TfL ticket machines and offices going cashless

[Bletchleyite]

There is a huge difference between mostly unused and unused.

Based on an unscientific study (we really need the statistics on TfL cash use, which shouldn't be that hard to come by but I haven't managed based on a quick search!), I'd estimate about 20 people an hour are currently making cash top-ups (or other cash transactions) at my mid-sized local station.

OK, fair point.

But I wouldn't say it's about who is making a cash transaction, it's about who has to make a cash transaction. Many will do it that way because they always have done even though they have a suitable payment card.

To use another example, I would be unsurprised if those using cash at Northern's unstaffed stations (via a Promise to Pay ticket) is now limited to:
1. Children (though there are alternatives like GoHenry cards etc) - and Oyster Zip provides for them in London
2. People who do not have a suitable payment card
3. Fare dodgers hoping that the fare will not be collected
4. People who are stubborn about it and want to protect cash acceptance

Those who would casually just use cash but aren't one of those 4 will, on being presented with a TVM that doesn't take cash, probably just take the path of least resistance which is to pay by card. Whereas if the TVM takes cash, some will just default to it because that's what they always did.

...I'm not sure that moving cash acceptance to visitors centres would save all that much, since it reduces (and not by 100%) the acceptance costs, but doesn't alter the secure collection and banking costs.

It would probably not save all that much to move cash from Euston booking office to Euston visitor centre (if there was one), no. Indeed, as you'd need to open one (it closed due to station work and wasn't replaced) it would cost more. The benefit of it would be simplicity, rather than needing to work out which stations took cash you'd know that all the visitor centres did.

What would really save (a lot of) money, though, would be reducing the number of stations that accept cash from 270 to about 10 (i.e. Heathrow plus the main London termini). And TBH they'd probably get away with it only being one TVM in each.

 

[deecee16]

Are TfL still not using thermal printing? Crikey, they're a bit behind.

The main cost of cash is collecting and banking it, in any case. COVID is an excuse to do something they wanted to do anyway.

Probably think it's not worth converting since they want everyone to use Oyster or bank card.

 

[Wolfie]

I suspect the future steps will include doing away with Oyster, ticket machines, and then tickets, with all their associated expense; everyone to be expected to use Contactless, charged by back office processing.

How exactly do you do period travelcards on contactless?

That used to be possible, but the sale of prepaid debit cards has been heavily regulated in recent years. You’ll notice all prepaid debit cards have vanished from the gift card aisles of supermarkets in recent years. Either that gets reversed, or the product is restricted to public transport only. Like, say, an Oyster card

Anti-money laundering....

Ah, I stand corrected. Would probably expect those to be proposed for closure soon enough; there's no reason LO should have them if LU doesn't.

LO is part of National Rail. Some folk want to buy tickets for journeys further afield than TfL serves. Are you content, extending your logic a tad, for ALL ticket offices to close? There's no reason for other National Rail TOCs to have them if LO doesn't....

 

[Wallsendmag]

How exactly do you do period travelcards on contactless?


Anti-money laundering....


LO is part of National Rail. Some folk want to buy tickets for journeys further afield than TfL serves. Are you content, extending your logic a tad, for ALL ticket offices to close? There's no reason for other National Rail TOCs to have them if LO doesn't....

Have you not heard of Account based Ticketing. You only need a token to connect the user to their account this could be a payment card , a wristband or anythng. All the processing is done in the back end system.

 

[Haywain]

How exactly do you do period travelcards on contactless?

By putting a cap on the amount charged/paid over a set period of time. I was under the impression that TfL already do this, at least over 7-day periods. There is really no reason it can’t be done over a month or even a year - just without a Gold Card if you don’t pay up front.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I was under the impression that TfL already do this, at least over 7-day periods.

Isn't it limited to a fixed Monday-Sunday 7-day period? So it's suited for people who have a regular travel pattern but if, say, you were in London from Thursday to Tuesday and doing a lot of traveling, whereby a 7-day Travelcard season would be the best option, using contactless might charge you more because your travel is split into separate Thurs-Sun and Mon-Tues periods for capping purposes. But I could be wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

LO is part of National Rail. Some folk want to buy tickets for journeys further afield than TfL serves.

I bet only a tiny, tiny number of people know that it is, most will just use contactless or Oyster to the relevant London terminus.

Out of that tiny, tiny number, an even tinier number will purchase a through ticket to another NR destination by cash at the ticket window rather than online, on their phone or on a TVM.

Because it is a tiny, tiny number (probably a smaller number of people than travel from a typical Northern rural halt) who do this, an all-destinations TVM would be quite adequate, no need for a staffed ticket office. (If the TVMs aren't presently all-destination, that's not exactly hard to add, it's just software).

Are you content, extending your logic a tad, for ALL ticket offices to close? There's no reason for other National Rail TOCs to have them if LO doesn't....

The role of the small-station ticket office is certainly in doubt, and I would say that retaining them on Merseyrail (which is very similar to LO in concept) is rather a waste of money, particularly once Merseyside gets a contactless/Oyster PAYG style scheme (which it will), and I still predict that on that network the retention of guards will be paid for by the progressive closure of ticket offices other than probably at the Liverpool city centre stations other than Lime St (as there's one upstairs) and the stations at the end of each line.

So yes, I think we will see a considerable reduction in ticket office provision as alternatives become more heavily used throughout the country, and I don't see that as a massive problem provided the staff situation is handled properly (the best way probably being simply to stop recruiting to the role and just close them slowly as staff retire or leave, moving those existing staff round so the most-used ones go last).

 

[Haywain]

Isn't it limited to a fixed Monday-Sunday 7-day period? So it's suited for people who have a regular travel pattern but if, say, you were in London from Thursday to Tuesday and doing a lot of traveling, whereby a 7-day Travelcard season would be the best option, using contactless might charge you more because your travel is split into separate Thurs-Sun and Mon-Tues periods for capping purposes. But I could be wrong.

This does demonstrate that it is possible even if not presently done in practice.

 

[chris_in_salop]

Presumably the cost savings made by not handling cash will be passed on to customers with reductions in the price of fares. Isn't that how a free market works?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably the cost savings made by not handling cash will be passed on to customers shareholders with reductions in the price of fares increased profits. Isn't that how a free market works?

Fixed that for you - even though I'm not strongly opposed to the idea!

(For TfL, the shareholders still exist - the London Boroughs etc)

 

[Haywain]

Presumably the cost savings made by not handling cash will be passed on to customers with reductions in the price of fares. Isn't that how a free market works?

That could be how things would work in a profit making enterprise (although Bletchleyite is more accurate) but in a loss making enterprise it is more likely to be used to maintain the balance between rising subsidy and rising fares.

 

[Taunton]

That could be how things would work in a profit making enterprise (although Bletchleyite is more accurate) but in a loss making enterprise it is more likely to be used to maintain the balance between rising subsidy and rising fares.

Or, being TfL, it could be poured down the drain on bike facilities that nobody seems to use, or the highest salaries-plus-bonus in the public service world for Crossrail top execs, who then obfuscate or outright lie about progress.

 

[Wolfie]

Or, being TfL, it could be poured down the drain on bike facilities that nobody seems to use, or the highest salaries-plus-bonus in the public service world for Crossrail top execs, who then obfuscate or outright lie about progress.

There is talk of TfL doing away with the bikes. They certainly were used, at least until several competitors appeared on the scene.

Many of said Crossrail execs were appointed by the former mayor... What's he up to now???

 

[Haywain]

There is talk of TfL doing away with the bikes. They certainly were used, at least until several competitors appeared on the scene.

I think on bikes he might be propagating the myth that the cycling network isn’t used.

 

[LonTravelWatch]

Please see the update at the top of the tread.

 

[mikeg]

Though I'm not a huge fan of cash, I find it reassuring that a watchdog has taken action by listening to affected customers. I'm a firm believer that cash is on its way out, however public transport should be among one of the last, not first things to go this way.

 

[Mojo]

Please see the update at the top of the tread.

Would you mind please adding your update as a reply rather than making people go to the first post?

 

[infobleep]

Hi everyone,

We'd like to make you aware, if you weren't already, that Transport for London are proposing to stop accepting cash at all London Underground, London Overground and DLR stations in the new year.

During the pandemic, many of London’s Underground station ticket machines have stopped taking cash payments for Oyster top up or to buy paper tickets in order to reduce the possible transmission of Coronavirus. TfL are now proposing to stop taking cash across all Underground, DLR and London Overground station ticket offices and machines.

To travel, passengers will need to have a contactless bank card or have topped up their Oyster card via a bank account online, or top up with cash or card at a retail Oyster ticket outlet. This means they will no longer be able to top up using cash at the station. We want to know how this will affect you or people you know, who may rely on cash top-ups.

If you do have some thoughts about this we'd love to hear from you. We've put together a very short survey to see how many people are affected by this change and what it would mean for them.

You can fill out the survey by clicking on the link here. And if you have family or friends that might be interested in having a say on this please feel free to share it with them.

Many thanks,

The London TravelWatch Team


Update 21.01.21

Hi everyone,

As you may have seen in the news, Transport for London has decided to drop its plans to stop taking cash across all London Underground, DLR and London Overground station ticket offices and machines!

TfL’s decision follows our research which showed the big impact withdrawing cash would have on passengers, especially those on low incomes, children or the 260,000 adults in London without a bank account. Some stations don’t have a Ticket Stop, usually a newsagent or convenience store, nearby, which would have made it harder to top up an Oyster card with cash.

A big thank you to those of you who told us about the impact that this would have on you or those you know.

TfL haven’t yet said when they will reinstate cash at over 200 Underground, DLR and Overground stations where they withdrew it early in the pandemic. We’re urging them to bring back cash at these stations as soon as possible and will keep you updated on our progress.

Thanks again for all your help and if you are having to travel at the moment do take care of yourselves.

Best wishes,

Luke
London TravelWatch

Is their a list of the 200 stations where cash option was removed? Some national rail stations don't accept cash.

Anyway it's a sensible decision.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is their a list of the 200 stations where cash option was removed? Some national rail stations don't accept cash.

All of them do, because unlike with TfL if you wish to pay cash and have the cash, but the TVM doesn't take cash, you are entitled to board as if the TVM was not there (subject to oddities like Northern's Promise to Pay).

 

[Haywain]

All of them do, because unlike with TfL if you wish to pay cash and have the cash, but the TVM doesn't take cash, you are entitled to board as if the TVM was not there (subject to oddities like Northern's Promise to Pay).

Not all of them. Only the staffed ones and the few unstaffed stations with cash TVMs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not all of them. Only the staffed ones and the few unstaffed stations with cash TVMs.

I don't think you actually read what I said (and you quoted). If the station has no cash acceptance, you have the absolute right to board the train and pay in cash at the first opportunity. That is not the case for the Underground; you can't pass the gates without a ticket or validated card, full stop, end of. Therefore, de-facto, all NR stations accept cash, because it is always possible to travel walk-up paying in cash, regardless of what facility may or may not exist at the station.

 

[Watershed]

I don't think you actually read what I said (and you quoted). If the station has no cash acceptance, you have the absolute right to board the train and pay in cash at the first opportunity. That is not the case for the Underground; you can't pass the gates without a ticket or validated card, full stop, end of. Therefore, de-facto, all NR stations accept cash, because it is always possible to travel walk-up paying in cash, regardless of what facility may or may not exist at the station.

LO is of course NR, and some of their managed stations have stopped accepting cash. Most such stations are barriered. I don't think you are getting through those barriers by waving cash at the barrier staff. The same goes for certain stations managed by LU, but which have NR services.

This insidious policy hardly helps to justify the currently gargantuan subsidies to the public transport industry. Some of the least well off people in society are effectively being excluded from their lifeline.

Unfortunately the cash-holding prospective passenger is unlikely to have any recourse if they are refused travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some London Overground stations have stopped accepting cash. Most such stations are barriered. I don't think you are getting through those barriers by waving cash at the barrier staff. The same goes for certain stations managed by LU, but which have National Rail services.

I did wonder if LO was an exception, as it like Merseyrail seems to really want not to be part of NR.

You certainly would be allowed through the barrier at a LNR station if you showed you wanted to pay cash and the TVM didn't accept it. Back in the day of course the barrier staff would have a SPORTIS and sell you a ticket, but these days they are often just cheap security guards in railway uniform who are just a deterrent and not a proper member of revenue staff.

 

[py_megapixel]

I did wonder if LO was an exception, as it like Merseyrail seems to really want not to be part of NR.

You certainly would be allowed through the barrier at a LNR station if you showed you wanted to pay cash and the TVM didn't accept it. Back in the day of course the barrier staff would have a SPORTIS and sell you a ticket, but these days they are often just cheap security guards in railway uniform who are just a deterrent and not a proper member of revenue staff.

Avanti gateline staff (probably only the direct Avanti employees) have a system of an Android tablet which is Bluetooth-paired to a thermal printer and a card reader. It works rather well, though the system does seem to be a little slow at times.

Typically that's used by people exiting the station however - often they've arrived from an unstaffed station and were unable to buy a ticket due a Northern TVM behaving like... well.... a Northern TVM

 

[Haywain]

I don't think you actually read what I said (and you quoted). If the station has no cash acceptance, you have the absolute right to board the train and pay in cash at the first opportunity. That is not the case for the Underground; you can't pass the gates without a ticket or validated card, full stop, end of. Therefore, de-facto, all NR stations accept cash, because it is always possible to travel walk-up paying in cash, regardless of what facility may or may not exist at the station.

In which case you’ve worded that badly. A station with no ticket selling facilities is not accepting payment by any means, even if they are acceptable when a payment opportunity becomes available. Therefore it isn’t correct to say that every station accepts cash but it is correct to say that cash is an acceptable payment method from every station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In which case you’ve worded that badly. A station with no ticket selling facilities is not accepting payment by any means, even if they are acceptable when a payment opportunity becomes available. Therefore it isn’t correct to say that every station accepts cash but it is correct to say that cash is an acceptable payment method from every station.

From a passenger's point of view the difference is not relevant - what matters is that they can arrive at that station with cash and travel without any additional restriction over a card payer. "The railway accepts cash for immediate travel from that station" is the only thing of consequence. Similarly, there would not be a problem if TfL let you through the barrier without paying if you stated you wished to pay cash. All that matters is that you can pay cash with no disadvantage, which you can, give or take LO, at every single National Rail station, from Altnabreac to Euston. But if this had gone ahead, it would not have been true of much of the Tube.

 

[matt_world2004]

Some LO stations on the DC lines and on the east London line are subject to London underground ticket selling rules. This was an anomaly from privatisation days iirc.

 

[infobleep]

All of them do, because unlike with TfL if you wish to pay cash and have the cash, but the TVM doesn't take cash, you are entitled to board as if the TVM was not there (subject to oddities like Northern's Promise to Pay).

Whilst that is the case, my point was purely about the stations themselves.

 

[Dstock7080]

Is their a list of the 200 stations where cash option was removed? Some national rail stations don't accept cash.

only these stations retain cash acceptance on POMs Passenger Operated Machines.

 

[PG]

only these stations retain cash acceptance on POMs:

POMs?