyond the 30 min Eport - Liverpool service thats what you have to do. Giving Elton and Ince a useable service would also be a plus, everyone there must pretty much drive everywhere, which after all we should be moving away from given the opportunity.

 

[Bevan Price]

One problem with Ellesmere Port is partly due to the geography of the rail network. Apart from Liverpool, the next preferred out of town destination is probably Chester. Having to travel via and change at Hooton makes the journey slow and unappealing. Also Ellesmere Port station is poorly sited for the town centre and many of the residential areas. A direct bus service to/from Chester (unless going via Cheshire Oaks) is always likely to be the preferred mode for people who use public transport.

In the opposite direction, none of Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn or even Warrington have enough attractions to get large numbers of passengers - and Manchester is too far away to attract huge numbers of leisure/shopping travellers from Ellesmere Port. Nor will E.Port attract lots of incoming passengers for the (rather few) town centre shops. It is a pity that the Ellesmere Port to Helsby line cannot be routed to pass through Cheshire Oaks, but the Ince & Elton area seems to be growing slowly. I would suggest that the best option would be to find a way of extending (hourly) a Liverpool service from Ellesmere Port to Helsby.

 

[markymark2000]

The same argument can be made far more strongly about the number of people using Chester station, many of whom come by bus, taxi or get dropped off. Buses from Ellesmere Port now stop at Chester station in addition to those from Wrexham, Buckley and Mold.

While I don't doubt that there are people from Chester who drive to Hooton to commute to Liverpool, I doubt whether the numbers are huge relative to those driving from Ellesmere Port and Neston. While Chester (88k) is bigger than Ellesmere Port (61k), it isn't massively bigger.

Chester is a tourist city with the biggest Zoo in the world. Chester also has a University. Both of these generate high demand. As for services, you can access North Wales, South Wales, Birmingham, London and Manchester all with regular trains. Ellesmere Port has less potential for direct services due to the geography and for demand into the port, it is limited because the tourist attractions are not as major and they are harder to access by public transport so people are likely to drive instead.

The trains ( what there are of them ) beyond Eport to Helsby are so infrequent hardly anyone would bother to try to use them. Northern should not be running the service at all it should be Merseyrail to Helsby, where there are onwards connections . You then offer employment opportunities in Runcorn Warrington and Manchester if you are prepared to travel that far. Not everyone drives and to get beyond the 30 min Eport - Liverpool service thats what you have to do. Giving Elton and Ince a useable service would also be a plus, everyone there must pretty much drive everywhere, which after all we should be moving away from given the opportunity.

The trains were more frequent. IT has been mentioned that the services were two hourly but got cut back due to reduced usage. By all means, go and put more frequent trains on. You pay for it and we'll have it. The funds used to increase the services to Eport could be much better spent elsewhere increasing services or reopening lines. Money doesn't grow on trees and the line will need funding to keep it going and I don't see why taxpayers should be funding useless and what is and will be a little used line when there is a lot more lines which have a PROVEN business case for increases/reinstatement.

Helsby already has a train to Liverpool. Stanlow and Thornton will forever remain dead so the only areas which actually benefits is Elton. The residents here won't use the train because the concessionary passes can't be used. They will keep using the bus.
With this in mind, the only use for the service is those from Ellesmere Port to Helsby to connect with other trains to Runcorn and Manchester and that is me being realistic. You have no actual local demand demand and any demand is just having a service for people to connect (which the majority of people don't like changing trains, even less so when there are no lifts to help people over the bridge and there are no facilities.

I'm a big transport advocate but I think we need to be realistic and I don't believe people are. The areas struggle to hold local bus services and the train usage is quite poor so adding in more trains I don't believe will do anything and it will be at a huge cost.

 

[frodshamfella]

Chester is a tourist city with the biggest Zoo in the world. Chester also has a University. Both of these generate high demand. As for services, you can access North Wales, South Wales, Birmingham, London and Manchester all with regular trains. Ellesmere Port has less potential for direct services due to the geography and for demand into the port, it is limited because the tourist attractions are not as major and they are harder to access by public transport so people are likely to drive instead.


The trains were more frequent. IT has been mentioned that the services were two hourly but got cut back due to reduced usage. By all means, go and put more frequent trains on. You pay for it and we'll have it. The funds used to increase the services to Eport could be much better spent elsewhere increasing services or reopening lines. Money doesn't grow on trees and the line will need funding to keep it going and I don't see why taxpayers should be funding useless and what is and will be a little used line when there is a lot more lines which have a PROVEN business case for increases/reinstatement.

Helsby already has a train to Liverpool. Stanlow and Thornton will forever remain dead so the only areas which actually benefits is Elton. The residents here won't use the train because the concessionary passes can't be used. They will keep using the bus.
With this in mind, the only use for the service is those from Ellesmere Port to Helsby to connect with other trains to Runcorn and Manchester and that is me being realistic. You have no actual local demand demand and any demand is just having a service for people to connect (which the majority of people don't like changing trains, even less so when there are no lifts to help people over the bridge and there are no facilities.

I'm a big transport advocate but I think we need to be realistic and I don't believe people are. The areas struggle to hold local bus services and the train usage is quite poor so adding in more trains I don't believe will do anything and it will be at a huge cost.

To me it's just a waste not to take a train another 10-15 mins to a junction and provide Once and Elton with a useable service ( I'm sure it's not only pensioners that live there, looking at the new housing ) where you can connect that line up rather than leaving it as a dead end . We will just have to disagree..

 

[Ianno87]

To me it's just a waste not to take a train another 10-15 mins to a junction and provide Once and Elton with a useable service ( I'm sure it's not only pensioners that live there, looking at the new housing ) where you can connect that line up rather than leaving it as a dead end . We will just have to disagree..

As I've explained before, it's not just "a train" going another 10-15 mins. It means an entire extra trainset in circulation all day, every day, with a significant £££ cost associated with it, that needs to be paid for by somebody, somewhere, to the likely detriment of somewhere else.

 

[MarkyT]

As I've explained before, it's not just "a train" going another 10-15 mins. It means an entire extra trainset in circulation all day, every day, with a significant £££ cost associated with it, that needs to be paid for by somebody, somewhere, to the likely detriment of somewhere else.

I agree a Merseyrail extension to Helsby would be very unlikely to generate any significant additional new business from Elton or Helsby, nor encourage much new interchange traffic from elsewhere that isn't already adequately served by changing at Chester or Liverpool. Instead, I think it might be worth studying a 2km single track extension alongside the M53 to Cheshire Oaks that might better justify that extra set circulating all day. A terminal station next to the coach parking bays along Coliseum Way could serve inbound retail and entertainment business as well as outbound Liverpool commuting from housing on the south side of town, and provide easier access from the wider Wirral area to the many hundreds of jobs in the area. An intermediate station at Lees Lane could serve redevelopment and existing housing nearby. Being at a major node on the regional road network, The Cheshire Oaks station could also provide a useful transfer point for drop off, pick up and parkway business on the shiny new trains, and that could benefit the nearby retail businesses.

 

[8H]

However what you suggest may well stimulate rail demand from the east eg Warrington Frodsham Helsby and further afield as a consequence. Shame all the parties weren’t leaned on to provide rail access as part of the original arrangements allowing consent & construction on the site.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

The same argument can be made far more strongly about the number of people using Chester station, many of whom come by bus, taxi or get dropped off. Buses from Ellesmere Port now stop at Chester station in addition to those from Wrexham, Buckley and Mold.

While I don't doubt that there are people from Chester who drive to Hooton to commute to Liverpool, I doubt whether the numbers are huge relative to those driving from Ellesmere Port and Neston. While Chester (88k) is bigger than Ellesmere Port (61k), it isn't massively bigger.

Chester is a tourist city with the biggest Zoo in the world. Chester also has a University. Both of these generate high demand. As for services, you can access North Wales, South Wales, Birmingham, London and Manchester all with regular trains. Ellesmere Port has less potential for direct services due to the geography and for demand into the port, it is limited because the tourist attractions are not as major and they are harder to access by public transport so people are likely to drive instead.

Mark - I'm sorry but I think you are taking my comments out of context.

When comparing the relative populations of Chester and Ellesmere Port, I was simply speculating on the numbers of people who travel OUT of these two cities/towns to park at Hooton and catch a train.

Chester is of a wonderful tourist city and regional centre and, of course, far more people travel INTO Chester than Ellesmere Port.