The future of Heathrow Express Post Crossrail

[Bletchleyite]

Don't the Oxford fasts already call at Slough?

They do indeed.

 

[Kite159]

They do indeed.

And quite busy at times with tourists connecting into the Windsor trains.

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Regarding HEX, in my eyes keep the paths but remove any premium to the service, so it costs the same as using TfL Rail and the metro spec cattle trucks

 

[VauxhallandI]

My tuppence.

I live in Cheshunt and work at Bank. Form either starting point I will be using Crossrail to get to LHR.

Previously I used HeX and I have to say the number of times I’ve paid the max price is very little.

Advance fares are decent value and I often travelled weekend Business Premier.

 

[EllieAquitrain]

I have a vague memory that, the only time I ever used Heathrow Express (we live near the Piccadilly in North London so would usually just sit on that for 90 mins), we did it because u16s went free, so it was pretty cheap for 1 adult with 2 kids. Is this still the case?

 

[Aictos]

And quite busy at times with tourists connecting into the Windsor trains.

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Regarding HEX, in my eyes keep the paths but remove any premium to the service, so it costs the same as using TfL Rail and the metro spec cattle trucks

I disagree quite strongly, it's a premium service so should keep it as it is.

If you remove the premium ticketing then you might as well cancel the whole operation.

The Gatwick Express however I don't see as a Premium service as that could be easily absorbed and operate as a regular Southern service.

As to Elizabeth line trains being "cattle trucks" may I point out that 1. It is a Metro service, 2. Majority of passengers are only on the train for short periods of time and 3. The train design is done to move the maximum number of people at any one time - all 3 points you seem to have ignored.

 

[Kite159]

I disagree quite strongly, it's a premium service so should keep it as it is.

If you remove the premium ticketing then you might as well cancel the whole operation.

The Gatwick Express however I don't see as a Premium service as that could be easily absorbed and operate as a regular Southern service.

As to Elizabeth line trains being "cattle trucks" may I point out that 1. It is a Metro service, 2. Majority of passengers are only on the train for short periods of time and 3. The train design is done to move the maximum number of people at any one time - all 3 points you seem to have ignored.

Cancel HEX and some of those business users which use it (and claim back the cost on expenses) will use taxis, rather than crowding around Paddington low level for a Heathrow bound cattle-truck to roll in, only having a short period in which to board a train which will be busy with other passengers for the likes of Hanwell & Hayes, and hence having to stand, keeping a watchful eye on any luggage.

 

[Ianno87]

Cancel HEX and some of those business users which use it (and claim back the cost on expenses) will use taxis, rather than crowding around Paddington low level for a Heathrow bound cattle-truck to roll in, only having a short period in which to board a train which will be busy with other passengers for the likes of Hanwell & Hayes, and hence having to stand, keeping a watchful eye on any luggage.

In the current climate, there's no way that the railway should be turning away passengers who are prepared to pay premium fares.

 

[Aictos]

In the current climate, there's no way that the railway should be turning away passengers who are prepared to pay premium fares.

My point exactly which I raised in a post a few posts ago plus the OP doesn't seem to realise that we should be pushing towards more rail travel not less and encouraging those willing to pay the premium to go via taxi instead would permanently lose their custom with the railway.

Cancelling HEX is not the answer unlike the Gatwick Express operation which is over overserved by Southern and Thameslink services to the extend that closing that operation down wouldn't be a bad idea as there's plenty of alternatives plus the Thameslink and Southern services actually offer people the choice of destinations as not everyone wants or needs to go to London Victoria.

The other thing that the OP seems to continuous forget is Heathrow is considered as a premium airport by the airlines hence why the "slots" are very valuable to any airline and so have a preference to serve Heathrow then any other airport in the UK so why can't the airport offer a premium train service?

 

[D365]

In the current climate, there's no way that the railway should be turning away passengers who are prepared to pay premium fares.

I don’t see how HEx premium fares contribute to the wider railway sector.

 

[Ianno87]

I don’t see how HEx premium fares contribute to the wider railway sector.

Passengers pay money to HEx.
HEx buy train paths from Network Rail.

 

[43096]

Passengers pay money to HEx.
HEx buy train paths from Network Rail.

HEx trains use paths and cause congestion, so Network Rail has to pay GWR compensation.

 

[Ianno87]

HEx trains use paths and cause congestion, so Network Rail has to pay GWR compensation.

HEx paths don't "cause congestion" any more than GWR do.

If anything, a 15 minute, 9 mile shuttle service with generous turnround times and fleet provision is not going to be the dominant source of performance issues

 

[43096]

HEx paths don't "cause congestion" any more than GWR do.

If anything, a 15 minute, 9 mile shuttle service with generous turnround times and fleet provision is not going to be the dominant source of performance issues

It's simple: the more trains you run, the more congestion you get. If HEx wasn't there, Great Western punctuality would improve.

 

[Ianno87]

It's simple: the more trains you run, the more congestion you get. If HEx wasn't there, Great Western punctuality would improve.

But revenue would drop.

 

[43096]

But revenue would drop.

Which is really neither here nor there in the overall scheme of railway finances.

 

[Ianno87]

Which is really neither here nor there in the overall scheme of railway finances.

Compared to the size of its operation it is very lucrative indeed.

 

[43096]

Compared to the size of its operation it is very lucrative indeed.

If there's few people using it in future then there comes a point where it doesn't actually matter if Heathrow want to subsidise it, more people would benefit by killing it off.

 

[Tom m]

Anyone considered that they are looking at the much longer term? When the western access to Heathrow eventually gets built, I suspect HEX will be modified to something like Paddington - Heathrow - Reading, poss even further west.

I would imagine it is easier to keep the operation ticking over for a few years rather than shutdown and startup again once the Western access eventually gets built.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Or you can get HEx to Paddington and change, it'll be quicker and you'll get a much nicer travel environment with luggage racks.

So you expect someone to get a HEx to Paddington, to get a same train they could have got from Heathrow? Nonsense. HEx is dead. Good thing Crossrail will disgorge most of its Heathrow passengers (stacks of them) in such a way as to make capacity for the people going to Abbey Wood and Shenfield.

I have a business requiring international travel and not only because it’s cheaper, but because it’s a one-journey job with no change, I’d go on XR from Heathrow to Abbey Wood and then take surface transport or taxi. No Paddington, tube, train for me...

 

[Clarence Yard]

Heathrow Express is a very “political” operation. It is part of the justification for the charges on the airlines at Heathrow - it has legally preferential terms that other TOCs don’t have and it’s existence adds a continual bargaining chip into any wider airport discussions between HAL and Central Government.

HAL obviously want to make as much money as it can from the operation. It’s a premium service which would cost a fortune for any Government to buy out, irrespective of what Crossrail does or doesn’t do to it’s loadings.

 

[kevin_roche]

Anyone considered that they are looking at the much longer term? When the western access to Heathrow eventually gets built, I suspect HEX will be modified to something like Paddington - Heathrow - Reading, poss even further west.

I would imagine it is easier to keep the operation ticking over for a few years rather than shutdown and startup again once the Western access eventually gets built.

Heathrow Southern railway would like those paths for Basingstoke and Guildford services to Paddington via heathrow so that's another reason for GWR to hang on to them to keep someone else from claiming them in the event that southern access ever gets built.

 

[MarkyT]

Heathrow Southern railway would like those paths for Basingstoke and Guildford services to Paddington via heathrow so that's another reason for GWR to hang on to them to keep someone else from claiming them in the event that southern access ever gets built.

I agree. If HSR ever materialises, I think that route would be far better for the express paths, as the traffic sources in LSWR land could plausibly provide significant new traffic THROUGH Heathrow to Old Oak Common (for HS2, Elizabeth and TfL orbital connections) and Paddington in a competitive time, growing the market and relieving Waterloo, whereas HEX trains from Reading could never compete with services going direct to Paddington along the GWML, so would likely always empty and refill at the airport. HEX trainsets will also probably be too big for the Reading - Heathrow segment, which would be much better organised to be more local in character, terminating from the west at Heathrow somewhere (most likely T5) and being combined with various Thames Valley local services to the west of Reading, hence reducing the number of turnbacks at Reading and providing more cross-Reading convenience. Elizabeth Line Airport trains would best alternate between T4 and an extra terminal platform at Staines via T5 and HSR connections.

 

[Aictos]

It's simple: the more trains you run, the more congestion you get. If HEx wasn't there, Great Western punctuality would improve.

Could also reduce the number of GWR services too but nobody is suggesting that, what is needed is a balance of services serving all destinations.

The current TT is just fine as it is.

It's a premium service like other airports around the world have so why can't Heathrow offer the same? It's not like Gatwick that has congested the Brighton Mainline with numerous Southern, Thameslink and the hourly GWR which would see punctuality across the whole length of the Brighton Mainline plus the London area improved by getting rid of the now surplus Gatwick Express and using the stock for a internal cascade to scrap the 455s and 313s from Southern.

Scrap the Heathrow Express and punctuality only improves if at all only between Airport Junction and Paddington while scrapping the Gatwick Express would improve punctuality between Brighton and London Bridge/Victoria which would help make the Thameslinks more reliable which impact on more TOCs directly.

So you expect someone to get a HEx to Paddington, to get a same train they could have got from Heathrow? Nonsense. HEx is dead. Good thing Crossrail will disgorge most of its Heathrow passengers (stacks of them) in such a way as to make capacity for the people going to Abbey Wood and Shenfield.

I have a business requiring international travel and not only because it’s cheaper, but because it’s a one-journey job with no change, I’d go on XR from Heathrow to Abbey Wood and then take surface transport or taxi. No Paddington, tube, train for me...

But it isn't dead unlike a certain other airport service which is better served by the existing three TOCs that offer more destinations then London Victoria.

 

[JonathanH]

hence reducing the number of turnbacks at Reading

That sounds like a solution looking for a problem given the availability of platforms 1 and 2 for Newbury / Basingstoke locals and the fact that the only other services turning back from the west at Reading are local services that go into the depot.

 

[cle]

The Southern/Western plans work in terms of the current paths guaranteeing the Slough calls, but it would still be a very delicate balancing act (i.e. dwell management) to ensure rejoining at the right point after Iver or so. That would be a highly volatile operation - even onto the Reliefs as I think is planned.

It would be safer to remove them from the GWML, i.e. to Staines and to Woking.

The Basingstoke/onward services I think would be better served as direct fasts from Paddington - the PIXC / general capacity busters mentioned a while back for Reading, but extended. May not be quicker than a non-stop to Waterloo in itself (42m), but the Crossrail connection (both for LHR and West End/City/Docklands) will be appealing, and likely 38-40 mins from Basingstoke.

It would give Reading Green Park a London service too, if there was demand for that. If not, then make it fast. I could see the folks of Winchester and Southampton being interested too. AC/DC to consider of course.

 

[MarkyT]

That sounds like a solution looking for a problem given the availability of platforms 1 and 2 for Newbury / Basingstoke locals and the fact that the only other services turning back from the west at Reading are local services that go into the depot.

I'm suggesting attempting to avoid yet more turnbacks from the east. With up to four Lizzie's already, a notional extra four Heathrow's could plausibly use up another platform in its entirety. Little point in going to Basingstoke via Reading if half of the HEXs go there via Woking, but Newbury and Oxford locals could be candidates once completed electrification to Oxford allows a recast. As to the west bays, if it was possible to remove these, #3 might be lengthened to take longer XC trains - looks like 2×5 might fit with some junction work. Drifting off thread for this discussion though.