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"£100m" claim launched against TOCS re: Boundary zone tickets

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I don't understand your logic? The fact they have been doing this for decades does not mean it's doomed to fail.

What I mean is that the fares exist and have done for ages, if they are suggesting that people are being denied these fares having asked for them, or where it would be reasonable to offer them, then there may be a case, but is that really what's happening? If I ask for a ticket to X and show my Travelcard, are there many ticket offices that would really sell a fare from the London terminal and claim that there's nothing cheaper?
 
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Kite159

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What I mean is that the fares exist and have done for ages, if they are suggesting that people are being denied these fares having asked for them, or where it would be reasonable to offer them, then there may be a case, but is that really what's happening? If I ask for a ticket to X and show my Travelcard, are there many ticket offices that would really sell a fare from the London terminal and claim that there's nothing cheaper?

The only one I can think of which has given me an issue is East Croydon when wanting to buy a BZ6 - Gatwick ticket, as they tried to sell an East Croydon - Gatwick ticket "it's the same price".
 

Silverdale

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What I mean is that the fares exist and have done for ages, if they are suggesting that people are being denied these fares having asked for them, or where it would be reasonable to offer them, then there may be a case, but is that really what's happening?

The claim in relation to the collective action isn't specifically that people were/are being denied certain fares having asked for them. It is that certain fares that could be used in conjunction with a Travelcard were/are not being made sufficiently available, or available at all, in some cases. e.g. where a TVM offers a range of fares to X but does not include boundary zone fares, where such fares exist.

The claimants say that is what's really happening and they are confident enough in their case to have found the cash to cover the potential costs of taking it to the Tribunal.
 

PeterC

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If someone comes to my window and tells me about them having a travelcard or a freedom pass of course I will sell them the boundary zone ticket (without being specifically asked and without question) and unless I am being very naive (which I accept is a fair possibility as I have history of having mixed successes at ticket offices when a passenger), I’m sure most other clerks would as well?

Many passengers are confused by the difference between a travelcard and a railcard and use the names interchangeably, it would be even more difficult and time consuming to ask every passenger if they have any other ticket contributing towards the journey they intend to make. I think the onus should be on the passenger to make the clerk aware, but then the clerk should sell the correct ticket. There’s no real reason why they can’t be made available on TVMs or online either.
If every purchaser was asked about what tickets or passes they may or may not hold there would soon be complaints in the press about the "Spanish Inquisition" at ticket offices. Then there would be the person buying for somebody else:
"Do you have a travelcard sir?"
"yes, zones 1 to 6"
cue Mrs Commuter getting a PF.
 

Silverdale

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cue Mrs Commuter getting a PF.

Which is why the better question is; "Will you be using a Travelcard/railcard?"

As for the Spanish Inquisition, there is a code of practice for retail rail ticket sales, which all retailers are supposed to be complying with*. Simply following it shouldn't lead to the kind of interrogation you suggest. Signs and leaflets can do a lot of the work of making sure customers provide the right information to enable them to be sold the right product.

And to be clear, the legal action isn't being taken against sales staff who try their best yet inevitably sometimes fail to offer the relevant fare. It's being taken against the train companies for their systematic failure to make certain tickets as available as they should be.

*under the implied threat that the ORR will take action, if they don't. Some threat.
 

yorkie

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Did I say that? I dont think I did.
So, do you agree that these areas of law do take precedence?
I have a lot more understanding than you think yorkie.
Your posts suggest otherwise, especially the supermarket analogy.
Can you show me in both consumer contract law and the legislation that the railway has to abide by when retailing tickets - that they HAVE to sell all these various niche and cheaper tickets by default?
TSA page 157
...an Operator of an Internet Site or a Telephone Sales Office or a Site that is an Impartial Point of Sale must offer for Sale: (i) all Permanent Fares that are Basic Products and which relate to the Flows listed in Fares Manuals...
however the train companies have chosen not to allow these fares (which are defined as basic permanent fares; regardless of how you categorise them) using all retail channels, meaning at some stations the choice is between overpaying or joining a lengthy queue.

It my opinion, and that of those solicitors and barristers whom I've discussed the matter with, that this is an abuse of a dominant market position.

Now, you may disagree, but clearly several legal people who have better knowledge on this area of law than either of us, do think that this is the case.
No one(especially me) has suggested that they are not entitled to them - unless you can point out where I have said that they are not then I will concede this point to you.
I do not understand the point you are making but if you agree that holders of Travelcards are entitled to have easy access to Boundary Zone extensions using all retail methods, and that people requiring such extensions should not be forced with a choice of missing their train due to queueing or overpaying, then we are in agreement.


But thats not what this class action is about though - its not about the difficulty of purchasing them though so i think you may have read it and understood it wrong and in your haste have made the error of me saying things I didnt nor understanding the class action suit which, i shall get the direct quote from the story 'accused of forcing passengers to “pay double” for their journeys.'
I am fully aware of what this class action is about, and it is very much about the difficulty of purchasing them. I think you have misread it and misunderstood it and in your haste have made the error of making incorrect statements on this forum.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...er-making-passengers-pay-double-a4077796.html
...But in reality these fares were not promoted or made available for sale online, over the phone or at platform machines and were rarely offered at ticket counters. This left passengers with “little option” other than to pay twice, according to the claim...

If you are unsure how this principle works, I suggest you have a discussion with a solicitor who is proficient in competition law.
The claim in relation to the collective action isn't specifically that people were/are being denied certain fares having asked for them. It is that certain fares that could be used in conjunction with a Travelcard were/are not being made sufficiently available, or available at all, in some cases. e.g. where a TVM offers a range of fares to X but does not include boundary zone fares, where such fares exist.

The claimants say that is what's really happening and they are confident enough in their case to have found the cash to cover the potential costs of taking it to the Tribunal.
Yes, exactly.

And I am sure there are more cases of a similar nature to come.
 

Starmill

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Regulations on the railway industry, contracts between companies and government and indeed contracts between customers and businesses cannot ignore competition law. Just because the government directs that something should be done or a contract stipulates it should be done, that does not mean that competition law no longer applies if doing so might be a breach. Ultimately, it is for a Judge to apply competition law to all else.
 

mmh

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Just how many 'Normal' travellers know about the existence of Boundary Zone tickets?

Is the ticket office seller (at say London Victoria) meant to know that someone already holds a travelcard if they come up and ask "can I get a day return to Rochester"? [Using the example given in the article?].

In a way it is like split ticketing as the informed traveller is splitting their travels at the boundary of zone 'X', and is like someone travelling from A to C where splitting at B is cheaper. The 'Normal' will pay over the odds for a ticket from A to C, but the informed traveller will pay the cheaper rate by splitting.

I know many on this forum are obsessed by split ticketing, but this has nothing to do with it.

"How is the ticket seller supposed to know that someone has a travelcard"

By asking them. Seems a reasonable thing to do at a ticket office within the travelcard area.
 

Kite159

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I know many on this forum are obsessed by split ticketing, but this has nothing to do with it.

"How is the ticket seller supposed to know that someone has a travelcard"

By asking them. Seems a reasonable thing to do at a ticket office within the travelcard area.

Might have been in the days before weekly capping on contactless has probably reduced the sale of travelcards, as well with oyster. Not everybody in London uses travelcards.
 

Silverdale

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Ultimately, it is for a Judge to apply competition law to all else.

In the present case, it will be for the Tribunal, rather than a judge, to adjudicate whether actions or failures by the TOCs were/are anti-competitive.

Potentially the Tribunal's decision could be open to Judicial Review, but that would be on the basis that the Tribunal's decision itself was unlawful, e.g. that the adjudication process was flawed/unfair.

It is worth noting, in passing, that the ORR has the power (and the duty) to take cases to the competition authorities where train companies are involved and this is a clear case where that should have happened, rather than relying on privately funded individuals to bring a case to the Tribunal.
 

farleigh

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Nope - show me where I have missed the point - then show me where train operating companiues are compelled in both consumer contract law and the railway legislation that they HAVE to seel the cheapest ticket for any journey AND must also first ask if they have a travelcard in order to sell them the correct fare.

I will await your answer
I think it would be best to read Yorkie's post as it seems to explain your misunderstanding better than I could hope to.
 

Paul Kelly

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The only one I can think of which has given me an issue is East Croydon when wanting to buy a BZ6 - Gatwick ticket, as they tried to sell an East Croydon - Gatwick ticket "it's the same price".
I had this at St Pancras EMT Booking Office once, but it turned out they had done me a favour as the ECR-GTW "Thameslink Only" fare was cheaper than the BZ6-GTW "Any Permitted". They did make an assumption I would be travelling on a through Thameslink train from St Pancras, but I don't think that was an unreasonable assumption in the circumstances, especially as it was a correct assumption!
 

JaJaWa

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Back in the news today: https://www.law360.com/articles/1362807/railways-face-98m-class-action-over-unfair-ticket-prices

Railways Face £98M Class Action Over 'Unfair' Ticket Prices​

Law360, London (March 9, 2021, 5:20 PM GMT) -- A consumer rights expert urged a specialist competition tribunal in London on Tuesday to allow a £98 million ($136 million) lawsuit against three train operators accused of forcing passengers to pay double for their journeys to go ahead as a class action.

The companies that run the Southeastern and South Western rail networks overcharged millions of travelers in a "widespread, systematic and ongoing" abuse of their dominant market position, lawyers for Justin Gutmann, the former head of research at Citizens Advice, alleged at the Competition Appeal Tribunal.

Gutmann, who also spent eight years working for London Underground, is seeking a collective proceedings order to represent millions of rail passengers who were allegedly forced to pay twice from October 2015 onward for tickets bought for travel beyond the subway zones covered by their travelcards, which cover journeys across the whole of London.

Stagecoach South Western Trains Ltd., First MTR South Western Trains Ltd. and London & South Eastern Railway Ltd. are accused of an abuse of dominance by failing to offer travelcard holders the chance to pay "boundary fares" for the distance between the outer limit of their ticket's coverage and their final destination.

Gutmann's lawyer, Philip Moser QC, argued that the companies failed to "live up to their special responsibility" to take sufficient steps to prevent passengers from being charged twice for the part of their journey that would have already been covered by their travelcards.

"The consumer is wholly dependent on being quoted the cheapest prices, based on a system of such complexity that using the term Byzantine might be unfair to the ancient Byzantines," Moser said.

On average, boundary fares on the train operators' networks are £5.09 cheaper than the corresponding full journey fare, according to court documents.

The proposed class of claimants includes anyone who owned a Travelcard at any time from October 2015 and also bought a rail fare from a station within the zones of their travelcard to a destination outside those zones.

Affected passengers who live in the U.K. will be automatically included in the claim unless they choose to opt out. Those who live overseas will also be eligible to join the claim, but must choose to opt in.

A spokesman for Southeastern said the company does not comment on ongoing legal proceedings. South Western and Stagecoach declined to comment.

The CPO application is the first to be heard after the U.K. Supreme Court adopted a more lenient test in December for deciding whether an antitrust suit merits collective status. That ruling revived a proposed £14 billion suit against Mastercard over the credit card company's allegedly unfair swipe fees.

Moser said that, in light of the Supreme Court's confirmation that "the core purpose of collective proceedings is to vindicate the rights of consumers and to provide access to justice where individual claims are likely to be impracticable or disproportionate, the present claims are prime example of the types of claims for which the collective proceedings regime were designed."

If granted, the opt-out class of rail passengers will be the first to merit collective status under a collective proceedings order, known as a CPO. The order was introduced in 2015 under the Consumer Rights Act to help individuals recover money lost through violations of competition law.

The case is also the first to be brought without the benefit of an underlying regulatory decision, breaking new ground for the certification process.

The CPO application hearing is set to last four days and will include an attempt by the train operators to strike out the claims.

Moser said the applications for strike-out and reverse summary judgment should be refused because there are numerous disputes between the two sides that require further evidence and because the law on the collective proceedings regime is a developing area.

Justin Gutmann is represented by Philip Moser QC, Stefan Kuppen and Alexandra Littlewood of Monckton Chambers, instructed by Hausfeld LLP.

First MTR is represented by Tim Ward QC and James Bourke of Monckton Chambers.

Stagecoach is represented by Sarah Abram of Brick Court Chambers.

London & South Eastern Railway is represented by Paul Harris QC, Anneliese Blackwood and Michael Armitage of Monckton Chambers.

The cases are Justin Gutmann v. First MTR South Western Trains Ltd. and another, case number 1304/7/719 and Justin Gutmann v. London & South Eastern Railway Ltd., case number 1305/7/7/19, in the United Kingdom Competition Appeal Tribunal.

--Editing by Joe Millis.

Update: This story has been updated to add "no comment" from all three train companies.
 

packermac

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Just how many 'Normal' travellers know about the existence of Boundary Zone tickets?

Is the ticket office seller (at say London Victoria) meant to know that someone already holds a travelcard if they come up and ask "can I get a day return to Rochester"? [Using the example given in the article?].

In a way it is like split ticketing as the informed traveller is splitting their travels at the boundary of zone 'X', and is like someone travelling from A to C where splitting at B is cheaper. The 'Normal' will pay over the odds for a ticket from A to C, but the informed traveller will pay the cheaper rate by splitting.
But some do. Myself and the wife went to purchase some offer to Southend C2C were running at Fenchurch Street and we were asked if we had a Travelcard or freedom pass as it would be cheaper from Upminster. Something I had used for normal tickets but not even thought about with the special offer.
 

infobleep

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I use to buy Boundary Zone tickets but mostly prior to spring 2013. I use to buy them at ticket offices as I couldn't buy them online nor bag the time from a ticket machine

Right at this moment I wouldn't know how to buy such a thing from a TMV.
 

CyrusWuff

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The usual "excuse" TOCs use for not offering Boundary Zone tickets online or at TVMs is the requirement to use such tickets in combination with a Travelcard so they want to see said Travelcard at the time of purchase. Depending on the journey being made, the workaround for this may be to buy a ticket from an appropriate named station instead, though this restricts your choice of routes where there are multiple options (e.g. London to Cambridge, London to Brighton, London to Oxford, etc).
 

yorkie

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I also found this:

https://charleslyndon.com/charles-l...competition-and-regulartory-team-of-the-year/
Charles Lyndon is pleased to announce that the firm, together with Hausfeld London, has been nominated for ‘Competition and Regulatory Team of the Year’ at The Lawyer Awards 2020. The awards recognise exceptional talent in the City of London and across the country. Winners at Awards are a force to be reckoned with, having been highly commended by The Lawyer’s elite judging panel for implementing bold initiatives in the legal industry.

The team has been shortlisted for its exceptional work on the “Trains” case against the South Western and South Eastern rail franchises. The claim was filed at the Competition Appeal Tribunal by our client Mr. Justin Gutmann on behalf of rail passengers who have been overcharged due to the limited availability of boundary fares. The claim is the first stand-alone collective action to be filed in England & Wales.

In bringing the case, Charles Lyndon joined forces with Hausfeld & Co, who are pioneers in the private enforcement of competition law in Europe. Charles Lyndon’s expertise in competition law and consumer litigation coupled with Hausfeld’s history of success in bringing abuse of dominance cases, creates a team well-placed to help to ensure that the money that South Western and South-Eastern have made from this is returned to those train users.

Boundary fares allow passengers who own a TfL Travelcard to travel beyond the zones covered by their Travelcard without paying twice for parts of their journey. For example, if a rail passenger owned a zones 1-4 Travelcard, but needed to travel from Waterloo to Reading they should be able to purchase a fare from the edge of zone 4 to Reading. Charles Lyndon’s extensive research into business practices of train operating companies revealed that this is not the reality. Owing to the difficulty in purchasing boundary fares and the fact that consumer awareness is very low, rail passengers end up paying for the full journey from Waterloo to Reading and, in doing so, pay twice for the part of the journey between Waterloo and the boundary of zone 4.

Passengers who owned a Travelcard at any time from 1 October 2015 and also purchased a rail fare from a station within the zones of their Travelcard to a destination outside of those zones may be eligible to claim. The team is seeking compensation for all those passengers affected. The total sought is around £100 million in damages to be distributed among an estimated 1.5 million claimants.

Everyone who fits the description above and lives in the UK will be automatically included in the class, unless that person chooses to ‘opt-out’. However, note that non-UK residents will likely be required to ‘opt-in’ to the proceedings, in order to participate.

There is no cost for bringing the action. This claim is being funded by Woodsford Litigation Funding, a specialist litigation funder. By absorbing both the costs and risks associated with a claim of this size, Woodsford is enabling the claim to be brought and ensuring that as many rail passengers as possible benefit from this legal action.

Charles Lyndon are excited to bring this case, not only because of the implications for collective proceedings in the future, which will allow consumers to claim without financial risk what is rightfully theirs, but also to see justice brought to London commuters. Mr. Gutmann, the class representative in the case, stated:

“Passengers in London already pay a lot of money for trains that are often delayed or not even running. Now following extensive research, we have found that some passengers are paying twice for parts of their rail journeys.
Millions of rail passengers could be eligible for compensation. Let’s put this right and stop train companies taking passengers for a ride.”

I wonder why GTR, Chiltern, GWR. Greater Anglia and C2C are not on the list...
It may seem odd on the face of it, but you have to consider how class action lawsuits work.

To cut a long story short (and because I can't say too much on this subject), it may not be deemed worthwhile pursuing those TOCs.

I am not sure whether or not this particular case will succeed but it will be interesting to see how it goes.

I am also reasonably sure this won't be the last class action lawsuit against a TOC; I can think of a few areas where train companies are acting in a manner that could land them in hot water (and are potentially more clear-cut than this case in my opinion), though I won't go into any further detail here.

Having learnt a bit about how competition and consumer law work in recent years, I was staggered to discover how little attention TOCs appear to take to adhering to these areas of law; they really ought to buck their ideas up as some TOCs appear to be leaving themselves wide open for class action lawsuits, in my opinion.
 
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paul1609

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I wonder why GTR, Chiltern, GWR. Greater Anglia and C2C are not on the list...
The GTR franchise all revenue goes directly to the Dft. GTR are paid a management fee. You'd be effectively bringing a class action lawsuit against the government.
 

yorkie

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The GTR franchise all revenue goes directly to the Dft. GTR are paid a management fee. You'd be effectively bringing a class action lawsuit against the government.
That doesn't preclude a class action lawsuit but there are various potential reasons why a particular TOC may not be pursued.
 

b0b

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My experience with BZ tickets is that they are not well advertised. I only know about them because I had a Z1-4 travel card, but it was often quicker to take a fast train to East Croydon and bounce back a stop, rather than the all stops service. One day I asked a ticket window do I have to do to make my travel card valid via East Croydon and was sold the BZ product, which I then did occasionally when I wasn't in the mood for the all stop option.

Also, not all tickets have a BZ option, I couldn't buy a BZ to Glasgow Central, so in that case I was paying twice to use the bit of track out of Euston.

If this is successful somehow, I wonder if "change of route excess" could be the next target.
 

Haywain

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Also, not all tickets have a BZ option, I couldn't buy a BZ to Glasgow Central, so in that case I was paying twice to use the bit of track out of Euston.
For those longer distance journeys this is almost always because the fare from the boundary would have been the same as the fare from the London terminus, making a BZ fare pointless. In general terms BZ fares were only set for destinations within the old Network South East area.
 

paul1609

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That doesn't preclude a class action lawsuit but there are various potential reasons why a particular TOC may not be pursued.
Absolutely but you either take on the government directly or you take on "some of the horrible companies who are pocketing the poor travellers money" If you take on GTR they have no financial reason to be bothered. I suspect that GTR (and others) also have the complication that at some of their major stations the ticket offices and ticket machines are operated by third parties over which they have no control (LNER, EMR etc.) SE at St Pancras is neatly excluded by HS1 not being in the Travelcard area. Southeastern and Southwestern are linked through Waterloo/ Waterloo East.
 

Starmill

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The GTR franchise all revenue goes directly to the Dft. GTR are paid a management fee. You'd be effectively bringing a class action lawsuit against the government.
I'm not entirely sure that would be a problem really, certainly not in the case of a government-owned company anyway, and GTR is a far looser relationship than that.

If you take on GTR they have no financial reason to be bothered.
They would if they were instructed to defend the claim.
 

infobleep

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I am also reasonably sure this won't be the last class action lawsuit against a TOC; I can think of a few areas where train companies are acting in a manner that could land them in hot water (and are potentially more clear-cut than this case in my opinion), though I won't go into any further detail here.

Having learnt a bit about how competition and consumer law work in recent years, I was staggered to discover how little attention TOCs appear to take to adhering to these areas of law; they really ought to buck their ideas up as some TOCs appear to be leaving themselves wide open for class action lawsuits, in my opinion.
Do you think some of the other more clear cut ones, you are aware of, would stack up financially?

If this was successful, how would it be determined someone held a ticket and had paid more than they should? What evidence would be used?
 

yorkie

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Do you think some of the other more clear cut ones, you are aware of, would stack up financially?
The key question is whether the case would be funded.

This would consider aspects such as what the claim value would be, how many people would be part of the class, and what the budget would be.

If you are asking whether I think other cases could be funded, I think you can guess the answer to that question!

If this was successful, how would it be determined someone held a ticket and had paid more than they should? What evidence would be used?
I would imagine evidence such as tickets purchased (which could be a physical or electronic ticket), debit/credit card statements, etc.

If this is successful somehow, I wonder if "change of route excess" could be the next target.
Excess fares are indeed among the kind of thing I had in mind, but if I were a betting person I would bet against them being the "next target".
 
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b0b

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Excess fares are indeed among the kind of thing I had in mind, but if I were a betting person I would bet against them being the "next target".

It's the other fare I know that is not well advertised. I only learned they existed when I held a Bedford - Glasgow NOT LONDON return, and the journey north was so miserable, I asked at Glasgow Central if there was a way to change the ticket to go via London. Turns out there was without buying a whole new ticket!
 

Mcr Warrior

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It's the other fare I know that is not well advertised. I only learned they existed when I held a Bedford - Glasgow NOT LONDON return, and the journey north was so miserable, I asked at Glasgow Central if there was a way to change the ticket to go via London. Turns out there was without buying a whole new ticket!
Did you have to pay a one way change of route excess? Travelling via London on an "Any Permitted" routed ticket (which includes a Maltese Cross indicating/suggesting LU transfer is permitted) seems to be slightly more expensive than a "Not via London" routed ticket .
 

Mcr Warrior

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Have had problems with them before (albeit outwith the London area) with a number of ticket offices seeking to charge more than what should have been due for a one way change of route excess on the return leg of a particular journey.
 
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