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IET's grounded - what would you run?

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py_megapixel

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I get that driver's tickets may have lapsed, but surely even after a year drivers will still retain the knowledge and competence to operate them if needs must?
The time limits on when a driver is considered competent on specific traction exist for a reason - safety. And as I understand it, once their competency has lapsed, they are simply not allowed to work that traction without first retaking the training course. Nothing can be done to change that.
 
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Aictos

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If this is likely to be a prolonged issue, then there will surely have to be flexibility on allowing redundant but useful HST sets to run on the LNER rather than sit idle?

I get that driver's tickets may have lapsed, but surely even after a year drivers will still retain the knowledge and competence to operate them if needs must?
Nope because drivers have to take assessments every 6 months on both route knowledge and traction competence, as the case is LNER stopped using their HSTs well over that 6 month period which means that the drivers competency to drive HSTs has expired and they are no longer able to drive them.

The only way that you get HSTs back with LNER is by retraining the fitters, guards and drivers which takes time and may not even be economically feasible if it's only for a brief few weeks.
 

C37

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It doesn't matter if the crews remember how to work them. After 6-months of not working them, their competency is officially lapsed. Nothing can be done to apply an exception as ultimatley safety comes first.

So drivers and guards alike would need to go through a retraining session that would be no quicker for staff who've worked them before, than staff who haven't, as well as the relevant maintenance staff and the facilities to be able to accomodate any need to service the HSTs further.

The process is far more complex.
How long would such a training process take? As I say, its a thought for if this is a prolonged problem, if the speed of refreshing training was faster than the time spent repairing faults then surely it would be an better option than having no trains?
After all we have seen in the last 15 months retired Doctors fast tracked back into the NHS to serve on the front line.
 

py_megapixel

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How long would such a training process take? As I say, its a thought for if this is a prolonged problem, if the speed of refreshing training was faster than the time spent repairing faults then surely it would be an better option than having no trains?
As a long-term measure yes - but it's not something that can be done at short notice.
 

Clansman

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How long would such a training process take? As I say, its a thought for if this is a prolonged problem, if the speed of refreshing training was faster than the time spent repairing faults then surely it would be an better option than having no trains?
After all we have seen in the last 15 months retired Doctors fast tracked back into the NHS to serve on the front line.
For guards I know it's a day or two, but for drivers it's longer I think.

Like the above post, it's possible doable in the long term. But only if the problem is long term, and only if the will is there to go through the work required to do it.
 
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HSTEd

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In this situation we should probably prioritise getting people where they need to go, rather than running fast timetables or what not.

So put the affected corridors on a simple all-stops timetable run at the highest possible intensity with whatever stock is available
 

py_megapixel

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I think the answer to the question "what would you run" is actually pretty simple. Buses.

You can speculate as much as you want about reallocating withdrawn stock and clever timetable adjustments, but ultimately that's a lot of hassle and cost for the TOC - almost certainly more than just paying for road transport.
 

JonathanH

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I think the answer to the question "what would you run" is actually pretty simple. Buses.

You can speculate as much as you want about reallocating withdrawn stock and clever timetable adjustments, but ultimately that's a lot of hassle and cost for the TOC - almost certainly more than just paying for road transport.
Or just 'DIY' diversions / passengers taking alternative routes where possible. LNER are not the only operator at any of their stations although I appreciate that some station pairs involve a large diversion. Much of the GWR network , but admittedly not all, has alternative services.

For many discretionary journeys, it seems reasonable to offer travel on another day.
 
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peperami97

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So all those nice Power Cars at Ely cant get out to help, because the staff dont hold the competencies. Would the crews from the measuring train and/or the pullman be allowed if they signed the route ?
 

Bletchleyite

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I think the answer to the question "what would you run" is actually pretty simple. Buses.

You can speculate as much as you want about reallocating withdrawn stock and clever timetable adjustments, but ultimately that's a lot of hassle and cost for the TOC - almost certainly more than just paying for road transport.

Though they're not even doing that.

Capacity could be an issue (particularly with COVID), so I think a sensible plan would be to get buses in and run them on a very unattractive timetable, i.e. all mainline stations (but frequent), and only as far as Reading/Didcot for connections on TfL Rail etc rather than all the way. And still offer (and encourage) tickets to be reused on other days, full refunds etc. Perhaps they could even consider offering more than a refund, e.g. a refund plus a free journey voucher as a real enticement.

For LNER, the same, but run the buses to Peterborough for GA, for example, or even spread it out by running to e.g. Northampton and paying LNR to rustle up some 12 car sets.

So you're offering something so people aren't fully stranded, but it's unattractive so people are more likely to refund or reschedule.
 

D365

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So all those nice Power Cars at Ely cant get out to help, because the staff dont hold the competencies. Would the crews from the measuring train and/or the pullman be allowed if they signed the route ?
Even if the staff were suitably trained; where do you source serviceable coaching stock at short notice?
 

RobShipway

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Or just 'DIY' diversions / passengers taking alternative routes where possible. LNER are not the only operator at any of their stations although I appreciate that some station pairs involve a large diversion.
Buses are fine at weekends, but the bus companies that maybe running the substitute services will need those buses Monday to Friday for the local bus services that they would be used on normally. Hence, why Train Operators need to think what stock that they have got and what train stock that their staff can use/operate to take passengers on, so that a near as normal service can be provided while the issue with the class 8xx units is resolved.
 

HST43257

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Get as many 68s in on Scarborough turns (1 diagram is 185s normally)
Some double 185s can be single 185s to cover Liverpool to Newcastle

LNER
Voyagers cover services north of York
Cleared Azumas doing London to York and Leeds (1tph each) - 91s acting as backup
365s doing London to Peterborough extras

GWR
2tph 387 London to Didcot (or beyond if cleared)
Turbos and Castle HSTs covering everything that isn’t possible for 387s to operate
 

JonathanH

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Buses are fine at weekends, but the bus companies that maybe running the substitute services will need those buses Monday to Friday for the local bus services that they would be used on normally. Hence, why Train Operators need to think what stock that they have got and what train stock that their staff can use/operate to take passengers on, so that a near as normal service can be provided while the issue with the class 8xx units is resolved.
No they don't. They just need to tell people to restrict travel to what is absolutely necessary for this period and use alternative routes where possible.
 

RobShipway

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TPE
Get as many 68s in on Scarborough turns (1 diagram is 185s normally)
Some double 185s can be single 185s to cover Liverpool to Newcastle

LNER
Voyagers cover services north of York
Cleared Azumas doing London to York and Leeds (1tph each) - 91s acting as backup
365s doing London to Peterborough extras

GWR
2tph 387 London to Didcot (or beyond if cleared)
Turbos and Castle HSTs covering everything that isn’t possible for 387s to operate
What drivers/staff will get you get to operate the Class 365's?
No they don't. They just need to tell people to restrict travel to what is absolutely necessary for this period and use alternative routes where possible.
They need to do that as well.
 

Bletchleyite

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Get as many 68s in on Scarborough turns (1 diagram is 185s normally)
Some double 185s can be single 185s to cover Liverpool to Newcastle

Agree with this. Also offer fee-free refunds and validity on another day to try to encourage people to choose that to reduce the overcrowding given the COVID context.

There may also be the option for TPE to bustitute branches, and possibly run South TPE from Sheffield only rather than to Manchester Airport as there are plenty of connections. That would free up a few 185s.
 

JonathanH

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Get as many 68s in on Scarborough turns (1 diagram is 185s normally)
Some double 185s can be single 185s to cover Liverpool to Newcastle
There is likely to be a good reason related to traincrew knowledge, servicing requirements and availability as to why that Scarborough diagram is 185s.
 

HST43257

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There is likely to be a good reason related to traincrew knowledge, servicing requirements and availability as to why that Scarborough diagram is 185s.
Surely you can just make that 1tpd extra or something?

What drivers/staff will get you get to operate the Class 365's?
GN, the key is ticket acceptance

Agree with this. Also offer fee-free refunds and validity on another day to try to encourage people to choose that to reduce the overcrowding given the COVID context.

There may also be the option for TPE to bustitute branches, and possibly run South TPE from Sheffield only rather than to Manchester Airport as there are plenty of connections. That would free up a few 185s.
Just 3 car Hulls and some 3 cars on Cleethorpes + Redcar should do
 

HST43257

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The concern at the moment would I guess be that regional TOCs may not allow that because it might cause COVID related issues for them?
Could just use LNER reservation system to make sure only a certain amount can board.

anyway, it’s better than no extras surely
 

peperami97

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Even if the staff were suitably trained; where do you source serviceable coaching stock at short notice?
There is some coaching stock there. Do they have problems other than the disability access ? Genuine question as an enthusiast who just loves seeing anything running on rails and other than the very basics doesnt understand much.

Issues like the disability requirements can be suspended quite quickly if the need arises. Obviously not anything safety critical.

I dont for one minute think a national reserve of rolling stock works in anyway in the privatised railway, and almost certainly not in a nationalised railway. I assume they have contingency plans in place involving other measures. Its amazing what can be achieved when required that people say is impossible. I was classified as a key national infrastructure worker during the pandemic and we managed quite a lot of 'impossible' things.
 

Bletchleyite

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Could just use LNER reservation system to make sure only a certain amount can board.

A bit hard to set that up at short notice. And it might disadvantage the regulars.

It's also basically unenforceable except at the tiny number of stations where ticket barrier checks are done for individual trains.
 

JonathanH

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Issues like the disability requirements can be suspended quite quickly if the need arises. Obviously not anything safety critical.
Not really. If it is reasonable to say tell people of reduced mobility that they can't travel, it is reasonable to say tell people of able mobility that they can't travel as well. You can't legitimately suspend the PRM requirements.
 

RobShipway

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Surely you can just make that 1tpd extra or something?


GN, the key is ticket acceptance


Just 3 car Hulls and some 3 cars on Cleethorpes + Redcar should do
Most GN drivers at the moment are diving class 387 units, some of which have been brought over from the lack of needing some many to do Gatwick Express services. I would imagine that customers would have to be using existing GN services to Peterborough, rather than having to bring in extra or having to ask staff to do overtime with doing extra services with running class 365's.
 

Wolfie

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Get as many 68s in on Scarborough turns (1 diagram is 185s normally)
Some double 185s can be single 185s to cover Liverpool to Newcastle

LNER
Voyagers cover services north of York
Cleared Azumas doing London to York and Leeds (1tph each) - 91s acting as backup
365s doing London to Peterborough extras

GWR
2tph 387 London to Didcot (or beyond if cleared)
Turbos and Castle HSTs covering everything that isn’t possible for 387s to operate
Where are the Voyagers coming from? XC not a chance and if you take them from Avanti you screw the WCML too. Are they even cleared for the ECML?
 

JonathanH

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Where are the Voyagers coming from? XC not a chance and if you take them from Avanti you screw the WCML too. Are they even cleared for the ECML?
I think the suggestion is that you simply tell LNER passengers north of York to catch the existing XC services (and only travel if absolutely necessary).
 

Wolfie

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Not really. If it is reasonable to say tell people of reduced mobility that they can't travel, it is reasonable to say tell people of able mobility that they can't travel as well. You can't legitimately suspend the PRM requirements.
Absolutely. To do otherwise is basically telling people who need adjustments that they are second class citizens.

I think the suggestion is that you simply tell LNER passengers north of York to catch the existing XC services (and only travel if absolutely necessary).
Ah, ok.

The concern at the moment would I guess be that regional TOCs may not allow that because it might cause COVID related issues for them?
Quite likely.
 

C37

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Forgive my ignorance, but what are the safety critical factors that prevent someone with years of experience going up and down the ECML in HSTs from jumping in a cab and doing it again?

Is it not as simple as moving a handle to make the train move forward, pressing a brake when they get to a station and stopping when they see a red light?
 

RobShipway

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Forgive my ignorance, but what are the safety critical factors that prevent someone with years of experience going up and down the ECML in HSTs from jumping in a cab and doing it again?

Is it not as simple as moving a handle to make the train move forward, pressing a brake when they get to a station and stopping when they see a red light?
Let me ask you this question, would you like an airline pilot to fly a plane that you are travelling on when he has not flown that plane in a year and has not looked at any manual on the plane that you flying on in that time? I am guessing that the answer is no. Well, it is much the same for train drivers. Most of the LNER drivers would not have driven a class 43 in over a year. Most people's memory of things that they have done in the last month or how to be using things that they have not used in six months in my experience is usually pretty poor in being able to operate something appropriate.
 

paul1609

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Apparently Easyjet are to introduce a half hourly 737 service from Luton to Edinburgh and hourly to newcastle to help out stranded rail passengers ;)
 
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