EMR Class 360's

[STINT47]

Are the 360s able to run in 12 car formations? I thought this was the plan but EMR advised someone on Twitter that they cannot run as 12 cars.

 

[43102EMR]

Are the 360s able to run in 12 car formations? I thought this was the plan but EMR advised someone on Twitter that they cannot run as 12 cars.

I thought there were plans but Covid scrapped them IIRC?

 

[Aictos]

I thought there were plans but Covid scrapped them IIRC?

Further work is needed to see if this is a viable option in the future is what EMR said on social media, what this actually means I don't know?

 

[43055]

Are the 360s able to run in 12 car formations? I thought this was the plan but EMR advised someone on Twitter that they cannot run as 12 cars.

There were plans for 12 cars at peak times. At least one test/training run was a 12 car formation so it is not completely off the cards.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Anymore issues so far today? Looking on Twitter I can see a lot of fury from passengers towards EMR, particularly the Wellingborough commuters...

Wellingborough travelers are the main loser from the new timetable, however here it's seemed to me that most of the focus was on the Luton/Bedford/Wellingborough --> North timetabling. As has been said by several here, it's a small market, mitigated by peak-hour calls, clock-face timetabling and hopefully slick interchanges at Kettering and Leicester.

What is being picked up on more widely is the apparently degraded customer experience for Wellingborough-London commuters. The failure to make *any* progress on the promised refurb of the 360s means that the commuter comment in the linked article from the Northants Telegraph seems reasonably fair to me.

Winners and losers as Corby, Kettering and Wellingborough trains go electric with new timetable

The new timetable has meant Wellingborough commuters have lost their direct weekday intercity service

www.northantstelegraph.co.uk

The trains will also take much longer to arrive at their destination with up to ten minute longer travel times on some services going up from 47 to 57 minutes.

To compound the misery these trains will also be moved from being the current Meridian intercity trains to older electric trains which have not been refurbished and will offer significant reductions in space per passenger, comfort, facilities on board and even basic things like a table to work whilst travelling.

However, in EMR's defence, is it reasonable for Wellingborough folk to complain about the mid-life diesel train with a shabby and dated interior being replaced by an mid-life electric train with a shabby and dated interior?

This quote, from an EMR spokesperson, was quite interesting too.

"We haven't got a date for the refurbishment. It's been more difficult to do things in the pandemic."

The pandemic was a valid reason 6-12 months ago. However, we've all had to crack on and get back to normal productivity using new, Covid-safe working practices. It stretches credibility for EMR to say that on the one hand, Covid makes refurbs so hard that they can't even talk dates, and then put out slick videos of Hitachi actually building new trains from the ground up in a Covid-safe way. It wouldn't be unreasonable to bet that the 360 refurb is being de-scoped, cancelled or substantially delayed and EMR/DfT just don't want to share the good news yet.

 

[Wolfie]

Wellingborough travelers are the main loser from the new timetable, however here it's seemed to me that most of the focus was on the Luton/Bedford/Wellingborough --> North timetabling. As has been said by several here, it's a small market, mitigated by peak-hour calls, clock-face timetabling and hopefully slick interchanges at Kettering and Leicester.

What is being picked up on more widely is the apparently degraded customer experience for Wellingborough-London commuters. The failure to make *any* progress on the promised refurb of the 360s means that the commuter comment in the linked article from the Northants Telegraph seems reasonably fair to me.

Winners and losers as Corby, Kettering and Wellingborough trains go electric with new timetable

The new timetable has meant Wellingborough commuters have lost their direct weekday intercity service

www.northantstelegraph.co.uk

However, in EMR's defence, is it reasonable for Wellingborough folk to complain about the mid-life diesel train with a shabby and dated interior being replaced by an mid-life electric train with a shabby and dated interior?

This quote, from an EMR spokesperson, was quite interesting too.



The pandemic was a valid reason 6-12 months ago. However, we've all had to crack on and get back to normal productivity using new, Covid-safe working practices. It stretches credibility for EMR to say that on the one hand, Covid makes refurbs so hard that they can't even talk dates, and then put out slick videos of Hitachi actually building new trains from the ground up in a Covid-safe way. It wouldn't be unreasonable to bet that the 360 refurb is being de-scoped, cancelled or substantially delayed and EMR/DfT just don't want to share the good news yet.

Firstly the class 360s and Meridians are as near as damn it the same age.
Secondly, the distance from Wellingborough to London is more or less identical to that from Northampton and pretty much identical trains (the class 350s, some of which have had a refurb consisting essentially of fitting power sockets, new seat covers and a deep clean) are used from there. Indeed Portsmouth is further and similar (classes 444 and 450) DC sister trains are used from there.
Thirdly, there is a fair likelihood that the delayed class 360 refurbishment is in the main due to late release of the stock due to delays in arrivals of new replacement trains at GA.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Firstly the class 360s and Meridians are as near as damn it the same age.

Exactly what I said - one middle aged train with a dated interior has been replaced with another. It hardly smacks of an upgrade to the average punter

Thirdly, there is a fair likelihood that the delayed class 360 refurbishment is in the main due to late release of the stock due to delays in arrivals of new replacement trains at GA.

Entirely reasonable, but EMR knew they were getting the 360s a long time ago (first informed speculation on this forum was June 2019), and the first one arrived 11 months ago.
It's not that they've failed to complete the whole fleet. It's that they've not even got a date to start the first one.

 

[Wolfie]

Exactly what I said - one middle aged train with a dated interior has been replaced with another. It hardly smacks of an upgrade to the average punter


Entirely reasonable, but EMR knew they were getting the 360s a long time ago (first informed speculation on this forum was June 2019), and the first one arrived 11 months ago.
It's not that they've failed to complete the whole fleet. It's that they've not even got a date to start the first one.


Annual season ticket prices to London:
Bedford - £5804
Northampton - £6096
Portsmouth & Southsea - £6112
Wellingborough - £7780

Ouch. Yes, l can see the financial issue there. Comparative train speed and frequency?

 

[RailWonderer]

I took a Meridian in early January and thought the standard class seats and carpets were dirtier than even the 360s at their worst. The 3+2 is comfortable (when it's not rammed) and has decent legroom, you could say the meridians are also cramped with their tables and legroom although the Voyager ambience is more IC worthy. It's a trade off.

 

[MML]

COVID started in March 2020. The class 360s were originally intended to be in service in Dec 2020.
While COVID could be used as an excuse for late delivery or late refurbishment, EMR are being dishonest with commuters. It's not that refurbishment has been delayed due to social distancing or lack of supplies. EMR haven't even signed a contract to perform the work. That should have been achieved before March 2020 to meet the original timeline.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the refurb ditched as the EMR PR department spin the messaging to focus on increased frequency, more seats and "green" credentials rather than comfort and providing an Inter City product to match the high fares.

 

[43096]

COVID started in March 2020. The class 360s were originally intended to be in service in Dec 2020.
While COVID could be used as an excuse for late delivery or late refurbishment, EMR are being dishonest with commuters. It's not that refurbishment has been delayed due to social distancing or lack of supplies. EMR haven't even signed a contract to perform the work. That should have been achieved before March 2020 to meet the original timeline.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the refurb ditched as the EMR PR department spin the messaging to focus on increased frequency, more seats and "green" credentials rather than comfort and providing an Inter City product to match the high fares.

I rather suspect the dead hand of the DfT (and Treasury) is behind the delay, rather than EMR.

 

[Journeyman]

Surely one of the biggest issues here is late delivery of GA's new rolling stock, so the cascade was delayed?

 

[Wolfie]

COVID started in March 2020. The class 360s were originally intended to be in service in Dec 2020.
While COVID could be used as an excuse for late delivery or late refurbishment, EMR are being dishonest with commuters. It's not that refurbishment has been delayed due to social distancing or lack of supplies. EMR haven't even signed a contract to perform the work. That should have been achieved before March 2020 to meet the original timeline.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the refurb ditched as the EMR PR department spin the messaging to focus on increased frequency, more seats and "green" credentials rather than comfort and providing an Inter City product to match the high fares.

I seriously doubt that there will be no refurbishment. I do, however, imagine that the outcome will look rather similar to the refurbished LNWR 350s. I'd hope, but couldn't guarantee, that 3+2 was removed and 1st class reinstated.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I can see where the Wellingborough commuters are coming from. I'd be pretty miffed if a comfortable Meridian with a nice ambience was removed and replaced by an Electric train that hasn't seen a full refurb since they were introduced.

 

[swt_passenger]

I seriously doubt that there will be no refurbishment. I do, however, imagine that the outcome will look rather similar to the refurbished LNWR 350s. I'd hope, but couldn't guarantee, that 3+2 was removed and 1st class reinstated.

The franchise agreement required 2+2 seating and different numbers of first to be fitted. That’s if it’s still got any validity of course…

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I can see where the Wellingborough commuters are coming from. I'd be pretty miffed if a comfortable Meridian with a nice ambience was removed and replaced by an Electric train that hasn't seen a full refurb since they were introduced.

Indeed, and for those comparing it to Northampton and such - true it’s a similar length journey but Northampton has always had 2+3 350s, and 2+3 321s before that.

Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough have been used to 2+2 seats and armrests, tables, trolley service and fast trains. They are being downgraded. Whether Corby justifies an Intercity service or not, the point is Corby was given the luxuries of one which have now been taken away

 

[Journeyman]

I can see where the Wellingborough commuters are coming from. I'd be pretty miffed if a comfortable Meridian with a nice ambience was removed and replaced by an Electric train that hasn't seen a full refurb since they were introduced.

The Meridians are the same age and haven't been refurbished either. They're very shabby these days.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The Meridians are the same age and haven't been refurbished either. They're very shabby these days.

There is, however, a loss of amenities. No catering, no first class, no tables, no plug sockets, no armrests, all of which are available on the Meridians.

 

[Journeyman]

There is, however, a loss of amenities. No catering, no first class, no tables, no plug sockets, no armrests, all of which are available on the Meridians.

That is, of course, a fair point. Hopefully some of that will be resolved in time.

 

[Mag_seven]

Another reminder that this is a Traction and Rolling stock section thread for the discussion of the EMR Class 360s

For discussion of fares please use this thread:

Are MML fares too high for the quality of service on offer?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-class-360s.205226/page-32#post-4994676 They're 20 year old Class 360s cascaded from another operator, which will have worse seating than both the HST and the Meridian until they are refurbished by EMR. Added to the fact the...

www.railforums.co.uk

thanks

 

[Aictos]

That is, of course, a fair point. Hopefully some of that will be resolved in time.

I'm sure EMR stated and it's been repeated on here numerous times that the refurbished Class 360 interior will have a offering similar if not superior to the Class 222s.

So people of Wellingborough etc should he patient a little while longer.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm sure EMR stated and it's been repeated on here numerous times that the refurbished Class 360 interior will have a offering similar if not superior to the Class 222s.

So people of Wellingborough etc should he patient a little while longer.

Yes, that's correct of course. Though the fact that they have not even seemingly signed an agreement / contract with any one to do the work makes me suspicious/ concerned about what will happen - and as mentioned recently up thread no doubt the hand of DfT is at work here. And if it is, it would be for one reasons - all about saving money eg not doing it at all, or significantly descoping it to make it cheaper. Given reduced ridership it would seem daft to argue that you still needed high density seating, but if you could save money by retaining existing seats, I would have thought that would deliver a price reduction that would probably seem attractive to the paymasters at HM Treasury.

 

[Aictos]

Yes, that's correct of course. Though the fact that they have not even seemingly signed an agreement / contract with any one to do the work makes me suspicious/ concerned about what will happen - and as mentioned recently up thread no doubt the hand of DfT is at work here. And if it is, it would be for one reasons - all about saving money eg not doing it at all, or significantly descoping it to make it cheaper. Given reduced ridership it would seem daft to argue that you still needed high density seating, but if you could save money by retaining existing seats, I would have thought that would deliver a price reduction that would probably seem attractive to the paymasters at HM Treasury.

Maybe they have signed a agreement but for reasons unknown have yet to announce anything?

As the 3+2 seating, I'm sure the specification for the service specified the trains to have 2+2 seating so any change would have to be a new service specification surely?

 

[Merle Haggard]

At the time of the electrification work at Wellingborough the road layout around the station was altered considerably, a new road across the former car park and a new bridge to give access to what were open fields to the east of the station, previously locked by the railway. This land is now being covered by new houses that are in walking distance of the station and are being marketed as ideal for commuters.
I imagine that people looking at the possibility of buying houses to make their commute easier (live nearer a station versus longer train journey) might also check the train service and look at the trains involved. If they do, they might be disappointed by them.
There is nothing to say, as far as I can tell, inside the 360s or on stations to say that their present condition will ever be improved. When the Grand Central HST sets entered service with Stagecoach EMT there were large notices inside telling passengers that the interior was not of an acceptable standard but was being improved. Their as-received condition was superior to the present 360 one in every way, despite being much older.
Equally, before the timetable change, there was no publicity at Wellingborough about the withdrawal of through services beyond Kettering/Corby and of first class, either. There WAS a poster saying 'greener electric trains with more seats' without mentioning that 'more seats' was achieved by cramming more in to the same space - 2 + 3 instead of 2 + 2.
Customers are more easily lost than gained.

 

[JaJaWa]

Why are they removing First Class?

 

[swt_passenger]

Why are they removing First Class?

I think there isn’t enough for what they want and it’s only 2+2.

I expect the consulted capacity figures take into account the conversion to 2+2 with 2+1 first anyway, it’ll still be a significantly increased number of seats at all the connect stations when only running as 8 car.

 

[WesternLancer]

Maybe they have signed a agreement but for reasons unknown have yet to announce anything?

As the 3+2 seating, I'm sure the specification for the service specified the trains to have 2+2 seating so any change would have to be a new service specification surely?

Yes, that may be correct ref agreement, good point.

Ref specification for the service - I tend to think that with the railways under direct DfT control - with private sector operators running it for DfT, (and a White Paper on the horizon for some sort of new structure), my hunch is that any specification put in the original franchise agreement can probably be altered at the stroke of a civil servants pen (with the possible counter signature of a Minister). Set against that would be pressure from the local MPs I would think.

Of course that does not mean the original plan will not be delivered, but it also does not mean that it will be delivered....

 

[Aictos]

In other news, 102/112 was out today in EMR Purple livery - are they the only ones done so far?

 

[43102EMR]

In other news, 102/112 was out today in EMR Purple livery - are they the only ones done so far?

They were the only two vinyled for the EMR Connect launch - the rest of the fleet will be repainted once the refurbishment programme begins.

 

[Aictos]

They were the only two vinyled for the EMR Connect launch - the rest of the fleet will be repainted once the refurbishment programme begins.

Okay I thought they might have been but wanted to check, thanks for confirming tho.