Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Just wondering about the two lines suggested in the TfW "speculative ideas" thing, namely:
- Reopen the Amlwch branch
- Reopen Bangor - Caernarfon - Porthmadog line
Just wondered how realistic either of those proposals were (let's just assume that we're only concerned with the practicalities of reintroducing services, not whether they're a good use of funds)?
Much of the trackbed between Caernarfon and Porthmadog is an excellent cycleway. The WHR links those places already, perhaps railcars could be run on that line which was reopened with millions in grants and donations.
Just wondering about the two lines suggested in the TfW "speculative ideas" thing, namely:
- Reopen the Amlwch branch
- Reopen Bangor - Caernarfon - Porthmadog line
Just wondered how realistic either of those proposals were (let's just assume that we're only concerned with the practicalities of reintroducing services, not whether they're a good use of funds)?
Amlwch wouldn't need much work, the track is still there.
Caernarfon has been partly built on, but would be of considerable benefit and there's already an obvious train service to run there, too (extend the hourly Manchester-Bangor once that starts).
If you ask me I'd say the former is very unlikely (because buses on uncongested, mostly 60mph roads serve the demand perfectly well) but the latter is vaguely possible.
As @LSWR Cavalier points out, isn't the initial part of the Caernarfon -> Porthmadog trackbed used by the West Highland Railway, with a path/cycleway alongside?
Is there space for everything to run in parallel between Caernarfon and Dinas Junction?
Much of the trackbed between Caernarfon and Porthmadog is an excellent cycleway. The WHR links those places already, perhaps railcars could be run on that line which was reopened with millions in grants and donations.
Amlwch wouldn't need much work, the track is still there.
Caernarfon has been partly built on, but would be of considerable benefit and there's already an obvious train service to run there, too (extend the hourly Manchester-Bangor once that starts).
If you ask me I'd say the former is very unlikely (because buses on uncongested, mostly 60mph roads serve the demand perfectly well) but the latter is vaguely possible.
Amlwch is a rebuild apart from the structures I expect. Another one that has plenty of reports which can be dusted off and a new date put on the front.
Amlwch is a rebuild apart from the structures I expect. Another one that has plenty of reports which can be dusted off and a new date put on the front.
In some ways it's similar to EWR, but the thing about EWR is that it's turning a single track "branch" line into a double track 100mph mainline railway, whereas this would (in the very unlikely event of it happening) remain a low speed single-track branch.
In some ways it's similar to EWR, but the thing about EWR is that it's turning a single track "branch" line into a double track 100mph mainline railway, whereas this would (in the very unlikely event of it happening) remain a low speed single-track branch.
True. It'd also be a basket case that made the Conwy Valley look profitable, as Amlwch isn't a quaint tourist town, but rather a bit of a dive, and Llangefni isn't hugely better.
If you were going to rebuild a basket case branch line in North Wales you might as well put the Conwy Valley on stilts and be done with it, at least it has the tourist traffic.
The only sensible option is Bangor - Caernarfon, the other options are total basket cases that get a brief mention just before each election!
I do feel that Anglesey should have a kind of Parkway Station which all Holyhead trains should call at in an effort to reduce traffic to/from the mainland, Llanfair PG would be the obvious station to extend, but it looks as though the huge shopping area and car park adjacent to the station, that closed when Pringles/Edinburgh Woollen Mill went bust will reopen.
Just wondering about the two lines suggested in the TfW "speculative ideas" thing, namely:
- Reopen the Amlwch branch
- Reopen Bangor - Caernarfon - Porthmadog line
Just wondered how realistic either of those proposals were (let's just assume that we're only concerned with the practicalities of reintroducing services, not whether they're a good use of funds)?
Depends what the question is that's trying to be answered I guess.
If it's about "reconnecting isolated communities" or some other such slogan the Almwch would appear to tick more of those boxes. Whilst the formation "exists" it would be a full rebuild looking on Google Earth / Streetview.
In the case of Caernafon it would be a new build - and would terminate very much on the edge of town - somewhere around where Morrisons is - and then there's the question of whether it will be well used.
Currently there are 2 buses an hour taking about 30 mins to cover the journey, the train presumably with one stop would be something like 20 mins. The bus accepts Wales equivalent of the ENCTs bus pass which the train wouldn't. No doubt some will claim 'what about the tourist trade' - but nobody has yet given examples where a significant amount of tourist trade arrives by train (outside of London) and that's highly seasonal.
The only sensible option is Bangor - Caernarfon, the other options are total basket cases that get a brief mention just before each election!
I do feel that Anglesey should have a kind of Parkway Station which all Holyhead trains should call at in an effort to reduce traffic to/from the mainland, Llanfair PG would be the obvious station to extend, but it looks as though the huge shopping area and car park adjacent to the station, that closed when Pringles/Edinburgh Woollen Mill went bust will reopen.
The only sensible option is Bangor - Caernarfon, the other options are total basket cases that get a brief mention just before each election!
I do feel that Anglesey should have a kind of Parkway Station which all Holyhead trains should call at in an effort to reduce traffic to/from the mainland, Llanfair PG would be the obvious station to extend, but it looks as though the huge shopping area and car park adjacent to the station, that closed when Pringles/Edinburgh Woollen Mill went bust will reopen.
Couple of problems with that - firstly the junction from the A55 to access Llanfair PG is 4 miles up the road towards Holyhead.
Looking on Google it reckons you can drive from that junction to Bangor station in about 15 mins - where there is already ample parking and more services.
Are we not entering the realms of solutions looking for problems ?
That's exactly why I think it's a good idea. It'd also be a better place than Bangor to connect with Snowdon Sherpa buses to improve public transport use by tourists - you'd be able to cover almost all of the Park pretty well with just two routes to Betws, one via the Llanberis Pass and one via Rhyd Ddu and Nantgwynant. If you also added a Bangor-Ogwen Valley-Betws-Bala route that'd cover basically all of it.
How about some evidence that tourists will travel there by train ?
This was raised on (I think) the Okehampton thread, the argument that it will be attractive to / bring in the tourists, yet nobody could offer any examples demonstrating where it actually does.
How about some evidence that tourists will travel there by train ?
This was raised on (I think) the Okehampton thread, the argument that it will be attractive to / bring in the tourists, yet nobody could offer any examples demonstrating where it actually does.
How can you possibly know if tourists will travel somewhere by train if there isn't a train service and hasn't been one for over 50 years? You look for car journeys (of which there are loads) and people connecting there by bus (some) and extrapolate from there.
How can you possibly know if tourists will travel somewhere by train if there isn't a train service and hasn't been one for over 50 years? You look for car journeys (of which there are loads) and people connecting there by bus (some) and extrapolate from there.
Or you compare two similar 'tourist' destinations, one with and one without a rail link and see if one does better than the other.
The Lake District for example - there's no evidence Keswick (without a rail link but with a good bus link) is faring any worse than Windermere (which has a rail link).
In that sense Caernarfon is alot like Keswick - there's a decent railhead nearby with a decent bus service in place at the moment. So does spending somewhere in the region of £ 500m on a single line railway to Caernarfon make much sense ?
Or you compare two similar 'tourist' destinations, one with and one without a rail link and see if one does better than the other.
The Lake District for example - there's no evidence Keswick (without a rail link but with a good bus link) is faring any worse than Windermere (which has a rail link).
I would be unsurprised, though I don't have stats (do you?), if Windermere had a higher proportion of visitors by public transport than Keswick, to which most people probably drive. The purpose wouldn't be to attract more tourists, but rather to get them not to drive.
In that sense Caernarfon is alot like Keswick - there's a decent railhead nearby with a decent bus service in place at the moment. So does spending somewhere in the region of £ 500m on a single line railway to Caernarfon make much sense ?
If bus was properly integrated with rail and it was a decent* bus service, I'd agree - but the UK seems pathologically incapable of that. We briefly flirted with RailLinks but that went away.
North Wales's bus services are, by and large, very poor. The involvement of a certain German-owned turquoise-painted bus company (plus some small independents who really don't care if the money is coming in) is very much noted.
Could they be made better? Clearly they could, but I don't doubt that, in the UK, building about 6 miles of single-track railway and a station or two (the kind of which is well within the capability of whatever tin-pot preserved railway you can think of, let alone Network Rail who could probably do it quicker than rebuilding the Conwy Valley this year) is probably going to be a lot easier to achieve.
* A "decent bus service" does not just mean a frequent one. Go look at what Stagecoach are doing in the Lakes for the sort of thing you need to get tourists using it.
I would be unsurprised, though I don't have stats (do you?), if Windermere had a higher proportion of visitors by public transport than Keswick, to which most people probably drive. The purpose wouldn't be to attract more tourists, but rather to get them not to drive.
If bus was properly integrated with rail and it was a decent bus service, I'd agree - but the UK seems pathologically incapable of that. We briefly flirted with RailLinks but that went away.
North Wales's bus services are, by and large, very poor. The involvement of a certain German-owned turquoise-painted bus company (plus some small independents who really don't care if the money is coming in) is very much noted.
Could they be made better? Clearly they could, but I don't doubt that, in the UK, building about 6 miles of single-track railway and a station or two is probably going to be a lot easier to achieve.
The fact is there *is* a regular bus service between Caernarfon and Bangor, it clearly is fairly well used, because otherwise it wouldn't be so regular. And it's unlikely that tourist trade is going to be sufficient to make a rail reinstatement viable.
The fact is there *is* a regular bus service between Caernarfon and Bangor, it clearly is fairly well used, because otherwise it wouldn't be so regular. And it's unlikely that tourist trade is going to be sufficient to make a rail reinstatement viable.
I'd say Caernarfon is a much better bet for tourism than Okehampton, with the castle, WHR and surrounding tourist attractions, and there would be good potential for rail especially if they could get the track past the supermarket into a more central station. The charters on Borders Rail show what can be done with minimum extra infrastructure and a bit of imagination.
But is the train the answer ? It requires expensive infrastructure and the tourist trade is highly seasonal. And your personal prejudices about Arriva and indeed what bus networks should be like are your personal view, not an industry accepted one.
And I'm not sure Caernarfon is the tourist honeypot you're suggesting it is. For many of those who want to go walking or cycling in the area, they want to drive to near where they're going because carrying a load of luggage etc on a train is a faff. Similarly if you're staying in the Snowdonia National Park then chances are Caernarfon is nowhere near where you'll be staying.
The rail network needs to be reliable, well managed and cost-effective (from an operational perspective) - if it's not, then it ends up being a money pit which nobody wants to use.
But is the train the answer ? It requires expensive infrastructure and the tourist trade is highly seasonal. And your personal prejudices about Arriva and indeed what bus networks should be like are your personal view, not an industry accepted one.
I'd say Caernarfon is a much better bet for tourism than Okehampton, with the castle, WHR and surrounding tourist attractions, and there would be good potential for rail especially if they could get the track past the supermarket into a more central station. The charters on Borders Rail show what can be done with minimum extra infrastructure and a bit of imagination.
Don't bring Borders into this - that case was entirely different.
As I've pointed out many, many times, the issue for Borders was towns like Galashiels, Hawick etc were then put 30-40 miles away from the nearest rail station and even the road journey to the nearest main place was a long and difficult one. Caernarfon is 9 miles to Bangor and 30 mins by bus. Galashiels is over 30 miles to Edinburgh, the X95 takes 90 mins to cover that journey.
People are quick to point out the success of Borders Rail and claim it's a guarantee that other schemes will be similarly successful. The Robin Hood line is a good example - Mansfield once cited as the largest town without a station of over 100,000 people is only now nudging 400k use a year - Stamford, population 20,000 achieves a similar number.
The question is who would use the train to Bangor from Caernarfon ? Is it tourists ? then there's unlikely to be sufficient to make this worthwhile. Is it locals ? Is there the demand - bus pass holders won't move over because they would have to pay. Locals with a car ? Well, it's only 20 mins to drive to Bangor, so unless they live 'on top' of the station, it's going to be slower.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I think all the main operators have examples of good services - Stagecoach across Northants do a good job. Go Ahead in various areas have good operations. First seem to have turned a corner. And Arriva (despite your dislike of them) seem to have several areas where they have sustained a decent network running at sensible frequencies.
Perhaps if you think it's so easy, you should start a bus operation up and show us how easy it is and how it should be done, rather than just carping from the sidelines. Put your money (and alleged knowledge) where your mouth is.
The question is who would use the train to Bangor from Caernarfon ? Is it tourists ? then there's unlikely to be sufficient to make this worthwhile. Is it locals ? Is there the demand - bus pass holders won't move over because they would have to pay. Locals with a car ? Well, it's only 20 mins to drive to Bangor, so unless they live 'on top' of the station, it's going to be slower.
Tourists and locals. Like the Conwy Valley, rather than paying for parallel bus services it'd make sense to accept passes on the train. And not everyone has a pass.
Perhaps if you think it's so easy, you should start a bus operation up and show us how easy it is and how it should be done, rather than just carping from the sidelines. Put your money (and alleged knowledge) where your mouth is.
That only applies if you think commercial bus operation is the correct approach. The market, to me, is faulty to start with, as full integration is the aim and commercial bus operation precludes it.
Anyway, I do find that Stagecoach, Go-Ahead, Transdev and Wellglade manage to get the quality up there, and First and Arriva both generally don't. So if out of those 6, 4 get it right (or at least *more* right), that says something about the other two, doesn't it?
Frequency is not the only issue. Quality and presentation is important - "creating desire" - not just chucking out any old dented junk with drivers who think they're on a track day even if it is every 5 minutes. Also integration of ticketing and timetabling.
Frequency is not the only issue. Quality and presentation is important - "creating desire" - not just chucking out any old dented junk with drivers who think they're on a track day even if it is every 5 minutes. Also integration of ticketing and timetabling.
Quality and presentation wasn't exactly the strong suit of the NBC companies back in the day though. So having it "regulated" or "state run" doesn't deal with that.
I'd suggest some of Arriva's 'weaker' operations were weaker operations back in NBC days as well.
Quality and presentation wasn't exactly the strong suit of the NBC companies back in the day though. So having it "regulated" or "state run" doesn't deal with that.
I'd suggest some of Arriva's 'weaker' operations were weaker operations back in NBC days as well.
So what that's saying is that the UK is rubbish at buses and always will be. If that's the case, it's all the more reason to build the railway, because we're actually fairly good at that.
True. It'd also be a basket case that made the Conwy Valley look profitable, as Amlwch isn't a quaint tourist town, but rather a bit of a dive, and Llangefni isn't hugely better.
If you were going to rebuild a basket case branch line in North Wales you might as well put the Conwy Valley on stilts and be done with it, at least it has the tourist traffic.
As someone who grew up in Amlwch, I can tell you that it has the best fish-and-chips for, I don't know, three miles around. And the singing at the karoke nights at the Dinorben Arms has to be heard to be believed...
Don't bring Borders into this - that case was entirely different....... Is there the demand - bus pass holders won't move over because they would have to pay......
Sorry to bring the Borders route back to this. However, we were warned that the bus pass holders would not desert the "free" bus for the "pay" train. In practice many did (pre Covid at least) with the vast majority of pensioners travelling holding senior railcards (implying that they have "bought" into the railway).
Again, anecdotally at least, on the Borders trains that I worked pre Covid, appropriately ⅓ of all passengers had tickets to/from destinations beyond Edinburgh. I would assume that Caernarfon would draw a proportion of long distance travellers too.
RailUK was launched on 6th June 2005 - so we've hit 20 years being the UK's most popular railway community! Read more and celebrate this milestone with us in this thread!
