SWR not serving local travel needs and lack integrated ticket options (Bournemouth area)

[miklcct]

I have moved to a place with less than 10 minutes walk to a SWR station (Bournemouth). A few days ago I had to go to Poole on a schedule in the evening, also not far from the railway station.

I checked the railway website for my trip. The outgoing trip was scheduled 19:40-19:54 arriving Poole, and my target time was arriving 19:55 at the pool in order to make a training starting at 20:00. I believed it would be too rush for me as it was unlikely that I could ran from the station to the pool entrance in 1 minute, and the earlier train was 19:24.

For my return trip, the training was scheduled to end at 21:30, and the next train was 21:44-21:57. That gave me 14 minutes to get out of the pool, get changed, and run to the train station, and the train after that was 23:14. Theoretically it was possible to make the 21:44 return but the risk of missing the train was too large.

For the train fare, a single fare was £4.6 and a return fare was £4.8, without railcard discount. If I bought a railcard for £30, it would pay back after 19 round trips. This would be cheaper compared to buying carnet tickets, which offered only minimal discount when compared to off-peak day returns.

In contrast, if I travel on the slow bus between Bournemouth and Poole, I would have to take the 19:12 departure from Bournemouth Station, which arrived at the terminus at 19:52. As the bus station is closer to the pool than the train station, it would allow me to just make the meeting time at 19:55. Moreover, as I lived in Lansdowne town centre, I only needed to walk 2 minutes to the bus stop, which was itself 2 minutes after Bournemouth Station (getting on at 19:14) compared to 9 minutes to the train station, and I could make the 19:45 return bus, I would get off at 22:18. The bus route was a high-frequency route, running on 5-minute intervals when I made the outgoing trip, and 10-minute intervals on the return trip.

Because I was taking buses frequently in the region to access places not served by train, and the period ticket I had covered that bus route as well, so as a result I took the turtle-slow bus for the trip.

Also, the train service to another direction, i.e. Christchurch from Bournemouth, isn't nice as well. There are only 2 departures every hour weekday off-peak, and they are not on 30-minute intervals.

The stations I have mentioned are major stations in the city. Services at minor stations, such as Hamworthy or Branksome, are even worse. There is only hourly service sometimes a transfer with long layover may even be needed for a short-haul trip, making the train service basically useless. For example, if I search a day return from Hamworthy to Branksome, a transfer with 35-minute layover is needed at Poole on a trip which otherwise only takes 13 minutes without a transfer, making the service completely useless.

Moreover, unlike London, I can't find a period ticket which will cover both buses and trains in the region, allowing me to take a train to Poole from Bournemouth and transfer to a bus for nearby destinations.

To conclude my saying, I feel that SWR don't even bother want to serve passengers. It's no wonder why it is making a great loss.

 

[Starmill]

Places like Bournemouth, in general, don't have useful local rail provision. If they do it's the exception. You find similar in other English medium-sized towns and cities, such as Hull or Norwich.

Nearly everyone drives. If you can't for some reason, you've got to use a local bus.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 May 2021 ==

Moreover, unlike London, I can't find a period ticket which will cover both buses and trains in the region, allowing me to take a train to Poole from Bournemouth and transfer to a bus for nearby destinations.

Again, in general, these don't exist in Great Britain. There are some exceptions of which the London area is one, along with places like Merseyside or the West Midlands.

 

[JonathanH]

To conclude my saying, I feel that SWR don't even bother want to serve passengers. It's no wonder why it is making a great loss.

The railway schedules are always going to be a compromise in a place like Bournemouth and Poole between the needs of long-distance travellers and local ones. The foremost consideration in the timetabling of trains at Bournemouth is a half-hourly frequency to London and running the Cross Country service to Manchester and local service in between.

Let's suppose that you could run a shuttle service simply between Brockenhurst and Poole in the gap between the longer distance trains and it would get in the way of the longer distance services. It simply wouldn't move enough people to be viable because the railway is about moving large numbers of people over relatively long distances rather than short distance.

As you say, the buses between Bournemouth and Poole run at high frequency from early until late. Realistically, they can cater better for short distance travellers at a reasonable cost.

 

[Bald Rick]

Forgive me if this sounds bad, but it sounds like your gripe is that the SWR timetable doesn’t fit with your swimming schedule.

And SWR (pre COVID) was one of the few TOCs that was making good profits for the Network.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have moved to a place with less than 10 minutes walk to a SWR station (Bournemouth). A few days ago I had to go to Poole on a schedule in the evening, also not far from the railway station.

I checked the railway website for my trip. The outgoing trip was scheduled 19:40-19:54 arriving Poole, and my target time was arriving 19:55 at the pool in order to make a training starting at 20:00. I believed it would be too rush for me as it was unlikely that I could ran from the station to the pool entrance in 1 minute, and the earlier train was 19:24.

For my return trip, the training was scheduled to end at 21:30, and the next train was 21:44-21:57. That gave me 14 minutes to get out of the pool, get changed, and run to the train station, and the train after that was 23:14. Theoretically it was possible to make the 21:44 return but the risk of missing the train was too large.

For the train fare, a single fare was £4.6 and a return fare was £4.8, without railcard discount. If I bought a railcard for £30, it would pay back after 19 round trips. This would be cheaper compared to buying carnet tickets, which offered only minimal discount when compared to off-peak day returns.

In contrast, if I travel on the slow bus between Bournemouth and Poole, I would have to take the 19:12 departure from Bournemouth Station, which arrived at the terminus at 19:52. As the bus station is closer to the pool than the train station, it would allow me to just make the meeting time at 19:55. Moreover, as I lived in Lansdowne town centre, I only needed to walk 2 minutes to the bus stop, which was itself 2 minutes after Bournemouth Station (getting on at 19:14) compared to 9 minutes to the train station, and I could make the 19:45 return bus, I would get off at 22:18. The bus route was a high-frequency route, running on 5-minute intervals when I made the outgoing trip, and 10-minute intervals on the return trip.

Because I was taking buses frequently in the region to access places not served by train, and the period ticket I had covered that bus route as well, so as a result I took the turtle-slow bus for the trip.

Also, the train service to another direction, i.e. Christchurch from Bournemouth, isn't nice as well. There are only 2 departures every hour weekday off-peak, and they are not on 30-minute intervals.

The stations I have mentioned are major stations in the city. Services at minor stations, such as Hamworthy or Branksome, are even worse. There is only hourly service sometimes a transfer with long layover may even be needed for a short-haul trip, making the train service basically useless. For example, if I search a day return from Hamworthy to Branksome, a transfer with 35-minute layover is needed at Poole on a trip which otherwise only takes 13 minutes without a transfer, making the service completely useless.

Moreover, unlike London, I can't find a period ticket which will cover both buses and trains in the region, allowing me to take a train to Poole from Bournemouth and transfer to a bus for nearby destinations.

To conclude my saying, I feel that SWR don't even bother want to serve passengers. It's no wonder why it is making a great loss.

absence of a combined ticket is nothing to do with SWR - outside of London these are fairly rare / non existent - this is because the UK govt has never made any serious attempt at integrated transport provision or policy - preferring the notion of 'competition' to drive improvement - competition that rarely exists in a meaningful way

For more insights maybe source this from your local library (if they have not closed it for similar reasons to the above...)

Are Trams Socialist? – Christian Wolmar

 

[miklcct]

Places like Bournemouth, in general, don't have useful local rail provision. If they do its the exception. You find similar in other English medium-sized towns and cities, such as Hull or Norwich.

Nearly everyone drives. If you can't for some reason, you've got to use a local bus.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 May 2021 ==


Again, in general, these don't exist in Great Britain. There are some exceptions of which the London area is one, along with places like Merseyside or the West Midlands.

Driving and parking are a luxury in cities, only the rich can afford it. In order to avoid congestion and air pollution, some local governments are already charging a tax to drive in the city.

The railway schedules are always going to be a compromise in a place like Bournemouth and Poole between the needs of long-distance travellers and local ones.

Let's suppose that you could run a shuttle service simply between Brockenhurst and Poole in the gap between the longer distance trains and it would get in the way of the longer distance services. It simply wouldn't move enough people to be viable because the railway is about moving large numbers of people over relatively long distances rather than short distance.

As you say, the buses between Bournemouth and Poole run at high frequency from early until late. Realistically, they can cater better for short distance travellers at a reasonable cost.

Can't the service patterns be simplifed to an express and a local (possibly a limited-stop as well), i.e., to reduce the number of service patterns to 2 or 3 for every route. One of them is a high-frequency stopping service (15 minutes headway or less along major rail corridors) calling at every station, and another only calls at major stations (possibly hourly service). That is, small stations will have only stopping services provided, with the ability to transfer to express services in major stations.

 

[zwk500]

Connectivity within the Dorset area is an acknowledged weak point in the train service, but is constrained by the need for longer distance services to have useful paths within the infrastructure that exists.

It is being looked at by councils, SWR and NR.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Forgive me if this sounds bad, but it sounds like your gripe is that the SWR timetable doesn’t fit with your swimming schedule.

That's exactly what I was thinking when reading the opening post. Does anyone seriously believe that train frequency between Poole and Bournemouth should be equal to that on London Underground?

 

[JonathanH]

Can't the service patterns be simplifed to an express and a local (possibly a limited-stop as well), i.e., to reduce the number of service patterns to 2 or 3 for every route. One of them is a high-frequency stopping service (15 minutes headway or less along major rail corridors) calling at every station, and another only calls at major stations (possibly hourly service). That is, small stations will have only stopping services provided, with the ability to transfer to express services in major stations.

The problem with the Weymouth line is that it is a long stretch of two-track railway with only one place to reasonably overtake - ie Brockenhurst. Therefore the fast would catch up the stopper on the way. The current service offers a range of services from Southampton to Bournemouth and two reasonably fast services an hour from Weymouth to London.

You simply can't fit a 15-minute frequency stopper and an hourly fast on the route west of Southampton, and that sort of service isn't what brings in the revenue because the fast makes more money for the railway (if the journey time is attreactive) than the stopper (which can't compete with cars or the bus service).

Not everyone is fortunate to live within walking distance of the stations and so a local journey which involves other transport to the station may as well be made on that form of transport for the whole way, whereas to travel to London, it may well make sense to take other transport to the station.

 

[miklcct]

That's exactly what I was thinking when reading the opening post.

I'm feeling that the railway isn't useful for use by everyday commuter as well, making the point of the railway useless.

I lived in a British colony in the past and its mainline railway was built to British standard (with the exception that metric system is used instead of miles). It started as a 5-10 headway service from the city centre to the inner suburbs and 20-minute headway service to the outer suburbs with 6-9 carriages, but now, even with 12 carriages and a 3-minute headway all the way to the outer suburbs, the amount of commuters using the train make the line struggling to keep up with capacity and the government had to encourage bus companies to offer express bus routes operating on the motorway reliefing some of the long-distance passengers, especially those who connect to a short-haul bus in the city centre.

 

[221129]

Can't the service patterns be simplifed to an express and a local (possibly a limited-stop as well), i.e., to reduce the number of service patterns to 2 or 3 for every route. One of them is a high-frequency stopping service (15 minutes headway or less along major rail corridors) calling at every station, and another only calls at major stations (possibly hourly service). That is, small stations will have only stopping services provided, with the ability to transfer to express services in major stations.

They can, as long as the passenger demand is there. Which in the case of this area, there just isn't.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm feeling that the railway isn't useful for use by everyday commuter as well, making the point of the railway useless.

I lived in a British colony in the past and its mainline railway was built to British standard (with the exception that metric system is used instead of miles). It started as a 5-10 headway service from the city centre to the inner suburbs and 20-minute headway service to the outer suburbs with 6-9 carriages, but now, even with 12 carriages and a 3-minute headway all the way to the outer suburbs, the amount of commuters using the train make the line struggling to keep up with capacity and the government had to encourage bus companies to offer express bus routes operating on the motorway reliefing some of the long-distance passengers, especially those who connect to a short-haul bus in the city centre.

But you just aren’t living in the sort of area which will ever have a turn up and go metro service. Hourly stoppers is the norm on the SWR main line until you get up to Basingstoke.

 

[221129]

I'm feeling that the railway isn't useful for use by everyday commuter as well, making the point of the railway useless.

I seem to recall that pre COVID a lot of these trains would be full and standing. Hardly not useful for pointless then.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Moreover, unlike London,

Being honest it sounds like that is your problem! If you are comparing railways and public transport outside London to what is provided in London, then you are always going to be disappointed! Your experience in Bournemouth is basically what the rest of the country has too (in some cases the rest of the country has it worse).

 

[The exile]

Unfortunately, providing a frequent local service at decent intervals over short distances is never going to be high on a mainline railway’s priority list, unless it is put there by some external authority. The drivers of the service are the requirements of longer distance travellers. What most UK urban areas sadly lack is urban rapid transit, sitting between heavy rail and “ all shacks” buses - and of course full integration of timetables and ticketing. Even some of the integrated tickets there are are kept quiet, in case people find out how useful they are!

 

[PTR 444]

As others have said, the line through the BCP conurbation is simply not geared up for a metro-like frequency due to the need to run longer distance services to London which make more money for the railway. Turn-up and go is what Morebus is for, although having lived in the area for most of my life, I agree that it is very slow due to high car use in the area, particularly around Westbourne and Upper Parkstone.

What the conurbation really needs is a tram line between Hamworthy and Christchurch using a mixture of dedicated alignments and street running.

 

[miklcct]

You simply can't fit a 15-minute frequency stopper and an hourly fast on the route west of Southampton, and that sort of service isn't what brings in the revenue because the fast makes more money for the railway (if the journey time is attreactive) than the stopper (which can't compete with cars or the bus service).

The ex-colony I lived in the past, instead, is now reducing the number of long-distance trains and shift them to the new high-speed line, freeing the conventional line for more stopping suburban services. It has also terminated freight service as well, deeming that it was unprofitable.

Can you explain why the stopper can't compete with cars or bus service? If the train stations are located right in the CBD, it should theoretically be the preferred method for commuters to avoid traffic congestion in peak hours if travelling by bus or car. Also, car parking in city centre is at a premium, along with possible congestion charges, so people park-and-ride trains to city centre.

 

[BayPaul]

This one is interesting. As everyone else has said, this is certainly not SWR's fault, and is hardly unique to Bournemouth - in fact in many respects the service level here is better than for a typical town of this size...

However. Is the OP being unreasonable? Probably not. For me, the lack of integration between bus and rail outside London (and some PTE areas) is the biggest failing of public transport in the UK. And in a large urban area like this, especially one that has a fairly linear distribution along the coast, it would surely not be impossible to slot some short-distance stopping trains between the London services, in order to provide something approaching a 15 minute metro-frequency, thus making a proper, useful turn-up-and-go style service. One nearby example where this does work is the Coastway services from Brighton, cleverly intermeshed services give a 10-15 minute frequency service to most stations, with the individual services short enough that long distance trains don't catch up the stoppers. It isn't perfect, one significant issue is that the Brighton-Southampton service is slower than ideal, but it is an option that does encourage rail use for shorter journeys like this.

 

[JonathanH]

Even some of the integrated tickets there are are kept quiet, in case people find out how useful they are!

One of the problems with integrated tickets is agreeing who should take the revenue hit to make them useful.

For £3.70, you can buy a moreBus ticket to ride the m1/m2 trunk route all day. This is less than the train fare already, and I suspect profitable, in normal circumstances, for moreBus. The all BCP ticket is £4.30. There is a combined moreBus / Yellow Buses ticket sponsored by BCP council for £5.

For the integrated ticket to be worthwhile for either the Railway or moreBus to offer, it is going to have to be more than this. Even if it were £8, I suspect moreBus would get less than £4.30 from it.

 

[zwk500]

I'm feeling that the railway isn't useful for use by everyday commuter as well, making the point of the railway useless.

I lived in a British colony in the past and its mainline railway was built to British standard (with the exception that metric system is used instead of miles). It started as a 5-10 headway service from the city centre to the inner suburbs and 20-minute headway service to the outer suburbs with 6-9 carriages, but now, even with 12 carriages and a 3-minute headway all the way to the outer suburbs, the amount of commuters using the train make the line struggling to keep up with capacity and the government had to encourage bus companies to offer express bus routes operating on the motorway reliefing some of the long-distance passengers, especially those who connect to a short-haul bus in the city centre.

One thing to bear in mind is that the railway takes a rather indirect route through the conurbation and is often not well sited for people's ultimate destination. Which means that a full-blown metro service is never going to be properly utilised. Getting the stoppers a more even time apart is currently being looked at, as is increasing the number of services providing local in-conurbation connectivity. However both are likely to require costly infrastructure changes.

 

[JonathanH]

And in a large urban area like this, especially one that has a fairly linear distribution along the coast, it would surely not be impossible to slot some short-distance stopping trains between the London services, in order to provide something approaching a 15 minute metro-frequency, thus making a proper, useful turn-up-and-go style service.

Bournemouth station isn't in a great location so the headline journey times need to include the time it takes to walk into the centre of the town. By the time you do that, you probably aren't far off the bus time between Poole bus station and the centre of Bournemouth.

You also need to go east to Brockenhurst for a turn back facility, and still have the problem of no overtaking facility. This possibly means slower services to Weymouth. (I'll note in passing that the MP for Weymouth isn't keen on current journey times for trains from Weymouth to London to the extent he stood up in parliament yesterday to request services to London via Yeovil because he thinks they would be quicker.)

Richard Drax
(South Dorset) (Con)
Faster trains to London from Weymouth in my constituency will be a key infrastructure improvement if we are to create more jobs and prosperity. The line via Poole and Bournemouth operates to capacity, so restoring a short stretch of track to the south-east of Yeovil Junction to link up with the Salisbury line would do the trick. Will my right hon. Friend reassure my constituents that this easy improvement is a large blip on his radar?

While discussion of this proposal is clearly off topic, it does relevantly demonstrate the different demands on the timings of trains through the BCP corridor.

 

[The exile]

That’s one of the reasons we need regulatory bodies: If you want to operate a public transport service anywhere within area xyz, here is a list of minimum requirements, one of which is membership of a fully integrated ticketing system

 

[Starmill]

Driving and parking are a luxury in cities, only the rich can afford it.

Unfortunately the reality is that lots of British cities are designed with driving and parking in mind and public transport is poor quality. This has been the case for many years and is unlikely to change. People on average and below average incomes are still very likely to have cars.

 

[zwk500]

This possibly means slower services to Weymouth. (I'll note in passing that the MP for Weymouth isn't keen on current journey times for trains from Weymouth to London

Slower services between London and Bournemouth are not politically acceptable, let alone London and Weymouth.

to the extent he stood up in parliament yesterday to request services to London via Yeovil because he thinks they would be quicker.)

Because the double reversal, single line and Salsibury aren't problems at all...?

 

[Starmill]

some local governments are already charging a tax to drive in the city.

Really? Where? There are lots of air quality related charges in place or proposed but I'm not aware of any local taxes on driving specifically outside London?

 

[yorksrob]

Had the Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway been rationalised instead of closed in 1966, there might now be an additional service between Bournemouth and Poole continuing North to Bath. It's not inconceivable to imagine that this might have been concentrated on Bournemouth Central station.

 

[miklcct]

Really? Where? There are lots of air quality related charges in place or proposed but I'm not aware of any local taxes on driving specifically outside London?

Currently London and Durham

 

[WesternLancer]

Currently London and Durham

So basically the UKs only mega city and a small area of a small city where a fairly negligible sum is charged at off peak times, that exempts people who live there, and seems to have / need only one point of entry..
A sum less than the cost of some daily newspapers, and not a sum "only the rich can afford" by any means

Durham Peninsula: "There is a daily charge of £2 for entering the zone between 10.00am and 4.00pm, Monday to Saturday. There is no charge on Sundays or bank holidays."

I think the thread confuses Bournemouth with the levels of public transport provision in either say Switzerland or London. Whilst I would very much like such places in England to have that sort of provision I am confident that ideology / taxation / transport policy / local government policy (there is no regional government of course) and public attitudes to all of those areas means this can be filed in the 'aint gonna happen' file. Sadly.

Would a bike be better option? For those able to use one of course, which is not everyone of course.

 

[vikingdriver]

Slower services between London and Bournemouth are not politically acceptable, let alone London and Weymouth.

Because the double reversal, single line and Salsibury aren't problems at all...?

He spoke about sorting out the chord from the Weymouth line straight in to Yeovil Junction. Looks like the earthworks are there, not sure if there was ever any track? Might have to turf the heritage railway out though.

 

[miklcct]

Would a bike be better option? For those able to use one of course, which is not everyone of course.

Unfortunately Bournemouth is not a flat city that I need to push the bike on the roads, and the promenade isn't a great place to ride on, when 20 knots wind is blowing into you and the promenade full of sand. And riding on the promenade is prohibited in July - August 10 am - 6 pm as well.

Fortunately there is still good local bus service for shorter trips in the region.

And what I refer to "only the rich can afford" is in general, not specifically aimed at congestion charges. It applies to driving in cities in general (I lived in a city where the government tried to propose congestion charges but it was unrealistic because there was no way for drivers to bypass it without passing through the city centre). When a parking space in the city centre is generally more than £300 per month only the rich can afford it.