Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

[Domh245]

I bet a number of the Leasing and Spot Hire Co's are kicking themselves today - Porterbrook and the ex Chiltern Mk3s, ROG for letting go of the 47s, Eversholt for the 321 scrapping etc. A lot of companies and groups have been contacted today.

They might be kicking themselves, but then again storage isn't free and fleet groundings are (fortunately) not all that common!

 

[800001]

Might be talking rubbish but is there any possibility of these trains being checked today, running for a weeks and then forming cracks in the future?

Yes

 

[43096]

Might be talking rubbish but is there any possibility of these trains being checked today, running for a weeks and then forming cracks in the future?

Absolutely there is. It's fatigue related which increases with time/mileage. So Hitachi will need to fix the entire fleet, including those that are not (yet) stopped.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

It‘s always easy for staff to accidentally use internal jargon like that, just like you introduced CSL2…

Oops!
Customer Service Level 2 - enhanced messaging and allows for alternative routes/TOCs to be asked for a bit easier.

 

[matacaster]

Seemingly a common factor here between these trains, 158s and another class I can't remember is the use of an aluminium monocoque structure and then attaching heavy steel items to it. It appears that they don't allow sufficient area of attachment and the aluminium perhaps flexes with stress until it fails somewhat more quickly than a steel bodied train. Suspect greater surface area of contact and use of stiffening ribs on aluminium body where there is contact between such surfaces. 158s yaw dampers had similar issues early on as far as I remember.

 

[swt_passenger]

Oops!
Customer Service Level 2 - enhanced messaging and allows for alternative routes/TOCs to be asked for a bit easier.

- glad you weren’t annoyed!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yaw dampers

I thought that CAF would not be the only one to suffer from that.

 

[AdamWW]

I heard Northern's CAF units - which are also experiencing cracks, with about 20 out of service currently - are being regularly inspected to catch this if it happens, so presumably something similar here?

Rather hard to imagine they'd do one inspection, say "That's all right then" and then never look again....

 

[Annetts key]

Train plan for Skeleton service and continuing use of alternative traction is being fleshed out at GWR.

HSTs will not feature on long distance services. For a variety of good reasons. They may make appearances on services that would be IET operated within their normal spheres of operation.

I think you need to rephrase that, considering where the Castle class go in the current timetable...
And where the CrossCountry HSTs go...

 

[Ianno87]

I think you need to rephrase that, considering where the Castle class go the the current timetable...

I presume what @JN114 means by "long distance" is the "Long Distance High speed" service groups, I.e. to/from Paddington.

 

[JonathanH]

I bet a number of the Leasing and Spot Hire Co's are kicking themselves today - Porterbrook and the ex Chiltern Mk3s, ROG for letting go of the 47s, Eversholt for the 321 scrapping etc. A lot of companies and groups have been contacted today.

No. As has been noted a number of times, none of the stock you list would be suitable for substitute use.

 

[73128]

Were there many people on the train. I'm due to go from Paddington to Radley tomorrow but don't want to travel if the train will be packed.

Not on the class 387 fast today (but i did see a packed 5 car Swansea (1148 from London I think). Note SO down connections at Didcot are tenuous but were being held locally.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 May 2021 ==

There hasn't been a GNER live alert since 2007

I gather a small number of 91+Mk4 sets are being brought online today but the majority will need checks before they can be taken back into service as they've been sat around for some time.

(Original) HSTs are not allowed to run anywhere other than the MML as that's the only route for which they still have a derogation from accessibility rules, and someone posted upthread that the castle class aren't cleared into Paddington.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 May 2021 ==


I don't think they have much room on the Exeter/Bristol route, and Reading-Paddington is still getting service via 387s.

There are engineering works between Salisbury and Exeter!!

 

[fgwrich]

No. As has been noted a number of times, none of the stock you list would be suitable for substitute use.

You say that, but I know of a number of operators of Mk3s who have been asked this afternoon. ROG do happen to own a number of fairly compliant (ex GA) Mk3s themselves, but lack the ETH fitted locos (barring the 3 57s hired from DRS). It might not be ideal, but it's better than nothing.

 

[73128]

There hasn't been a GNER live alert since 2007

I gather a small number of 91+Mk4 sets are being brought online today but the majority will need checks before they can be taken back into service as they've been sat around for some time.

(Original) HSTs are not allowed to run anywhere other than the MML as that's the only route for which they still have a derogation from accessibility rules, and someone posted upthread that the castle class aren't cleared into Paddington.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 May 2021 ==


I don't think they have much room on the Exeter/Bristol route, and Reading-Paddington is still getting service via 387s.

There are engineering works between Salisbury and Exeter!!

I'm not sure this is relevant at all ? I know bimode trains are new to the UK, but still, what a weird question to think of.
And surely the trains were designed with that in mind ?

GWR driver I spoke to today suggested that switching to having heavier bi-modes instead of electric sets might have been part of the problem.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 May 2021 ==

GWR are, as stated earlier running a shuttle 387 service between Didcot and Paddington, was just on it, showing off the 110mph capability- great run! Paddington is eerie, 387s and 345s only, and not many of them. We did pass a 80x between Didcot and Reading so it does look like at least some are in service...

they often do that if Didcot to Oxford is closed for engineering works. There are also some peak hour services (e.g. 1643 from Paddington) non stop to Reading.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 May 2021 ==

i can see them after passing the check basically being thrown onto routes which cover most stops likely why the Swansea service is the first as covers the most of the gwml and south wales main line bar the occasional service to Carmarthen hopefully this issue is resolved soon but is a little worrying such new trains have these issues

the Swanseas do seem to be largely back, but it would help if they stopped additionally at Didcot which has almost no service westwards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 May 2021 ==

Whilst I think many people are doing their absolute best at keeping as many people as they can moving it’s a real shame that we have already got reports of ....

*refunds being refused because the train was reinstated and people were told not to travel

*tickets being rejected on alternative operators services despite it being an official alternative.

*lots of people being charged admin fees.

*passengers being told to use delay repay when they don’t travel (cracking fraud case coming up in September 2022, I look forward to the thread)

* passengers told that they must have a new seat reservation or they can’t travel, then the actual trains that run being a free for all

*passengers thrown off at random stations due to overcrowding

* people made to surrender their advance singles and buy SVRs for a service 2 hours later. Then having their refund on their original train rejected.

It’s a real shame that these sorts of issues (which are nearly all resolved with a fight) do seem to crop up every single time there is disruption anywhere.

little wonder passengers get angry.

are you talking about LNER (or others)?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 May 2021 ==

Hmmm.

I always assumed that the mixed livery rakes that have appeared during livery changes were due to coaches being swapped between sets. Maybe I'm wrong and they painted/vinyled coaches one at a time in random order.

But that doesn't explain the GWR HSTs I've travelled on with wrong coach lettering even to the extent (more than once) of a declassified 1st class coach in the middle of standard class, or (going back a few years admittedly) rakes with a TGS at each end.

Or last year an Anglia loco hauled train with a random quiet coach in the middle as well as in the usual place at the end.

Putting it another way - if, say, 20% of the coaches were unavailable, what would prevent them from making up as many usable rakes as possible out of what was left?

GWR would remarshal sets overnight to replace failed coaches.

 

[Deepgreen]

I suspect most passengers would guess from the name that it's a very-not-good thing. Which would be pretty accurate.

Or would they? I would imagine laymen would see 'Code Red' as more alarming, given its meaning in many other scenarios. For example, 'in the black' means a surplus of money, as opposed to 'in the red'.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 May 2021 ==

You say that, but I know of a number of operators of Mk3s who have been asked this afternoon. ROG do happen to own a number of fairly compliant (ex GA) Mk3s themselves, but lack the ETH fitted locos (barring the 3 57s hired from DRS). It might not be ideal, but it's better than nothing.

Lamentably, the railway has become so inflexible (sorry, 'efficient') that it's easier and cheaper to run nothing, than the 'wrong sort of train'!

 

[Sleepy]

Presumably other IET services have the sleeper for any essential passengers?

Sadly the Sleeper doesn't run on Saturday's.

 

[Reliablebeam]

As it happens my journey today took me through Kings Cross (and onto another 387) - there were two 80x's in the platform and powered up, one LNER and another Hull Trains.

 

[Deepgreen]

Just like people give up driving after the first time a road is closed by a crash. That is to say it does not happen.

I'm afraid, where people have any choice, they are hugely more likely to abandon rail travel after experiencing major problems than they are to do so with road travel. It's to do with the psychology of being in control - even if a road is closed by a crash, they're in their own cars when delayed, and feel they have a modicum of control of their own destinies.

 

[millemille]

It might not be ideal, but it's better than nothing.

That's the first slice of the swiss cheese gone through....

 

[D365]

I bet a number of the Leasing and Spot Hire Co's are kicking themselves today - Porterbrook and the ex Chiltern Mk3s, ROG for letting go of the 47s, Eversholt for the 321 scrapping etc. A lot of companies and groups have been contacted today.

Really? I would have thought the more pressing concern would be finding sufficiently trained drivers.

 

[millemille]

I'm afraid, where people have any choice, they are hugely more likely to abandon rail travel after experiencing major problems than they are to do so with road travel. It's to do with the psychology of being in control - even if a road is closed by a crash, they're in their own cars when delayed, and feel they have a modicum of control of their own destinies.

You are absolutely right I, even as a nigh on 30 year railwayman, feel exactly this.

One point to note - not aimed at anyone in particular - is that the railway cannot consider societal risk when making decisions about stopping fleets. This has been accepted in law for over 20 years now following a case brought against an operator in the mid 90's following the grounding of a fleet and a member of the public who would have normally been on one of the trains which were grounded driving their car by way of a replacement and being seriously injured in an RTC.

 

[86206]

Yeah that's one of them.

Definite a set or two in Worcester at the moment as passed them under rail bridge. Going nowhere fast

 

[ikcdab]

These trains weren't meant for the old victorian infrastructure.

This really is the most daft comment. Our railway infrastructure is not victorian... Virtually everything has been renewed or upgraded.
It's like saying that my modern car isn't designed for these Roman roads we drive along...

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Hearing more and more rumours of stock being hired in, latest one is:
“LSL
WCRC
PULLMAN
Are all supplying additional train coaches for FGW, LNER and HULL trains as of tomorrow for approximately 10 days
Also
gwr are running the 57s each way trips to and from Bristol with seating stock being sent down tomorrow

IETs grounded for the next 10-14 days as of today

LSL are going to be running out of Paddington to Plymouth with 8 coaches
LSL are running the 90 and 8 coaches via ecml to York”

 

[HSTEd]

This really is the most daft comment. Our railway infrastructure is not victorian... Virtually everything has been renewed or upgraded.
It's like saying that my modern car isn't designed for these Roman roads we drive along...

The rail infrastructure does have limitations that cannot be easily overcome.

We have a lot of slightly dodgy condition bridges, a lot of curves we would never want today, and things like that.

Does anyone know how long this grounding is expected to last?
Will these services be out for months?

 

[bramling]

This is exactly what I thought when I had my first ride on one of the new Northern 195 units. I was quite shocked at the rough ride especially when travelling over points. Similar problem I presume why these are also being checked.

Rough riding seems to be endemic with recent trains. On GN, for example, the 387s ride extremely badly, the 700s are slightly better, but being in a 365 is like waking in padded fur slippers by comparison, the ride is in a different league in terms of refinement.

 

[DanNCL]

Hearing more and more rumours of stock being hired in, latest one is:
“LSL
WCRC
PULLMAN
Are all supplying additional train coaches for FGW, LNER and HULL trains as of tomorrow for approximately 10 days
Also
gwr are running the 57s each way trips to and from Bristol with seating stock being sent down tomorrow

IETs grounded for the next 10-14 days as of today

LSL are going to be running out of Paddington to Plymouth with 8 coaches
LSL are running the 90 and 8 coaches via ecml to York”

Any source for this? Because it all sounds very unlikely.

 

[Watershed]

There have been previous postings that WCML crews don't sign 185s but are there TPE crew members that only sign 802s and not 185s?

Yes.

Presumably the few Edinburgh - Newcastle shuttles that run could use a 397 with Glasgow crew if needed,

Not possible unfortunately.

and then 185s on everything between Newcastle and York? Of coruse there's 802210 available too.

It's an option, albeit not a great one as (for one) they will lose time and thus delay following services. There are now at least 5 802/2s back in traffic (out of 8 required for the normal LIV-NCL service).

 

[bramling]

Maybe I'm being unreasonable, but I would expect more than that from any company that claims to take customer service seriously.

It's human nature that most people will expect an explanation rather then just being told they can't have what they need and were reasonably expecting to get - surely good customer service recognizes that?

I don't suppose the social media team are busy re-arranging services themselves and I'm sure they're not in the depots looking for cracks.

After all, in times of lesser disruption there is normally a reason given for delays and cancellations - so why is it suddenly unreasonable to expect the same when the disruption is much, much greater?

A decent explanation also makes life much easier for the staff on the ground. Whilst it doesn’t pacify everyone, a good proportion of people are a lot more contrite if given a decent accurate explanation of what the problem is.

 

[Chris217]

802219 has just passed Huyton too
802216 was going the other way