Great British Railways: Livery, branding and appearance?

[Martin23230]

I just don't get this view at all. We must be the only country in the world ashamed of our flag. Literally every country displays it proudly, and many even stick it on their trains e.g. US, Canada, Switzerland...

It's odd to me. Most people on here I suspect liked Network SouthEast branding, which is in the Union Flag colours. Yet as soon as someone suggests that's what it is, they hate it.

It's not that most people are ashamed of it I think (although I'm sure some people are), it's just the general embarrassment of people who seem to worship the flag and demand it stamped on everything. It just seems gaudy, it reminds me of those tourist tat shops in airports and all over central London. It feels too American, and just not-British (ironically).

As an example, I'd be fine with having some Union Flag-inspired logo or livery for the new rail company - that's alright and basically harmless. As long as we don't go the full US route where they demand stars and stipes on everything, that's just unimaginative. Rather it's things like the Tory MP who complained that the BBC's annual report doesn't have enough flags in it that I personally find just so tiring. It's why I was somewhat embarrassed to see that of course the front page of the Williams-Shapps Plan has an image of the Union Flag flying high. Not embarrassed about the flag itself to be clear, that's perfectly fine and honestly should be encouraged more in day-to-day life. But just embarrassed because I bet they specifically picked that picture for just that reason, in order to appeal to those people who take up minutes of parliamentary committee time complaining that a document doesn't have enough flags in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think Best Impressions did the Virgin Trains East Coast livery which, while it does have some nice aspects is, as far as I can remember off the top of my head, the worst livery the 91s have ever carried.

Every organisation makes a mistake once in a while, and I'd agree that the VTEC livery was pretty hideous - too many vertical/near-vertical elements - trains are long and thin so horizontal elements work best. It looks even worse with a non-matching DVT as TfW have done.

 

[Andyh82]

Whatever they come up with, I hope they get a proper transport design agency in to produce a distinctive modern look, as mentioned a few pages ago, like the work Best Impressions did with London Midland

Ideally trains not painted 90% white, or with very dark shades of colours, or too corporate looking grey, or anything that looks ridiculously old fashioned

I'd be thinking some consistent style, but with secondary colours denoting the region, or the type of service, like you get with TfL

More South West Trains less South Western Railway!

 

[Devonian]

I suspect that the rather 'marmite' "Great British Railways" may be an overarching name that is not often overtly stated at platfom level. The report mentions "national and regional sub-identities" and says that "[the double arrow logo will] increasingly appear on trains, uniforms and publicity material too"; the new signage specifications - which I would expect to have been drawn up with this review in mind - limit the branding to the double arrow. That suggests that, while the double arrow itself will be a strong universal thread, local versions of the identity may be used in practice away from a unified national booking, refund and management system.

Signage we know will be black on white with the double arrow across the whole network: deliberately bland and timeless to distinguish it from advertising, more legible on dark platforms than white on black. It makes sense to have a national standard for the built environment to reinforce the national nature of the network, rather than the territory of the individual operators, where multiple companies call at the same platforms.

However, I would be rather surprised if any attempt were made to have a completely uniform livery across the trains: there will still be those multiple operators providing the train services, including open access, and I'd expect different liveries for different broad divisions just as there are for the different parts of TfL, which GBR is being likened to. But given the reference to "regional identities" there's no suggestion that we will see the return of a nationwide Intercity livery, for example - though CrossCountry will probably come closest to getting one.

We know the regions will be initially based on the Network Rail regions. With few exceptions, there has been a push towards fairly plain liveries over the last decade, so If I had to put money on it, I'd reckon that each region would have a colour variation of a plain scheme of light base and coloured doors, with some standard shape of block colour at the ends, in colours not dissimilar to the colours in use today on at least one of the companies operating in that area; so green for the (Great?) Western region, lighter green (or blue) for the Southern region etc. There is 'convenient' common ground too: Anglia and LNER sharing red and white in the Eastern region, for example. Will it be exciting? Alas, I fear it will not!

Off the top of my head, ScotRail, EMR and GWR stand out from the crowd with dark bases, as do Southeastern's reliveried trains: I would anyway assume that Wales and Scotland will continue to have their own branding under devolution and the "national identities" clause, but incorporating the double arrow and possibly some of the GBR standards for things like timetables, and perhaps Great Western will be allowed to keep its dark base for a while at least, as it already covers the whole of a defined region.

I would also expect the local passenger travel executives to keep separate localised branding - it would help to define the pay-as-you-go areas - though be required to display the double arrow prominently and possibly being expected to switch to harmonised typography and livery layout.

Adding a double arrow on the carriages would be a simple update. Standardising the typefaces used in publicity and timetables across the network would be fairly easy as most of it is updated twice a year anyway. If something like this happened, at least in the short term, I'd not be completely surprised:

 

[Mat17]

To be honest I expect it'll be like sectorisation: NSE, GMPTE, Strathclyde, WYPTE, Regional Railways, Intercity...

All were under one company BR, but each had its own identity/colour scheme. GMPTE with its orange and brown, Tyne & Wear with its yellow/blue and white livery. All having the double arrow signage.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Every organisation makes a mistake once in a while, and I'd agree that the VTEC livery was pretty hideous - too many vertical/near-vertical elements - trains are long and thin so horizontal elements work best. It looks even worse with a non-matching DVT as TfW have done.

The matching DVTs had the hideous swirls as well; the coaches themselves (other than there being a bit too much red on the buffet) don't look too bad - and worked quite well with the DB red 67 that was hauling one of the TfW sets the other day).

Ideally trains not painted 90% white, or with very dark shades of colours, or too corporate looking grey, or anything that looks ridiculously old fashioned

I'd be thinking some consistent style, but with secondary colours denoting the region, or the type of service, like you get with TfL

More South West Trains less South Western Railway!

I'd agree with a consistent style with different colour choices, like South West Trains. I wouldn't ban dark colours though, my choice of 'consistent style' for intercity services would be white (or light grey) with a dark window band and doors the same colour as said window band. The Azuma livery is almost compliant with that (just needs the doors painting dark red to match the window band) as is the livery of the Chiltern silver sets. Suburban services would be more like SWT/EMT, a plain body with the doors in the other colour with 75mph regional trains like 156s (if such things continue to exist) using an inverted version of the intercity livery (ie. dark bodyside with the light colour used for the doors and window surround) but with the window band being wider.

Standardising the typefaces used in publicity and timetables across the network would be fairly easy as most of it is updated twice a year anyway. If something like this happened, at least in the short term, I'd not be completely surprised:
View attachment 96636

I like the look of those timetables, except that (as with the LNER livery) having red used for the east coast feels wrong given that I have always associated red with the WCML \ Midland Railway \ LMS \ BR Midland Region \ Virgin Trains West Coast.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd agree with a consistent style with different colour choices, like South West Trains. I wouldn't ban dark colours though, my choice of 'consistent style' for intercity services would be white (or light grey) with a dark window band and doors the same colour as said window band. The Azuma livery is almost compliant with that (just needs the doors painting dark red to match the window band) as is the livery of the Chiltern silver sets. Suburban services would be more like SWT/EMT, a plain body with the doors in the other colour with 75mph regional trains like 156s (if such things continue to exist) using an inverted version of the intercity livery (ie. dark bodyside with the light colour used for the doors and window surround) but with the window band being wider.

If you replace the grey band and swoop-up with blue and the LNER wording with a double arrow that'd be ideal (plus Azuma with Intercity or something, ideally). I'd leave the doors grey as blue doors might be a bit garish.

 

[43096]

Livery - how about a return to "blood and custard"?

Just no. Looked rubbish when it was used in Strathclyde on PTE stock. And no maroon either, please.

Given the number of white/light grey base livery trains around, I’d go for something like a blue band along the windows and red doors. Or maybe a Regional Railways/Intercity mash-up with RR blue at the top of the bodyside, white stripe, red stripe and lower bodyside.

Appeals to those who like the “Great British” of the name and uses national colours.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I just don't get this view at all. We must be the only country in the world ashamed of our flag. Literally every country displays it proudly, and many even stick it on their trains e.g. US, Canada, Switzerland...

It's odd to me. Most people on here I suspect liked Network SouthEast branding, which is in the Union Flag colours. Yet as soon as someone suggests that's what it is, they hate it.

Nor do I.

I actually think people's embarrassment about the flag is itself a form of inverted nationalism. Since the Victorian times, overt nationalism has always been something associated with European, particularly Prussian, then later American cultures. British people tend to set themselves apart with the US and Europe with a sort of snobby 'no, we don't need to do that nationalism stuff here'.

 

[muddythefish]

Isn't GBR a misnomer as Scotland and Welsh railways are run by the devolved governments?

Great English Railway might be more accurate, or GER for short

The original GER (Great Eastern Railway) livery was an attractive dark blue IIRC, so might be a possiblity for the new regime

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'd leave the doors grey as blue doors might be a bit garish.

Depends on the shade of blue. If it was a dark blue it should be fine (using the GNER shade of blue or the shade used on SWT's 444/158 livery would probably work). The dark grey doors on the Azumas add another colour to the livery which isn't used anywhere else. If you want the doors to be dark grey make the window band dark grey too (like Chiltern, but without the gap between the door and the window band). One thing I forgot to mention earlier was that I would also put the INTERCITY logo on the lower bodyside using the window band colour as the font colour for the logo (just like the early version of GWT 'Merlin' livery, except that the other end of the coach would either have no text or the operator's name in a font that matches the INTERCITY logo).

 

[HSTEd]

We could always just paint everything british racing green.

Or battleship grey.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm too boring.

 

[Purple Orange]

I think it will be multiple liveries, but under an umbrella brand design. I.e. everything has the BR arrows (or whatever incarnation that becomes), everything has “GBR” referenced, there may be an overall umbrella livery design with the same font used across each brand name, but different franchises (what is proposed is a form of franchising still) will have their own name and colours within that design. Just like you could pick different colours for an Apple product, but the choices are already defined.

 

[jon0844]

I just don't get this view at all. We must be the only country in the world ashamed of our flag. Literally every country displays it proudly, and many even stick it on their trains e.g. US, Canada, Switzerland...

If it's going to take some years to fully rebrand, I don't think using the Union Flag is a good idea given the likelihood of Scotland leaving (and maybe Wales next) so we'll end up being Great English Railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it's going to take some years to fully rebrand, I don't think using the Union Flag is a good idea given the likelihood of Scotland leaving (and maybe Wales next) so we'll end up being Great English Railway.

Wales will not go independent. Other than within a union like the EU it is not a viable country in its own right, being highly symbiotic with nearby English cities, unlike Scotland which has a huge expanse of emptiness between Carlisle/Newcastle and the central belt. And it voted mostly "leave", so it won't, unlike Scotland, be interested in trading the UK for the EU.

It is much more of a cultural construct than a political or economic one, unlike Scotland which is all three.

Even if it did happen, there would still be English-controlled "international" services to both, which they aren't going to like being called Rail England.

 

[221101 Voyager]

View attachment 96636

Timetables like that would look nice!

Also, when trains require a repaint, I wonder if we will start bringing in a consistant colour scheme like InterCity swallow, network southeast and regional railways again.

Or have some kind of consistantancy but maybe just different shades for different regions maybe?

It will also be nice to see the double arrow logo on trains too!

 

[adc82140]

As the majority of franchises no longer carry the branding of any parent company, or carry any house colours, I foresee very little change. Most of them simply describe the geographic area they serve. I don't see a mass repainting of trains going down well with the public, when this whole exercise has been billed as the end to multiple rebrands.

 

[221101 Voyager]

As the majority of franchises no longer carry the branding of any parent company, or carry any house colours, I foresee very little change. Most of them simply describe the geographic area they serve. I don't see a mass repainting of trains going down well with the public, when this whole exercise has been billed as the end to multiple rebrands.

What I'm suggesting is, when trains require their next repaint, start rolling out a more standardised appearance like Intercity Swallow for example or Network Southeast or Regional Railways.

 

[AdamWW]

As the majority of franchises no longer carry the branding of any parent company, or carry any house colours, I foresee very little change. Most of them simply describe the geographic area they serve. I don't see a mass repainting of trains going down well with the public, when this whole exercise has been billed as the end to multiple rebrands.

I personally don't see most of the public paying much attention to what colour the trains are or caring overly much.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I personally don't see most of the public paying much attention to what colour the trains are or caring overly much.

In some ways TOC colours are quite useful, as "go and get on the green train over there" is more useful at say Oxford* (where there are also silver and blue, and silver and purple ones) than "go and get on the blue and grey one the same as all the other blue and grey ones".

* Had to use the Oxford comma in that list, obviously

 

[AdamWW]

In some ways TOC colours are quite useful, as "go and get on the green train over there" is more useful at say Oxford* (where there are also silver and blue, and silver and purple ones) than "go and get on the blue and grey one the same as all the other blue and grey ones".

* Had to use the Oxford comma in that list, obviously

Indeed.

I can't see would would be gained by imposing a single livery - given that most trains are captive to particular areas or sets of routes why not take advantage of that and have some kind of area or route branding?

But that is a different kettle of fish to the suggestion I responded to which was that there would be a general objection to trains being repainted because the government had said multiple rebranding was going to end.

 

[Gareth]

It's quite likely, I would say, that there would be at least some distinct livery schemes, probably along the lines of the different groups of tendered services. TfL tender the London Overground services and whilst similar to other TfL brands, it is, nonetheless, distinct.

 

[221101 Voyager]

In some ways TOC colours are quite useful, as "go and get on the green train over there" is more useful at say Oxford* (where there are also silver and blue, and silver and purple ones) than "go and get on the blue and grey one the same as all the other blue and grey ones".

* Had to use the Oxford comma in that list, obviously

You should see my Intercity livery proposals Bletchleyite!

I think you'll like them!

So my concept is to use the same livery design, but in different colours for different regions of intercity services.

I know they won't be on 91s, but it's just an example train I had!

Just Imagine these are 800s!

Also, using silver as a base colour will mean they hide the dirt well!


So what I'm saying here is basically, whenever any 80x or other train needs repainting roll out an identity like these.

Let me know what you think!

Anglia


East Midlands


GWR



West Coast


North Eastern

 

[Gareth]

They're quite nice, actually.

 

[Senex]

I just don't get this view at all. We must be the only country in the world ashamed of our flag. Literally every country displays it proudly, and many even stick it on their trains e.g. US, Canada, Switzerland...

It's odd to me. Most people on here I suspect liked Network SouthEast branding, which is in the Union Flag colours. Yet as soon as someone suggests that's what it is, they hate it.

Could it just be that the UK flag is such a hideous, cluttered mess of a flag — nothing to be proud of? How much finer the simplicity of the English red cross, the Scottish saltire, and the Welsh dragon. Now there are three flags one can both be proud of and delight in.

 

[221101 Voyager]

They're quite nice, actually.

Thank you!

 

[RobShipway]

It's unhealthy, isn't it? A sneering snobbery and self-loathing of their own country and the idea that literally everywhere else is more wholesome & civilized, except perhaps the US, which is essentially seen as Britian on steroids.

And for 99% of them, it's not an aversion to flags in general. They love seeing Scottish saltires on their Aberdeen Angus packaging. They love seeing Jamaican flags at their local Carribbean restaurant. They'll happily snap photos of flag standards abroad as part their holiday experience. And the EU flag, essentially their replacement national flag, brings tears to their eyes.

It's not even that, so far as I'm aware, we've seen any proposed livery, whether said livery will feature the Union Jack or that there will even be a uniform livery at all. It's pure speculation at the moment. But hey, it's "pathetic", regardless.

I know some people see the Union Jack, as racist as it has been used against some to be racist. Hence, that is why I think there is an adverse reaction sometimes when it is used.

That having been said, I think to be painting a train in the red, white and blue as was use din NSE would be a good thing and like a few I actually don't see trains being repainted from the colours that they are currently running in at the moment, due to the fact that they would help passengers identify one operators train from another.

 

[PerryPacer]

You should see my Intercity livery proposals Bletchleyite!

I think you'll like them!

So my concept is to use the same livery design, but in different colours for different regions of intercity services.

I know they won't be on 91s, but it's just an example train I had!

Just Imagine these are 800s!

Also, using silver as a base colour will mean they hide the dirt well!


So what I'm saying here is basically, whenever any 80x or other train needs repainting roll out an identity like these.

Let me know what you think!

Anglia
View attachment 96662

East Midlands
View attachment 96664

GWR
View attachment 96663


West Coast
View attachment 96665

North Eastern
View attachment 96666

Nice variations on the same theme and a clever move basing it on the old Intercity livery - fewer fees to external designers, etc. and more money to invest on the railways!

 

[jon0844]

I really have no issue with someone wanting to fly a flag (ANY flag), but in the last few months it isn't enough to have one flag.. we need more. We need them everywhere it seems, or else you must hate England/GB/UK and will be quickly told to shove off.

Grant has now just changed his profile picture, and it's sad because I doubt all of these people have suddenly become extra patriotic. I assume the Tory party has told all members to do this, and it's quite laughable.

If GB Railways wants to use red, white and blue, that's absolutely fine. Heck, bring back NSE! But let's not pretend this whole thing hasn't been named as part of a post-Brexit attempt to show how we've taken back control.

 

[XAM2175]

So my concept is to use the same livery design, but in different colours for different regions of intercity services.

I know they won't be on 91s, but it's just an example train I had!

Ooh, these are quite appealing - the West Coast one in particular. The blue and orange offset each other very nicely.

You and some of your "Braveheartista" comtempories may hate the flag and what it stands for, but it's a fact of life and if it it upsets all the ABEs, whether Scottish & Welsh separatists, or self-loathing English Ming's, then that's a good thing.

Thanks - I'll use this to help illustrate why I don't want the union flag to represent my country. But you're more than welcome to keep it!