Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

[AlterEgo]

But also a guaranteed seat...

Compulsory reservations are the worst idea anyone on the railway has ever had - and even worse now, post-pandemic.

What we've seen over the last year is very strong messaging from the railway itself to NOT travel and NOT use the train; people who were discretionary travellers before have returned to making trips by car. It is very difficult to encourage modal shift from car to train unless you try to compete on flexibility.

There will be so sunlit uplands of rail if you bring in compulsory reservations; it's a dreadful idea for all the reasons other posters state, but to distil it into a sentence: Why, when the advantages of using a car are convenience and unlimited flexibility, would you destroy rail's competitive edge in those areas?

 

[43074]

But people *will* get on the train if they have a guaranteed seat and don't have to worry about arguing over it, pushing past passengers to reach it etc etc.

Surprisingly enough postponing a York to Doncaster journey by 2 hours because the trains are fully reserved isn't something most people will be willing do to, so they will either drive (therefore losing the industry overall as much or more than the long distance advance fare they think they will get instead) or just get on the train anyway in the knowledge it is virtually unenforceable over such distances...

 

[DB]

Yes, ORCATS does that. The CATS literally stands for Computerised Allocation of Tickets to Seats.

Most people doing that trip won't bother with a reservation - it's only a 25 minute journey.

Might be a rare occurence in practice, but I bet it is a perceived worry or barrier to a much larger number of potential travellers. That is almost certainly supported by any market research along the lines of "why don't you travel by train more?".

It's clearly not, in normal circumstances, enough of a worry to prevent trains at peak times from being full and standing. Must admit I am unclear on the business logic behind turning away (and potentially alienating) dozens of regular travellers in order to be able to accomodate a few delicate flowers who can't cope with busy trains. However you look at it, this would be a deliberate plan to reduce income.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, ORCATS does that. The CATS literally stands for Computerised Allocation of Tickets to Seats.

This is a misunderstanding of what ORCATS does; it does not tie tickets to seats (the S stands for Services) and is based mostly on guesswork and not empirical data. It is a very old methodology akin to trying to imagine what your house looks like from its 1991 council tax valuation.

 

[HBP]

Welcome to LNER

The next train from platform...

:You must have a reservation for this train and sit in your allocated seat.

:Remember to check in on the app once you are seated.

:Alcohol is not permitted on this service.

:Please have your ticket & vaccination documents with you at all times.


See it. Say it. Shafted.

Have a pleasant journey.

 

[Ianno87]

Err, nope, Computerised Allocation of Tickets to Sectors!

Or according to Wikipedia (I know, don't point it out) it is "Services"

 

[DB]

See it. Say it. Shafted.

 

[Fuzzytop]

Might it be the case that they're considering retention of compulsory bookings only for some services, potentially those that run non-stop King's X - York/Newcastle? Those journeys are more comparable to domestic flights, and will soon be in direct competition with the First open-access which is (iirc) going to be reservation only.

 

[bramling]

Yes, ORCATS does that. The CATS literally stands for Computerised Allocation of Tickets to Seats.



Might be a rare occurence in practice, but I bet it is a perceived worry or barrier to a much larger number of potential travellers. That is almost certainly supported by any market research along the lines of "why don't you travel by train more?".

The end outcome might actually be more travellers overall - people travelling on previously quiet services whose worries are unfounded.

Of course “getting a seat” is going to feature highly in market research. But surely “reservations available” goes far enough to assuage that? “Reservations compulsory” introduces new negative connotations... What happens if I miss my train? What happens if the train is cancelled? What happens if the person compulsorily reserved next to me has a BO problem?

 

[YorksLad12]

Oh dear. This wouldn't be too great a move on LNER's part. By doing compulsory reservations they could easily wave goodbye to those who use their services to London from Peterborough and Stevenage. If they were to go compulsory reservation it would just push people onto Great Northern.

The same would also happen to the commuters who use LNER between Dundee and Edinburgh, as well as intermediate stations who would move to the Scotrail services.

Here's a thought. I want to return to Leeds from London on the 1803. But I can't, because all the people travelling London-Peterborough have reserved seats... If it's compulsory reservation where you have no choice to use a different operator, fine. And if I can turn up at the station early, swap my reservation for the next train with minimum fuss (assuming the seat I choose is actually free, not just free in the reservations system), fine. And if I don't have to pay extra because my train is now in the peak or peak shoulder, fine.

What are the chances of any of that happening?

Genuine question (as one who hardly has any apps beyond the default ones that the phone came with): Do you need a separate app for each train operator to deal with reservations? Given my location I was (pre-covid) a regular user of EMR, CrossCountry, TransPennine, Avanti and TfW (and Northern, of course, but I assume that they would never need compulsory reservations). Or can it be done through 'National Rail' regardless of how a ticket might have been purchased?

Yes, I think so. You can use any app to just book a ticket (I always use the TPE one, better than Northern's). With LNER I book through the website and collect physical tickets as the Travel Buddy app is/was a mess. Incidentally, I was invited to beta test the new LNER app for iDevices. It's awful; sized for iPhones only not iPads, and works the same way as the website does but on a smaller screen.

 

[Ianno87]

Might it be the case that they're considering retention of compulsory bookings only for some services, potentially those that run non-stop King's X - York/Newcastle? Those journeys are more comparable to domestic flights, and will soon be in direct competition with the First open-access which is (iirc) going to be reservation only.

There is definitely more logic in the Anglo-Scots fasts going compulsory reservation than (for example) the York "stoppers" I would agree.

It (First East Coast) will be an interesting test of which reservation model London-Newcastle/Edinburgh passengers prefer for such longer journeys.

 

[bramling]

Welcome to LNER

The next train from platform...

:You must have a reservation for this train and sit in your allocated seat.

:Remember to check in on the app once you are seated.

:Alcohol is not permitted on this service.

:Please have your ticket & vaccination documents with you at all times.


See it. Say it. Shafted.

Have a pleasant journey.

lol - brilliant!

Don’t forget something nasty and threatening about masks too.

 

[JonathanH]

Is it possible to link to the article somewhere so the whole context of the discission can be understood?

This is the relevant text from the March 2021 edition of Modern Railways.

Compulsory reservation, which came in on LNER services last year, has proved useful in promoting social distancing on trains, with travllers concentrated on the window seats to keep them away from the aisle. Customers can book up to five minutes before departure on the LNER app, while booking office staff will assist those who struggle with technology. Anyway, this is, according to Mr Horne, a vanishingly small proportion of the market. 'What we've seen with the pandemic is that there's been a technological shift. All of the demographics have become more comfortable with IT; we've seen grandparents get familiar with ZOOM in order to talk to the grandchildren, and people are getting more and more tech savvy'.

While compulsory reservation facilitates social distancing now, after the pandemic it could help alleviate overcrowding by directing passengers away from busy services, in the way that it has done on French TGV services for decades. 'When you think about pre-Covid times, when we could have people standing all the way from London to Edinburgh, it has given us a way to avoid that situation. We will be saying that compulsory reservation has a place in the future of LNER'.

There has been some debate about whether LNER should have awaited an industry-wide standard on compulsory reservation, but David Horne is unrepentant. 'LNER delivered the system in three weeks; we couldn't have done that it we'd waited on the Rail Delivery Group. I've been having weekly calls with other company MDs to compare notes; Avanti West Coast and CrossCountry have both decided to adopt compulsory reservations'.

Later on in the article there is some stuff about fares reform and the words

We've got to build back trust and resolve the split ticketing issue, whereby people can save money by buying multiple tickets for different legs of a journey. This shoud be combined with flexible reservations for all.'

 

[Ianno87]

Of course “getting a seat” is going to feature highly in market research. But surely “reservations available” goes far enough to assuage that? “Reservations compulsory” introduces new negative connotations... What happens if I miss my train? What happens if the train is cancelled? What happens if the person compulsorily reserved next to me has a BO problem?

Presumably, LNER got some reasonable "feel" for this over the summer, albeit helped by restricting the number of reservable seats.

I think the key is to make "the passenger" feel like they are in some form of control. e.g. don't like your seat? Speak to the guard, or press the "find me another seat" button on the App.

The BO problem "problem" is of course already a problem on a packed train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would say that a seat selector on all points of obtaining a reservation is crucial to me supporting this.

 

[DB]

Presumably, LNER got some reasonable "feel" for this over the summer, albeit helped by restricting the number of reservable seats.

I think the key is to make "the passenger" feel like they are in some form of control. e.g. don't like your seat? Speak to the guard, or press the "find me another seat" button on the App.

The BO problem "problem" is of course already a problem on a packed train.

Really not sure how anyone could get a 'feel' for any situation under the abnormal conditions we've had for the past year. Of course a proportion of people will be terrified of going within six feet of another person, but this would be a very bad reason to impose long-term changes.

 

[Ianno87]

I would say that a seat selector on all points of obtaining a reservation is crucial to me supporting this.

Absolutely yes. Make you feel like picking your seat is no harder than walking down the carriage.

 

[AlterEgo]

Really not sure how anyone could get a 'feel' for any situation under the abnormal conditions we've had for the past year. Of course a proportion of people will be terrified of going within six feet of another person, but this would be a very bad reason to impose long-term changes.

The sort of people who will still have an aversion to being around lots of people, and who have a car, will invariably drive.

 

[Robertj21a]

I can't really believe all these comments from some people who clearly believe that passengers will flock back to trains with compulsory reservations. Have they never realised that many such passengers have the use of a car?

 

[Ianno87]

Really not sure how anyone could get a 'feel' for any situation under the abnormal conditions we've had for the past year. Of course a proportion of people will be terrified of going within six feet of another person, but this would be a very bad reason to impose long-term changes.

In fairness, if you were going to try something like this out, it's about the best opportunity you could be given!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really not sure how anyone could get a 'feel' for any situation under the abnormal conditions we've had for the past year. Of course a proportion of people will be terrified of going within six feet of another person, but this would be a very bad reason to impose long-term changes.

And indeed this, once you allow occupation of all seats, would be a reason NOT to do compulsory reservation. Can you imagine the Press printing a story "the railway made a clinically extremely vulnerable person sit next to someone when there were empty seats"?

 

[Domh245]

'When you think about pre-Covid times, when we could have people standing all the way from London to Edinburgh, it has given us a way to avoid that situation. We will be saying that compulsory reservation has a place in the future of LNER'.

That doesn't come across at all well IMO - "We'd rather people didn't travel with us than stand"

 

[Ianno87]

I can't really believe all these comments from some people who clearly believe that passengers will flock back to trains with compulsory reservations. Have they never realised that many such passengers have the use of a car?

Like I've said upthead, LNER were (in my view) clearly the most successful long distance operator at getting passengers back last summer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely yes. Make you feel like picking your seat is no harder than walking down the carriage.

In many ways easier. Unlike some I like the idea of XC Ten Minute Reservations but I won't use it because I can't select a seat. TPE's version was better and did offer that.

 

[JonathanH]

I would say that a seat selector on all points of obtaining a reservation is crucial to me supporting this.

The problem with that is that you person A may travel from Leeds to Doncaster and another person may travel from Doncaster to Peterborough. and another Peterborough to London and not choose the same seat, preventing someone else from travelling from Leeds to London. Compulsory reservation only works with some facility which forces the separate reservations to use the same seat.

I could imagine the need to pay extra for selecting seats to offset the revenue risk of the reservations not lining up as the allocation algorithm needs to do part of the work. I doubt that tickets would be sold which required people to move seats during the journey to take account of the issue I described.

For short journeys maybe just a quota and no actual seat allocated is better. I would be more happy with the concept of compulsory reservation if it didn't force particular seats to be used.

 

[43096]

Does it necessarily? Or does it better distribute demand to available capacity? By spreading passengers who would be otherwise prepared to stand onto available capacity on other trains?

Do you actually use trains? Because there are times - Friday afternoon/Sunday afternoon are notable examples on LNER - where you can't spread passengers as every service is full.

 

[DarloRich]

This is the relevant text from the March 2021 edition of Modern Railways.


Later on in the article there is some stuff about fares reform and the words

Thank you. The text quoted and the comments on this thread do not match up

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would not overly object to paying for use of a seat selector, within reason.

Thank you. The text quoted and the comments on this thread do not match up

Erm, yes they do. If you disagree, could you quote which bits and we can have a further discussion?

Thanks to the person who quoted it, I don't have it to hand.

 

[Ianno87]

Do you actually use trains? Because there are times - Friday afternoon/Sunday afternoon are notable examples on LNER - where you can't spread passengers as every service is full.

To answer your question, yes. And I very, very rarely do any kind of long distance journey without some form of Advance booking or reservation (and if not I have a pretty fixed idea of my intended trains). And I suspect I'm far from alone in this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you actually use trains? Because there are times - Friday afternoon/Sunday afternoon are notable examples on LNER - where you can't spread passengers as every service is full.

All trains being full in the week leading up to Christmas is not at all unusual in France, I believe.