IET's grounded - what would you run?

[lxfe_mxtterz]

I'm sure you could get several people sitting on the bed at least in the single berth compartments...

Made me chuckle!

 

[JonathanH]

Don't the Mid Norfolk Railway have the ex-GA mk3s? Could you use them with hired in 57s and crew trained on the Night Riviera?

It is unlikely that the ex-GA mk3s are still authorised for use on the national network - they certainly won't have been maintained in the same way they were when they were part of the operational fleet over a year ago.

There really is a need to recognise that any outlandish short term rolling stock substitution is just not going to happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There really is a need to recognise that any outlandish short term rolling stock substitution is just not going to happen.

Despite the fact that outlandish short term rolling stock substitutions have happened even in the recent past?

 

[RobShipway]

Despite the fact that outlandish short term rolling stock substitutions have happened even in the recent past?

If you mean the likes of the Pretendalino (i.e. Class 90 and Mk3 stock) to fill in on Pendolino services or an HST set with five carriages replacing a class 180 unit while it was having a yearly service, then those are trains that could keep to the timings of the trains that they replaced. However, if you mean a class 180 in place of a class 143 pacer doing a stopping service then yes I would call that outlandish.

I could have used in my ideas on how to be running GWR, that the class 90 and MK4 sets painted in Grand Central colours be used on services between London Paddington and Cardiff. But a) Who would be certified to drive a class 90 as a passenger on the GWML and b) how would you arrange for the class 90 to be reconnected to the other end of the MK4 coaches within the existing timetable, so that it could haul the MK4 coaches back.

 

[py_megapixel]

On the contrary, there are people here that are suggesting that driver's have such little memory capacity that a year after last having driven a HST they would have forgotten how to do so. Just not buying that.

It doesn't matter if they've forgotten how to do so. This is a case of whether, officially, they are certified as competent to operate that class of rolling stock.

In any case, would you be happy on a flight, if the originally scheduled aircraft was a 737, it was swapped for an A320, and the pilot said "I've not flown an A320 since last year, but I think I know what all the buttons do"? Because that seems to be analagous to what you're advocating here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In any case, would you be happy on a flight, if the originally scheduled aircraft was a 737, it was swapped for an A320, and the pilot said "I've not flown an A320 since last year, but I think I know what all the buttons do"? Because that seems to be analagous to what you're advocating here.

I seem to recall it's actually even stricter with planes. Traincrew can sign more than one type of unit or loco if they are competent on them. Whereas pilots are normally only type certified on one type of commercial aircraft at a time, as if you're certified on and frequently fly more than one there is the potential for confusion, and that itself could be deadly.

 

[C37]

It doesn't matter if they've forgotten how to do so. This is a case of whether, officially, they are certified as competent to operate that class of rolling stock.

In any case, would you be happy on a flight, if the originally scheduled aircraft was a 737, it was swapped for an A320, and the pilot said "I've not flown an A320 since last year, but I think I know what all the buttons do"? Because that seems to be analagous to what you're advocating here.

I have already answered that question, in the case of a plane, probably no.
I just don't think that a train is 'analagous' to an airliner; a pilot controls the direction of travel up, down, port and starboard, between altitudes of 0ft and 30,000ft. A train driver either goes forward or backwards in the direction determined by the rails.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I have already answered that question, in the case of a plane, probably no.
I just don't think that a train is 'analagous' to an airliner; a pilot controls the direction of travel up, down, port and starboard, between altitudes of 0ft and 30,000ft. A train driver either goes forward or backwards in the direction determined by the rails.

The driver still has to stop the thing -
what if he encounters a failure of the brakes and has forgotten the various fault finding to deal with the issue on an HST running along at 125mph and approaching a speed restriction. Cue derailed run away train.

 

[C37]

The driver still has to stop the thing -
what if he encounters a failure of the brakes and has forgotten the various fault finding to deal with the issue on an HST running along at 125mph and approaching a speed restriction. Cue derailed run away train.

Are former HST drivers particularly prone to forgetfulness or something?
Its difficult to believe that a driver who has spent a career buzzing up and down the ECML in HSTs and who has continued driving the route in other vehicles, will, within a couple of years, have forgotten how to safely drive.

 

[Annetts key]

Driving a car is just putting your life at risk, driving a train or flying a plane is putting hundreds of people's lives at risk, hence the need for certification on a yearly basis.

Err, no. For people of my age and older, having passed a driving test in a manual gearbox car. Even if we have not driven a mini-bus for however long, as long as we get the appropriate insurance, we can jump in a 12 seater mini-bus and take passengers for a ride as long as the money from the passengers does not exceed the cost of fuel. Even if for the past ten years we have driven an automatic car, and the mini-bus is a manual gearbox.

And there are engineering staff working on safety critical systems that can go for far more than a year between working on equipment without having to be re-trained or re-certified.

However, the temporary relaxation of the rules/regulations/operating procedures would have to be put to the ORR and they would have to agree to the proposed temporary arrangements.

 

[Domh245]

Despite the fact that outlandish short term rolling stock substitutions have happened even in the recent past?

I can't really remember (m)any other than the 365s to Scotrail, though they were in service for a year - so not exactly short. There's been some "stays of execution" with pacers and the like, but those aren't substitutions

 

[Annetts key]

Well, apart from the fact that it's against all of the rules, who would be legally liable in the event of an incident arising as a result? If any such proposal arose, which it wouldn't as the TOCs would know that they'd be crucified and insurers wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole, ASLEF would doubtless take action due to non-compliance with the Health & Safety at Work Act.

The H&S act primarily requires that a suitable risk assessment is made.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Are former HST drivers particularly prone to forgetfulness or something?
Its difficult to believe that a driver who has spent a career buzzing up and down the ECML in HSTs and who has continued driving the route in other vehicles, will, within a couple of years, have forgotten how to safely drive.

No all drivers who have not driven a particular type of stock for over 6 months on the railway are treated the same. To ignore this would breach all sorts of H&S requirements.

 

[C37]

The H&S act primarily requires that a suitable risk assessment is made.

As I understand risk is determined by Liklihood x Consequence.

Yes the consequence of HST driver forgetting how to drive would be high, the liklihood is going to be pretty low, I would have thought.

 

[Domh245]

Are former HST drivers particularly prone to forgetfulness or something?
Its difficult to believe that a driver who has spent a career buzzing up and down the ECML in HSTs and who has continued driving the route in other vehicles, will, within a couple of years, have forgotten how to safely drive.

It isn't about the ability of individual drivers to remember the minutiae of operating the things, but purely about them being assessed competent to operate them.

That all rather ignores the points that many of the Mk3s have been scrapped, and those that haven't (the ex-LNER sets particularly) will each require weeks of work to get operational again (see EMR's attempted introduction of ex-LNER sets) and aren't PRM-TSI compliant

 

[Aictos]

I could have used in my ideas on how to be running GWR, that the class 90 and MK4 sets painted in Grand Central colours be used on services between London Paddington and Cardiff. But a) Who would be certified to drive a class 90 as a passenger on the GWML and b) how would you arrange for the class 90 to be reconnected to the other end of the MK4 coaches within the existing timetable, so that it could haul the MK4 coaches back.

There are such railway vehicles known as Driving Can Trailers (DVT) that have been proven to work with Class 90s.

Indeed when LNER hired in some to work the Leeds services a few years ago, they had the loco at one end of the train and the dvt at the other end, no need to operate train with Class 90 at both ends or have runaround facilities.

 

[greatvoyager]

That all rather ignores the points that many of the Mk3s have been scrapped, and those that haven't (the ex-LNER sets particularly) will each require weeks of work to get operational again (see EMR's attempted introduction of ex-LNER sets) and aren't PRM-TSI compliant

My thoughts exactly.

 

[43096]

No because GWR hasn't got a HST safety case for routes into Paddington, and the train crew don't sign them

Gibber. Exeter (and further west) crews do sign both the HST traction and the route.

 

[C37]

It isn't about the ability of individual drivers to remember the minutiae of operating the things, but purely about them being assessed competent to operate them.

That all rather ignores the points that many of the Mk3s have been scrapped, and those that haven't (the ex-LNER sets particularly) will each require weeks of work to get operational again (see EMR's attempted introduction of ex-LNER sets) and aren't PRM-TSI compliant

Thanks, for your response.
I think I mentioned earlier, how the NHS fast tracked former medical staff back into service.
If needs must, realistically, how difficult would it be for an experienced former driver to demonstrate competence?
As regards the stock, as recently as 6 weeks ago, MK3 sets were flying up and down the MML at full speed, where has that stock gone?

 

[43096]

GWR crews that know the route, would need re - training on class 43 units to drive the Blue Pullman as many of the drivers have not driven class 43 power cars in years. That would longer than it would take to fix the class 8xxx units.

And your expertise on this is what, precisely? Good to know that you alone know how long it will take to fix the 80x fleet...

It isn't about the ability of individual drivers to remember the minutiae of operating the things, but purely about them being assessed competent to operate them.

That all rather ignores the points that many of the Mk3s have been scrapped, and those that haven't (the ex-LNER sets particularly) will each require weeks of work to get operational again (see EMR's attempted introduction of ex-LNER sets) and aren't PRM-TSI compliant

I rather think PRM-TSI compliance is going to be the least of the issues (to the point of being waived) if it is absolutely essential to use non-compliant trains.

 

[Annetts key]

I seem to recall it's actually even stricter with planes. Traincrew can sign more than one type of unit or loco if they are competent on them. Whereas pilots are normally only type certified on one type of commercial aircraft at a time, as if you're certified on and frequently fly more than one there is the potential for confusion, and that itself could be deadly.

You could however argue that modern aircraft are far less standardised compared to locomotives, DMUs, EMUs etc. As there have been numerous crashes caused by the crew making mistakes because of the very different auto-throttle, auto-pilot and other complex systems that these aircraft have.

And aircraft have very different handling between different types.

Of course, each locomotive, DMU, EMU etc. class is different. But they don’t have auto-throttle, auto-pilot etc. The driver is always in control.

For the first day, maybe longer, of driving a locomotive, DMU, EMU etc. that they have nor driven for a year, the driver would definitely need to have a driving inspector in with him/her. And have to drive defensively.

Plus as I said above, it would have to be agreed with the ORR.

 

[christopher]

Has anyone suggested loco hauled 442s yet?

 

[Hey 3]

Has anyone suggested loco hauled 442s yet?

Why?

 

[popeter45]

Thanks, for your response.
I think I mentioned earlier, how the NHS fast tracked former medical staff back into service.
If needs must, realistically, how difficult would it be for an experienced former driver to demonstrate competence?
As regards the stock, as recently as 6 weeks ago, MK3 sets were flying up and down the MML at full speed, where has that stock gone?

running high speed trains isnt as life or death as the NHS covid responce was so thats a irelevant point
and driving a train isnt just knowing the controls, its knowing the route, signals placements with relevance to the seating position, acelation/decelration points et

 

[Ianno87]

Why?

Long-running forum joke, as apparently the solution to anything and everything.

 

[C37]

running high speed trains isnt as life or death as the NHS covid responce was so thats a irelevant point
and driving a train isnt just knowing the controls, its knowing the route, signals placements with relevance to the seating position, acelation/decelration points et

If the NHS can fast track retired medics onto the front line, then there must be a way of ex HST drivers showing competence. This really isn't brain surgery.
And if those former HST drivers still work on the ECML, then the signal placements bla bla bla problem is solved too

 

[Ianno87]

And if those former HST drivers still work on the ECML, then the signal placements bla bla bla problem is solved too

Amingst other things, King's Cross throat has just been extensively remodelled and resignalled.

 

[RobShipway]

Err, no. For people of my age and older, having passed a driving test in a manual gearbox car. Even if we have not driven a mini-bus for however long, as long as we get the appropriate insurance, we can jump in a 12 seater mini-bus and take passengers for a ride as long as the money from the passengers does not exceed the cost of fuel. Even if for the past ten years we have driven an automatic car, and the mini-bus is a manual gearbox.

And there are engineering staff working on safety critical systems that can go for far more than a year between working on equipment without having to be re-trained or re-certified.

However, the temporary relaxation of the rules/regulations/operating procedures would have to be put to the ORR and they would have to agree to the proposed temporary arrangements.

Being someone in their early 50's, who has driven 18 seat minibuses from time to time taking people from A to B I understand your point well.

With the staff working on safety critical systems that can go for far more than a year between working on equipment without having to be re-trained or re-certified, they are not driving a train or coach that is taking members of the public and that is the difference.

And your expertise on this is what, precisely? Good to know that you alone know how long it will take to fix the 80x fleet...


I rather think PRM-TSI compliance is going to be the least of the issues (to the point of being waived) if it is absolutely essential to use non-compliant trains.

My experience is having spent many months learning and being certified to drive class 117 on the Swanage Railway back in the early 1990's. I had to be re - certified by the safety boards at the time on a yearly basis, which at times took most of the winter period before the railway started again the next Easter. This was as well, as doing my actual job at the time as a Computer Operator for a local building society doing anything from 8 - 12 hour shifts ether through the day or through the night. Given the time, each time it would take for me to be certified I would expect that drivers on mainline trains, that it would possibly take twice as long.

 

[popeter45]

If the NHS can fast track retired medics onto the front line, then there must be a way of ex HST drivers showing competence. This really isn't brain surgery.
And if those former HST drivers still work on the ECML, then the signal placements bla bla bla problem is solved too

are you just a troll now?, explain how lives will be lost if we dont run HST's right now?

 

[Domh245]

Thanks, for your response.
I think I mentioned earlier, how the NHS fast tracked former medical staff back into service.
If needs must, realistically, how difficult would it be for an experienced former driver to demonstrate competence?
As regards the stock, as recently as 6 weeks ago, MK3 sets were flying up and down the MML at full speed, where has that stock gone?

I remember a lot of hubbub about retired healthcare staff being brought back, but I also remember there being a lot of talk about them willing to go back but not actually being needed/getting stuck doing online training courses about radicalisation before going back onto the front line. It struck me very much as an optics story, but not one that materially made a difference

A driver could probably prove competence relatively easily, but it's having the system for them to prove their competence in place that would be the trickier part. Plus of course, it's not just the drivers, but maintenance staff (if they can catch a break between inspecting welds), guards, platform staff, etc.

If push came to shove then I'm sure they could reintroduce HSTs from a competency/training aspect, but the situation would have to get pretty dire for that to be the case

As for the stock itself - per this post only 5 ex-LNER sets made it into traffic with EMR, 3 of which are still in traffic (for 2 diagrams) with the other 2 sets stored at Ely & Neville Hill. The Neville Hill set was due to move to Ely but I suspect they might hold tight on it for now! From next weekend all 5 sets would be available to press into service (assuming that they aren't also being ran into the ground) which does make it feel like it'd have to be a real "last roll of the dice" to consider their introduction

I rather think PRM-TSI compliance is going to be the least of the issues (to the point of being waived) if it is absolutely essential to use non-compliant trains.

Oh, it's definitely the least of the issues, but between the (some would argue rightful) pig-headedness of the DfT on the matter of PRM-TSI, the poor-optics, and the fact that we've still got a zombie industry being propped up by Westminster which is generally advising people not to travel, it won't be the first option they turn to