Great British Railways: Livery, branding and appearance?

[Bletchleyite]

So I ask, what is InterCity now?

I think it is pretty clear that Avanti West Coast and LNER are, plus the GWR London to Cornwall services specifically. But yes, the rest of the railway has blurred a lot.

 

[HST43257]

I think it is pretty clear that Avanti West Coast and LNER are, plus the GWR London to Cornwall services specifically. But yes, the rest of the railway has blurred a lot.

IET minus Bedwyn is intercity for me

 

[Bletchleyite]

IET minus Bedwyn is intercity for me

Bristol semifasts are a bit debatable (though a bit like Avanti to Brum, I suppose), and the Cotswold line is a regional express with posh rolling stock (a la TPE). But probably the rest of it.

 

[Annetts key]

So if the members here are having difficulty deciding what is InterCity, how do think this name works with the passengers and the public?

I strongly suspect (‘cus I’ve never thought to ask any passengers) that they only either see a ‘train’ or the brand name promoted by the TOC.

Obviously some of them would know the difference between a ‘stopper’ / local / ‘slow’ service and a ‘fast’ with limited stops.

 

[Gareth]

InterCity mean long distance train that doesn't stop everywhere, to most people. They most likely couldn't care less about distinctions any more technical than that.

 

[HST43257]

Bristol semifasts are a bit debatable (though a bit like Avanti to Brum, I suppose), and the Cotswold line is a regional express with posh rolling stock (a la TPE). But probably the rest of it.

It’s connecting cities with limited stops over decent distances. I view London to Costwolds as IC London to Oxford then a useful extension.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s connecting cities with limited stops over decent distances. I view London to Costwolds as IC London to Oxford then a useful extension.

To be honest if we're playing DB classifications I'd call it an RE. It's quite similar to the Trent Valley stopping service in concept, apart from that there isn't a faster service on the same route.

In the Netherlands it probably would be an IC, but a Dutch IC is just a limited-stop train, and the same definition would give Northern some ICs too, e.g. the Barrows and Windermeres. SBB would probably call it an IR.

 

[HST43257]

To be honest if we're playing DB classifications I'd call it an RE. It's quite similar to the Trent Valley stopping service in concept, apart from that there isn't a faster service on the same route.

In the Netherlands it probably would be an IC, but a Dutch IC is just a limited-stop train, and the same definition would give Northern some ICs too, e.g. the Barrows and Windermeres. SBB would probably call it an IR.

But in the same way as the London to cotswolds service (albeit over a longer distance), the LNER London to Aberdeen is IC to EDB and RE to ABD. Not many Edinburgh to Aberdeen I7C services call at Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy on the way to Leuchars and Dundee.

 

[Purple Orange]

InterCity mean long distance train that doesn't stop everywhere, to most people. They most likely couldn't care less about distinctions any more technical than that.

Exactly. This forum really likes to complicate matters. I’d go as far as saying the type of train also plays a part. People can tell the difference between a train designed for intercity services and a train intended for local & commuter services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But in the same way as the London to cotswolds service (albeit over a longer distance), the LNER London to Aberdeen is IC to EDB and RE to ABD. Not many Edinburgh to Aberdeen I7C services call at Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy on the way to Leuchars and Dundee.

True, and DB actually does have a couple of examples of trains that change classification during their journey, the IC Koenigssee train pair being one example as it slots into the Takt between Freilassing and Berchtesgaden so operates as RE for that bit.

 

[Ashley Hill]

FGW was First GREATER Western as you all know but the ER was conveniently dropped to capitalise on the Great Western brand name. How about dropping the Great and just call it British Railways,why add Great? Is it to differentiate between a well remembered brand and suggesting that GBR will be great?
And for lettering if prefer Gil Sans!

 

[PTR 444]

Exactly. This forum really likes to complicate matters. I’d go as far as saying the type of train also plays a part. People can tell the difference between a train designed for intercity services and a train intended for local & commuter services.

Although trains designed for intercity services can also be used on commuter routes. This is why I think that there should not be a dedicated Intercity brand in a Great British Railways scenario, especially as many such services also double up as commuter and regional routes. I therefore believe that there should be no reference to Intercity, and services should remain branded based on their operating area like they are now.

Saying that though, I think there is merit in using an Intercity Express brand for HS2 and NPR services in the future, as long as it is NOT also used on classic services as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is why I think that there should not be a dedicated Intercity brand in a Great British Railways scenario. Nowadays, many such services also double up as commuter routes, while the stock it uses is often seen on services that could never be considered intercity. I therefore believe that there should be no reference to Intercity, and services should remain branded based on their operating area like they are now.

Saying that though, I think there is merit in using an Intercity Express brand for HS2 and NPR services in the future, as long as it is NOT also used on classic services as well.

As things were I've always assumed those would be something like "Avanti Hispeed", but who knows now?

 

[24Grange]

Go back to British Rail, a lot of people still call it that anyway ( like hoover instead of vacuum cleaner

 

[43096]

True, and DB actually does have a couple of examples of trains that change classification during their journey, the IC Koenigssee train pair being one example as it slots into the Takt between Freilassing and Berchtesgaden so operates as RE for that bit.

SBB used to change the classifications of the EC "Iris" and "Vauban" in their later years when they ran through to Zürich and beyond. They were classified as EuroCity through Belgium, Luxembourg and France, but they fitted into the Basel-Zürich via Brugg/Baden IR circuit in Switzerland, presumably because they didn't have a buffet/restaurant car and therefore didn't meet Swiss standards for an IC, let alone an EC.

 

[Irascible]

I think it is pretty clear that Avanti West Coast and LNER are, plus the GWR London to Cornwall services specifically. But yes, the rest of the railway has blurred a lot.

Except half the B&H services stop everywhere, and they all turn into stoppers past Plymouth. Intercity was always a bit undefined on the GW, and to me frankly it means a service with Intercity branding & that's about it. How did BR decide what belonged to IC & what ended up with RR?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except half the B&H services stop everywhere, and they all turn into stoppers past Plymouth. Intercity was always a bit undefined on the GW, and to me frankly it means a service with Intercity branding & that's about it. How did BR decide what belonged to IC & what ended up with RR?

Basically if it was profitable it went to IC.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Will there really still be that much value or purpose to having either service related or regional branding? If the high-level purpose of restructuring is to provide measurable improvements to railway users while also containing some of the costs then maybe the long-term branding policy should be to revert to a unified national image with only minimal branding or localised identification. Do non-enthusiast passengers (ie the massively overwhelming majority!) really care about the colour of the train? A number of posters have pointed out how much our national railway resembles an oversized version of the Dutch system where the national operator continues to use liveries very much based around a unified image. Far better in my view for GBR to seek to build a positive image through excellence of service while providing value for money rather than flashy liveries which change every few years. Remember that in the long-term existing TOCs will become little more than concessionaires so no need for visual differentiation between them. And yes I realise that ScotRail and TfW will still want their own branding but even that could be done on top of a national (GB wide) scheme.

 

[Purple Orange]

Although trains designed for intercity services can also be used on commuter routes. This is why I think that there should not be a dedicated Intercity brand in a Great British Railways scenario, especially as many such services also double up as commuter and regional routes. I therefore believe that there should be no reference to Intercity, and services should remain branded based on their operating area like they are now.

Saying that though, I think there is merit in using an Intercity Express brand for HS2 and NPR services in the future, as long as it is NOT also used on classic services as well.

Yes I see the merit in one brand covering HS2 and NPR; any service that runs on any stretch of HS2 should be covered by such a brand name. However, I would also include London Paddington to Bristol, Cardiff and Plymouth.

Outside of that, I can see a scenario of there being many smaller brands.

 

[PTR 444]

Yes I see the merit in one brand covering HS2 and NPR; any service that runs on any stretch of HS2 should be covered by such a brand name. However, I would also include London Paddington to Bristol, Cardiff and Plymouth.

Outside of that, I can see a scenario of there being many smaller brands.

When you say that, do you envisage a scenario where each TOC brand is split into several sub-brands? For example, carving GWR into separate identities for Thames Valley, Wessex and GW long-distance like it used to be.

 

[Purple Orange]

When you say that, do you envisage a scenario where each TOC brand is split into several sub-brands? For example, carving GWR into separate identities for Thames Valley, Wessex and GW long-distance like it used to be.

I guess wherever it works on a local scale. ‘Great Western’ may be the best brand for all local services in the south west and out of Paddington, but in Northern territories we might see GM Rail, Merseyrail, Yorkshire Rail etc, but there will always be some overlap too. TPE will be absorbed in to NPR which will have a different brand again.

 

[PTR 444]

I guess wherever it works on a local scale. ‘Great Western’ may be the best brand for all local services in the south west and out of Paddington,

I’m not so sure. There is no overlap between the Thames Valley and Wessex local services so if GW intercity services become separate, then that leaves two disconnected Great Western networks which would look silly on a map. If intercity services are included in the GW brand however, then it makes sense to have it as a whole like it is now.

but in Northern territories we might see GM Rail, Merseyrail, Yorkshire Rail etc, but there will always be some overlap too. TPE will be absorbed in to NPR which will have a different brand again.

GM Rail might be better off as LancsRail as very few National Rail services stay within the Greater Manchester boundary. I could also see there being a TyneRail brand for local services in Newcastle and the wider North East region.

 

[Purple Orange]

I’m not so sure. There is no overlap between the Thames Valley and Wessex local services so if GW intercity services become separate, then that leaves two disconnected Great Western networks which would look silly on a map. If intercity services are included in the GW brand however, then it makes sense to have it as a whole like it is now.

GM Rail might be better off as LancsRail as very few National Rail services stay within the Greater Manchester boundary. I could also see there being a TyneRail brand for local services in Newcastle and the wider North East region.

Well GM Rail is an actual thing that’s appearing to be getting traction. I.e. 4 tph on certain routes that go through central Manchester. Just because the service starts in Lancashire and ends in Cheshire is neither here nor there - Merseyrail isn’t confined to Merseyside, Northern goes in to the Midlands, East Midlands Rail goes to the north west, Scotrail comes in to England, Transport for Wales has key routes in England, South Western Rail operates in the South East, Great Northern doesn’t go in to the North, London Underground goes to Buckinghamshire, London NorthWestern mostly serves Birmingham & Liverpool. Tyne Rail would/should perhaps be North Eastern Railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well GM Rail is an actual thing that’s appearing to be getting traction. I.e. 4 tph on certain routes that go through central Manchester. Just because the service starts in Lancashire and ends in Cheshire is neither here nor there - Merseyrail isn’t confined to Merseyside, Northern goes in to the Midlands, East Midlands Rail goes to the north west, Scotrail comes in to England, Transport for Wales has key routes in England, South Western Rail operates in the South East, Great Northern doesn’t go in to the North, London Underground goes to Buckinghamshire, London NorthWestern mostly serves Birmingham & Liverpool. Tyne Rail would/should perhaps be North Eastern Railway.

I would bet it will be:

Bee Rail/Bee Train for Manchester
T Train or R Rail for Newcastle (like M Metro and B Buses)

...as that's in line with their existing/planned branding.

I would be surprised if the Merseyrail brand went anywhere as it's very strong and well known.

 

[ScottGallagher]

You could have a livery framework each for regional , intercity and southeast with colour variance as to region so there is semi consistency, much along the lines of what the ptes used to do for Regional Railways .

 

[camflyer]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-to-replace-network-rail-more-changes.217595

Sensible idea. Stupid name.

 

[irish_rail]

I must admit, since the amalgamation of the various constituents of the Great Western franchise, the so called intercity services have lost a little of their "prestige" now that they are under the same umbrella as the Gunnislake and Marlow branch.
The livery and branding on IET services from London to Penzance is the same as that on the Looe or St Ives branch, and I would think this has negative connotations for customers towards the intercity services, taking away any ideas of speed and comfort.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The livery and branding on IET services from London to Penzance is the same as that on the Looe or St Ives branch, and I would think this has negative connotations for customers towards the intercity services, taking away any ideas if speed and comfort.

I suspect the thing that has brought negative connotations is probably the drab grey, uncomfortable seats and 1980s bus style colour scheme the 80x have, to be honest

(It's amazing what a splash of colour on TPE and LNER unit seat covers does!)

 

[philosopher]

Sensible idea. Stupid name.

I suppose if they did not want to recycle old names, they could have instead called it UK railways or UK rail.

 

[68000]

Stupid name which will incur un-necessary cost in changing from Network Rail

I suppose if they did not want to recycle old names, they could have instead called it UK railways or UK rail.

They can't do that as NI Railways is not part of it