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What to do with LNWR London-Birmingham services post-HS2

What would you do with LNWR services from Euston to Birmingham?

  • Keep combined with the Liverpool service as cutrent

    Votes: 13 33.3%
  • Combine with a semi-fast Birmingham - Manchester service

    Votes: 4 10.3%
  • Combine with the Birmingham - Crewe via Alsager

    Votes: 5 12.8%
  • Combine with the Birmingham - Wolverhampton stopper

    Votes: 3 7.7%
  • Combine with Birmingham - Rugeley via Walsall

    Votes: 2 5.1%
  • Terminate at Birmingham

    Votes: 11 28.2%
  • Other (please specify)

    Votes: 6 15.4%
  • I don’t know!!!

    Votes: 7 17.9%

  • Total voters
    39
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PTR 444

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Post-HS2, I am envisaging that there will be 2tph Avanti (or successor) between London and Birmingham, and 4tph LNWR (or successor). The Avanti services I expect will extend to Wolverhampton with 1tph continuing to Shrewsbury and the other to a destination in the North West. The LNWR services on the other hand I am a bit stuck as to where they should go. Currently, they are combined with the Birmingham - Liverpool service and I can see some merit in keeping more through trains between Coventry and Wolverhampton, but this will reduce reliability of the service. Alternatively, they could take over the stopping service to Wolverhampton or Rugeley, but this depends on capacity as there are currently 10-11tph on the Birmingham loop and due to local demand I can’t see this changing even once HS2 opens.

The poll options are not mutually exclusive, therefore you could decide to keep 1tph running to Liverpool while terminating all the other services at Birmingham.
 
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The Planner

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History has taught us fairly well that extending them out tends to not work very well..
 

JonathanH

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I'd chop it at Northampton and run separate services either side of there. South of Northampton, overlap the London to Tring, Milton Keynes and Northampton services so they connect into each other on a 2tph basis.

There is no need for through running across Northampton with two Avanti services each hour from Milton Keynes to Birmingham calling at Rugby, Coventry and Birmingham International.

Indeed, arguably the Avanti service from London to Birmingham could be combined with a semi-fast service from Birmingham to Manchester (although this would perhaps be unreliable and perhaps is an idea best avoided).

As discussed in previous threads, I would also remove any LNR only or via Northampton fares to Birmingham to focus passengers from London on HS2.

As for Northampton to Birmingham, this should be a self-contained shuttle. The whole point is that by not running through trains with multiple timetabling constraints there should be greater reliability.

Matching up the Birmingham to Wolverhampton stopper with the services east of Birmingham means that they would possibly need to be 'looped' at New Street which damages reliability.
 

Bletchleyite

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Terminate at Birmingham and keep self-contained, i.e. crews and units only work London-Birmingham services and not other routes on any given day. It was long proven that this pattern could be operated punctually.

No need to split at NMP because you can always tidy things up there because you've got units and crews on hand.
 

tbtc

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Split at Northampton.

Given that HS2 allows the "Avanti" services to pick up additional stops (e.g. all Euston - New Street services could stop at Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry and International), there'd be no significant "cross-Northampton" flow for the "LNW" services to cater for. No more bargain basement fares for people happy to take the slow/scenic route via Northampton.

If the only services at Northampton at the Euston - Northampton one and the Northampton - New Street (Wolverhampton? Walsall?) service then there'd be plenty of space to terminate at Northampton, whereas the capacity to terminate at New Street is a bit... limited.

Plus, running the Northampton - New Street services through to somewhere in the West Midlands (not as far as Liverpool/ Manchester - maybe Rugeley would be okay), you could provide a cross-Birmingham link to International that might be of some genuine use to some - compared to terminating more trains at New Street.
 

Bletchleyite

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Given that HS2 allows the "Avanti" services to pick up additional stops (e.g. all Euston - New Street services could stop at Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry and International), there'd be no significant "cross-Northampton" flow for the "LNW" services to cater for.

This isn't true. There are plenty of intermediates that won't be served by the Avanti services even with stops at Watford, MKC and Rugby added to all of them, such as Bletchley, Leighton etc, and we appreciate through services to Brum that are demonstrably operable reliably and don't have a significant operational disadvantage. So why take them away just out of principle?

If you want to reduce usage, just bin the cheap fares. I'd still use them at the "full" walk-up fare and many others would too. And you might even find, in HS2 phase 2B, that some people will even use them to connect with that for journeys north.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Plus, running the Northampton - New Street services through to somewhere in the West Midlands (not as far as Liverpool/ Manchester - maybe Rugeley would be okay), you could provide a cross-Birmingham link to International that might be of some genuine use to some - compared to terminating more trains at New Street.

We know what happened last time that was done, and the problem was not Euston, it was New St and bad diagrams. Again, no.
 

JonathanH

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This isn't true. There are plenty of intermediates that won't be served by the Avanti services even with stops at Watford, MKC and Rugby added to all of them, such as Bletchley, Leighton etc, and we appreciate through services to Brum that are demonstrably operable reliably and don't have a significant operational disadvantage. So why take them away just out of principle?
So what? There are plenty of other cases where there are suggestions of removing through trains for reliability and the greater good - eg suggestions of cutting through trains from Cumbria to Manchester at Preston or Lancaster, TPE not going to Manchester Airport. All that is being suggested by cutting at Northampton is that either people from Bletchley or Leighton Buzzard change at Milton Keynes if they want to go to Birmingham and get a faster journey as a result. The timing of the connection can even be optimised.

Northampton is a great place to split up trains because there is a dedicated bay platform 4 for services Birmingham and three platforms for terminating trains from London, especially if there is a proper clockface 2tph service from London, probably Watford, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley Milton Keynes, Wolverton and Northampton and not the current mix of times.

You would run a clockface 2tph, with connections optimised:
London Euston - Wembley Central - Harrow & Wealdstone - Bushey - Watford Junction - Kings Langley - Apsley - Hemel Hempstead - Berkhamsted - Tring
London Euston - Watford Junction - Hemel Hempsteqd - Berkhamsted - Tring - Cheddington - Leighton Buzzard - Bletchley - Milton Keynes
London Euston - Watford Junction - Leighton Buzzard - Bletchley - Milton Keynes - Wolverton - Northampton
London Euston - Watford Junction - Milton Keynes - Rugby - Coventry - Birmingham International - Birmingham New Street

and a separate service, totally unconnected, from Northampton to Birmingham with self-contained crews and diagrams.
 

Bletchleyite

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So what? There are plenty of other cases where there are suggestions of removing through trains for reliability and the greater good - eg suggestions of cutting through trains from Cumbria to Manchester at Preston or Lancaster, TPE not going to Manchester Airport.

I agree. But in this specific case there isn't a greater good - the 3tph Euston-Birmingham service pattern (or the later 2tph one with the third lopped at NMP) was both punctual and reliable (after a bit of a messy start)*, and if it wasn't could be improved by a wait at Northampton rather than splitting it up. A second "Cross City" out to NMP would be at the expense of punctuality - the existing one isn't great - and so the connections would be poor, too.

There is that it would remove terminating services from New St, but remember that HS2 will remove two of those anyway.

I'd not be opposed to a second Cross-City to Coventry only, though. Perhaps you could do, say, 2tph Wolves or Rugeley to Cov (or something) and 2tph New St-Euston semifast, giving 4tph to the local stations to Cov, Merseyrail style?

* Which had less to do with through services and more to do with moving of control functions from Bletchley to Birmingham, and the latter's poor understanding of the south WCML. Once they learnt a bit about it, it became pretty good again after a few months.
 
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tbtc

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there'd be no significant "cross-Northampton" flow for the "LNW" services to cater for

This isn't true. There are plenty of intermediates that won't be served by the Avanti services even with stops at Watford, MKC and Rugby added to all of them, such as Bletchley, Leighton etc

Well, here's the thing... there are plenty of intermediate stations but I don't think that places like Bletchley and Leighton Buzzard are particularly "significant" in the context of a discussion about Birmingham - what demand there is will generally be to Milton Keynes/ London rather than to Birmingham - there'll be regular connections at Milton Keynes for the few people who do do journeys like Bletchley to Birmingham (that will give a faster journey time on a service that will probably make three intermediate stops between Milton Keynes and New Street than sitting via Northampton on a service that stop at all local stations on the Coventry corridor)

You seem very good at suggesting other people have their services chopped up (and everything be "simplified" into some Germanic solution) - you regularly suggest that long established bus services should be terminated at the nearest light rail stop so that everyone has to change onto a tram - but you can't cope with the idea of having to change trains on journeys that you might have done (see also "Southport to Manchester Piccadilly")

why take them away just out of principle?

...because services can be unreliable (especially London - Northampton - Birmingham - Liverpool ones!) - demand is different on both sides of Northampton - you can terminate trains at Northampton but not so readily at New Street...

...however running longer distance services through New Street causes reliability problems - so a half hourly service like Northampton - New Street - Wolverhampton or Northampton - New Street - would be in the region of an hour and a half (Wolverhampton) to two hours (Rugeley), so more manageable if things go wrong - especially if you had a simple half hourly service (rather than the muddle of different hourly extensions beyond New Street that were tried and failed).

That means that you can have different frequencies each side of Northampton, that means you don't need to match up your Euston timings at New Street (since the services would be separate, and you don't need to match connections at Northampton since anyone doing cross-Northampton journeys would be changing at Milton Keynes or Rugby instead - other than the small number of people from Long Buckbey heading north, but I don't think we should base the entire timetable around them).

From what I can understand, you are suggesting a twenty minute London - Northampton service that then becomes a half hourly service west of Northampton?
 

Bletchleyite

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Well, here's the thing... there are plenty of intermediate stations but I don't think that places like Bletchley and Leighton Buzzard are particularly "significant" in the context of a discussion about Birmingham - what demand there is will generally be to Milton Keynes/ London rather than to Birmingham

Birmingham is certainly secondary, but there is demand.

You seem very good at suggesting other people have their services chopped up (and everything be "simplified" into some Germanic solution) - you regularly suggest that long established bus services should be terminated at the nearest light rail stop so that everyone has to change onto a tram - but you can't cope with the idea of having to change trains on journeys that you might have done (see also "Southport to Manchester Piccadilly")

I don't see what's non-Germanic about a through local Euston-Birmingham service. Germany and Switzerland have plenty of such long regional-express type routes, some of the German ones are well over 3 hours.

...because services can be unreliable (especially London - Northampton - Birmingham - Liverpool ones!)

Euston-Brum services were not unreliable, latter-day LM was very punctual indeed and a cancellation was basically completely unknown other than on the Marston Vale when the 153 packed up, it was adding Liverpool into the mix with too few diagrams, too much inter-operation etc that broke it.

- demand is different on both sides of Northampton

LM were for years adding/removing coaches at Northampton to deal with that, running 4 north of there and 8/12 south. And because it was also a crew changeover, if it ended up late they could send the Euston service out on-time but 4 short if they needed to (though it wasn't common) - also Swiss style practice.

- you can terminate trains at Northampton but not so readily at New Street...

More space to do that once Avanti isn't there any more, though it wasn't actually that much of an issue, and for Liverpools you've got 4C which isn't much use for much else.

That means that you can have different frequencies each side of Northampton

So poor connections - that's not a Takt unless they're multiples of each other.

that means you don't need to match up your Euston timings at New Street (since the services would be separate, and you don't need to match connections at Northampton since anyone doing cross-Northampton journeys would be changing at Milton Keynes or Rugby instead

Stuff Long Buckby and Wolverton, then?

From what I can understand, you are suggesting a twenty minute London - Northampton service that then becomes a half hourly service west of Northampton?

I'm not suggesting anything specific, though that can be achieved by having one wait 10 minutes extra at NMP. The south WCML will be completely recast anyway, so you could easily have something like Euston-Northampton 2tph and Euston-Brum 2tph, coming together to provide 4 semifast TPH at the more significant stations south of MKC, i.e. not Harrow/Bushey/Apsley/Kings Langley/Cheddington, to use one random example.

FWIW, if you do want Takt on the WCML (and I do) then you do need to have a set of matching frequencies. You can choose between intervals of 5/10/20/60/120, or 5/10/30/60/120, or 5/15/30/60/120 - not mix them. So 2tph north of NMP and 3tph south of it is really not ideal and should be avoided - if you have any 3s, that precludes 2s or the connections don't work.

(Actually, to add to that, 5/15/30/60/120 is probably the most practical one and fits with most other stuff nationally - so 3tph services on HS2 are probably a mistake too - 2tph with 4 at peak times would probably be better - a 20 minute frequency really does muck up a lot of other stuff because it precludes the use of 15 and 30 minute intervals which are extremely common, unless you're happy that only 1tph of connections match up, which is more than a little sloppy)
 

Purple Orange

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Post-HS2, I am envisaging that there will be 2tph Avanti (or successor) between London and Birmingham, and 4tph LNWR (or successor). The Avanti services I expect will extend to Wolverhampton with 1tph continuing to Shrewsbury and the other to a destination in the North West. The LNWR services on the other hand I am a bit stuck as to where they should go. Currently, they are combined with the Birmingham - Liverpool service and I can see some merit in keeping more through trains between Coventry and Wolverhampton, but this will reduce reliability of the service. Alternatively, they could take over the stopping service to Wolverhampton or Rugeley, but this depends on capacity as there are currently 10-11tph on the Birmingham loop and due to local demand I can’t see this changing even once HS2 opens.

The poll options are not mutually exclusive, therefore you could decide to keep 1tph running to Liverpool while terminating all the other services at Birmingham.

I doubt there will be an Avanti service of any kind. It won't be 125mph running because it no longer needs to be. Whatever services are running on the WCML post HS2, there should be a greater consistency of rolling stock. Doors at 1/3 & 2/3, 8-cars, 110mph max, calling at more stops between cities. HS2 will be doing the job Avanti does today.
 
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PTR 444

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I doubt there will be an Avanti service if any kind. It won't be 125mph running because it no longer needs to be. Whatever services are running on the WCML post HS2, there should be a greater consistency of rolling stock. Doors at 1/3 & 2/3, 8-cars, 110mph max, calling at more stops between cities. HS2 will be doing the job Avanti does today.
By that point, I think Avanti and LNWR will be merged into a single operation, therefore the use of TOC names is simply to differentiate the fast (Avanti) from semi-fast (LNWR) services. Wolverhampton and Coventry will still require fastish trains to London even if they call at more stations en-route post-HS2.

In regards to Takt, I am also in favour of it myself but as highlighted in the OP, I think it would be difficult between Coventry and Birmingham unless you cut the number of trains running along that corridor. If we remove all but one service terminating at Birmingham International, that allows 9tph on the line out of New Street. I would therefore propose a stopping pattern like this:
  • 2tph Rugeley - Northampton calling at all stations (faster services can overtake at Brum International)
  • 2tph New Street - Euston via Northampton
  • 2tph Shrewsbury/Wolverhampton - Euston direct
  • 2tph New Street - Reading/Bournemouth
  • 1tph Crewe - Birmingham International via Alsager
Alternatively, if a takt with 10tph is possible between New Street and International, go for this option instead:
  • 2tph Rugeley - Birmingham International (stopper)
  • 2tph New Street - Northampton (stopper)
  • 2tph New Street - Euston via Northampton (semi-fast)
  • 2tph Shrewsbury/Wolverhampton - Euston direct
  • 2tph New Street - Reading/Bournemouth
 

Purple Orange

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By that point, I think Avanti and LNWR will be merged into a single operation, therefore the use of TOC names is simply to differentiate the fast (Avanti) from semi-fast (LNWR) services. Wolverhampton and Coventry will still require fastish trains to London even if they call at more stations en-route post-HS2.

In regards to Takt, I am also in favour of it myself but as highlighted in the OP, I think it would be difficult between Coventry and Birmingham unless you cut the number of trains running along that corridor. If we remove all but one service terminating at Birmingham International, that allows 9tph on the line out of New Street. I would therefore propose a stopping pattern like this:
  • 2tph Rugeley - Northampton calling at all stations (faster services can overtake at Brum International)
  • 2tph New Street - Euston via Northampton
  • 2tph Shrewsbury/Wolverhampton - Euston direct
  • 2tph New Street - Reading/Bournemouth
  • 1tph Crewe - Birmingham International via Alsager
Alternatively, if a takt with 10tph is possible between New Street and International, go for this option instead:
  • 2tph Rugeley - Birmingham International (stopper)
  • 2tph New Street - Northampton (stopper)
  • 2tph New Street - Euston via Northampton (semi-fast)
  • 2tph Shrewsbury/Wolverhampton - Euston direct
  • 2tph New Street - Reading/Bournemouth
Yes I can see there being one TOC/Brand but there definitely won't be a Wolverhampton-Euston service in the same manner as it is today. Who will be taking the train that takes twice as long?
 

PTR 444

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Yes I can see there being one TOC/Brand but there definitely won't be a Wolverhampton-Euston service in the same manner as it is today. Who will be taking the train that takes twice as long?
I understand HS2 will be faster for end to end journeys, but surely Wolverhampton - Euston services should remain to improve connectivity from west of Birmingham to places such as Rugby and Milton Keynes.
 

Purple Orange

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I understand HS2 will be faster for end to end journeys, but surely Wolverhampton - Euston services should remain to improve connectivity from west of Birmingham to places such as Rugby and Milton Keynes.

Yes they would, I agree. Yet that will more than likely be run by a 350 (or whatever is similar in 2035), take longer than it does today buy make far more stops. The point of HS2 on the south WCML is to remove the fasts in order to be able to run more services that call at more stations along the way.
 
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I understand HS2 will be faster for end to end journeys, but surely Wolverhampton - Euston services should remain to improve connectivity from west of Birmingham to places such as Rugby and Milton Keynes.

2TPH Euston - Watford Junction - Milton Keynes - Rugby - Coventry - Intenational - New St - Wolverhampton with one extended to Shrewsbury calling at Telford Central and the other to Liverpool calling at Stafford, Crewe and Runcorn?
 

PTR 444

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2TPH Euston - Watford Junction - Milton Keynes - Rugby - Coventry - Intenational - New St - Wolverhampton with one extended to Shrewsbury calling at Telford Central and the other to Liverpool calling at Stafford, Crewe and Runcorn?
This is surely the most logical option. Also note that there will be no HS2 trains between Birmingham and Liverpool so extending a classic express train there makes more sense compared to somewhere like Manchester or Preston.
 

The Planner

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I doubt there will be an Avanti service of any kind. It won't be 125mph running because it no longer needs to be. Whatever services are running on the WCML post HS2, there should be a greater consistency of rolling stock. Doors at 1/3 & 2/3, 8-cars, 110mph max, calling at more stops between cities. HS2 will be doing the job Avanti does today.
I still think that is a massive assumption to make, if you can time a train to do 125mph then it will happen.
By that point, I think Avanti and LNWR will be merged into a single operation, therefore the use of TOC names is simply to differentiate the fast (Avanti) from semi-fast (LNWR) services. Wolverhampton and Coventry will still require fastish trains to London even if they call at more stations en-route post-HS2.

In regards to Takt, I am also in favour of it myself but as highlighted in the OP, I think it would be difficult between Coventry and Birmingham unless you cut the number of trains running along that corridor. If we remove all but one service terminating at Birmingham International, that allows 9tph on the line out of New Street. I would therefore propose a stopping pattern like this:
  • 2tph Rugeley - Northampton calling at all stations (faster services can overtake at Brum International)
  • 2tph New Street - Euston via Northampton
  • 2tph Shrewsbury/Wolverhampton - Euston direct
  • 2tph New Street - Reading/Bournemouth
  • 1tph Crewe - Birmingham International via Alsager
Alternatively, if a takt with 10tph is possible between New Street and International, go for this option instead:
  • 2tph Rugeley - Birmingham International (stopper)
  • 2tph New Street - Northampton (stopper)
  • 2tph New Street - Euston via Northampton (semi-fast)
  • 2tph Shrewsbury/Wolverhampton - Euston direct
  • 2tph New Street - Reading/Bournemouth
You are forgetting TfW there, I would be very surprised if the International service goes, though it could well end up picking up local stops. Also, are you suggesting 4tph all station stops to International or skips? 4tph stoppers hasn't a chance in hell of working.
 

PTR 444

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I still think that is a massive assumption to make, if you can time a train to do 125mph then it will happen.

You are forgetting TfW there, I would be very surprised if the International service goes, though it could well end up picking up local stops. Also, are you suggesting 4tph all station stops to International or skips? 4tph stoppers hasn't a chance in hell of working.
Would most likely be Rugeley - B’ham International services stopping all stations, while New Street - Northampton operates a skip-stop pattern west of B’ham International.

Though saying that, I think on second thoughts it may be easier if the two are combined into a 2tph Rugeley - Northampton stopper. That would free up some capacity to allow the TfW service to continue to International.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Though saying that, I think on second thoughts it may be easier if the two are combined into a 2tph Rugeley - Northampton stopper. That would free up some capacity to allow the TfW service to continue to International.

Personally I would do it as Rugeley to Cov and New St to Euston, ideally 2tph of each coming together to provide 4tph at the busier south Birmingham local stations.

The TfW going to International I think heads into tail-wagging-dog a bit like Manchester Airport (people do board there, but not that many seem to come from flights because typically flights are at antisocial times of day when it isn't operating, rather they come from Avanti from Euston and could change at New St instead). That doesn't mean it has no value, but it isn't worth mucking with the whole local service between Birmingham and Euston just to accommodate it, you could chuck it into 4C at New St instead* and put the Liverpools (which might be too long for 4C by then anyway) somewhere else.

* Assuming 4 x 24m will fit - it's a short bay and it may well not do. I can't remember how close to the signal 4.350 is, I think quite close.
 

JonathanH

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The TfW going to International I think heads into tail-wagging-dog a bit like Manchester Airport (people do board there, but not that many seem to come from flights because typically flights are at antisocial times of day when it isn't operating, rather they come from Avanti from Euston and could change at New St instead).
Of course, just like the Manchester Airport extensions of Scottish services to Manchester, the great virtue of running the TfW services to Birmingham International is that there is an expendable part of the journey that can be canned in disruption with the return journey running on time. There is also platform space at International for it to terminate and lay over there.

Before it was extended to Birmingham International, it had to be cut short at Wolverhampton in disruption. Now it gets cut short at New Street in disruption. This is obviously better.
 

Bletchleyite

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Of course, just like the Manchester Airport extensions of Scottish services to Manchester, the great virtue of running the TfW services to Birmingham International is that there is an expendable part of the journey that can be canned in disruption with the return journey running on time. There is also platform space at International for it to terminate and lay over there.

Before it was extended to Birmingham International, it had to be cut short at Wolverhampton in disruption. Now it gets cut short at New Street in disruption. This is obviously better.

Yes, it's operationally convenient, and that has more to do with why it goes there than taking people for their annual bucket-and-spade to Torremolinos, or whatever.

Of course what follows from that is that if the extension becomes operationally inconvenient (i.e. it prevents you doing something else more important, such as a decent south Birmingham local service), that's the time to can it.

The other thing worthy of consideration, of course, is whether operating it through to Euston with suitable rolling stock might not be a bad idea once HS2 has freed up a load of paths (see also North Wales Coast to Brum via Stafford rather than the grindingly slow route via Wrexham) but that sort of idea is way off and wouldn't work with Class 197s.
 

JonathanH

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Yes, it's operationally convenient, and that has more to do with why it goes there than taking people for their annual bucket-and-spade to Torremolinos, or whatever.

Of course what follows from that is that if the extension becomes operationally inconvenient (i.e. it prevents you doing something else more important, such as a decent south Birmingham local service), that's the time to can it.
Indeed, if London trains ran to Shrewsbury every hour, maybe the Welsh services would terminate at Shrewsbury which may be better all round.

There might need to be some electrification first.
 
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This is surely the most logical option. Also note that there will be no HS2 trains between Birmingham and Liverpool so extending a classic express train there makes more sense compared to somewhere like Manchester or Preston.

Once HS2 phase 2b opens I think there should be a 2TPH New St to Manchester Piccadilly service calling at Wolverhampton - Stafford - Stone - Stoke on Trent - Macclesfield and Stockport to maintain important interregional connections once they are bypassed by HS2.
 

Bletchleyite

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Indeed, if London trains ran to Shrewsbury every hour, maybe the Welsh services would terminate at Shrewsbury which may be better all round.

There might need to be some electrification first.

Or with that having crossed over my post, TfW gets a load of 80x or similar, takes over the awkward Shrewsbury service from son-of-Avanti, and operates two hourly Aber-Euston with Pwllheli as a connection (and the other hour perhaps as an extension of a New St-Shrewsbury local to Aber or something).
 

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21,293
Or with that having crossed over my post, TfW gets a load of 80x or similar, takes over the awkward Shrewsbury service from son-of-Avanti, and operates two hourly Aber-Euston with Pwllheli as a connection (and the other hour perhaps as an extension of a New St-Shrewsbury local to Aber or something).
The obvious problem with that is that the single track sections of the line West of Shrewsbury would effectively dictate the timetabling of the south WCML which wouldn't be desirable.
 

PTR 444

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Personally I would do it as Rugeley to Cov and New St to Euston, ideally 2tph of each coming together to provide 4tph at the busier south Birmingham local stations.
I think terminating at Coventry would only be achievable if there are 6tph or fewer west of there.

Thinking about it, I’ve just had an epiphany as post-HS2 there’s no longer a need for Bournemouth/Reading services to continue beyond Brum. These could be diverted at Leamington Spa to run to Snow Hill instead, so that’s 2tph fewer expresses already through the New Street corridor. Also, Moor Street is closer to Curzon Street than New Street is so would make for an easier change for South coast - Manchester passengers. Under this plan, I would also increase the Nuneaton-Leamington shuttle to 2tph and possibly extend to Oxford to compensate for the loss of its direct service to Coventry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Once HS2 phase 2b opens I think there should be a 2TPH New St to Manchester Piccadilly service calling at Wolverhampton - Stafford - Stone - Stoke on Trent - Macclesfield and Stockport to maintain important interregional connections once they are bypassed by HS2.
I agree with 3tph between Birmingham and Stoke, although I think there is a case for the Bristol - Manchester service to remain post-HS2 and there would be more merit in sending that via Stoke rather than Crewe. For local connections to Stoke, I would therefore consider 1tph Brum - Manchester and 1tph Brum - Crewe via Alsager.
 

JonathanH

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Under this plan, I would also increase the Nuneaton-Leamington shuttle to 2tph and possibly extend to Oxford to compensate
The demand between Leamington and Banbury doesn't justify this service. It would be poor use of rolling stock.

Bournemouth / Reading to Snow Hill (terminate) and diverting Chiltern services to Coventry (terminate) might be a solution. When coming up with ideas, the best solutions are those which don't increase the quantum of service over any given part of the route but just simplify the end points.
 

Ianno87

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Possibly split at Northampton, with services focused on cross-Birmingham connections instead.
 

The Planner

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Copy and Paste time "XC want 2tph via Coventry and will not entertain going elsewhere. If it was possible now they would be doing it"
 
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