Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

[riceuten]

I notice on Herts CC Intalink site Arriva have registered a couple of new / changed services using Better Buses Funding.

Sunday services on the 97 & 98 between Hitchin & Stotfold / Baldock which makes some sense.

And a new route 324 (using an old number) between Ware / Hertford and Welwyn GC, which is nuts. That's already got the hourly (2 hourly on Sunday) 724 - there really isn't *that much* demand for travel between Welwyn & Hertford. Between Hertford & Hatfield there is demand because of the UoH campuses, so bemused about this one.

If I was looking at better uses for such funding I'd be more inclined to look at some of the other services which have been reduced in recent years e.g. St Albans - Colney Heath / Brookmans Park, St Albans - Redbourn - Dunstable or possibly some of the town networks - Stevenage, St Albans or Watford.

Being a Stevenage (and Herts) resident, I agree with you with regard to the 324. My guess is that they have analysed the 724 route, and rather than run short journeys, up comes a new route instead. I'm mystified as to why a parallel route on the 97 and 98 between Hitchin and Baldock, when the train makes a similar journey. I'd be more in favour of linking places from different lines rather than shadowing the existing train service.

It's quite difficult to ascertain what could feasibly be introduced or reinstated that might conceivably make money or be commercially viable nowadays. My own personal preference would be a faster version of the 635 running to Hatfield, Hemel and Watford - sort of like a more northern version of the 724. But when Uno ran the 634 that went Stevenage ---> (fast) Hatfield ---> (fast) Hemel, hardly anyone took it.

We have to accept the reality that the main drivers for bus travel in our area are people commuting to the station(s), OAPs and school buses

 

[MotCO]

And a new route 324 (using an old number) between Ware / Hertford and Welwyn GC, which is nuts. That's already got the hourly (2 hourly on Sunday) 724 - there really isn't *that much* demand for travel between Welwyn & Hertford. Between Hertford & Hatfield there is demand because of the UoH campuses, so bemused about this one.

Perhaps they have deregistered the 724?

 

[riceuten]

May 2021

This is a summary of the forthcoming changes to local bus services in Hertfordshire in May 2021

www.intalink.org.uk

324 Ware/Hertford - Welwyn Garden City
Arriva
New service operating hourly Mondays to Sundays between Hertford and Welwyn Garden City. Service 324 works together with Service 724 using Better Bus Funding to improve links between Hertford and Welwyn Garden City.
From 30.05.21

 

[A0]

Being a Stevenage (and Herts) resident, I agree with you with regard to the 324. My guess is that they have analysed the 724 route, and rather than run short journeys, up comes a new route instead. I'm mystified as to why a parallel route on the 97 and 98 between Hitchin and Baldock, when the train makes a similar journey. I'd be more in favour of linking places from different lines rather than shadowing the existing train service.

It's quite difficult to ascertain what could feasibly be introduced or reinstated that might conceivably make money or be commercially viable nowadays. My own personal preference would be a faster version of the 635 running to Hatfield, Hemel and Watford - sort of like a more northern version of the 724. But when Uno ran the 634 that went Stevenage ---> (fast) Hatfield ---> (fast) Hemel, hardly anyone took it.

We have to accept the reality that the main drivers for bus travel in our area are people commuting to the station(s), OAPs and school buses

The Hitchin - Baldock buses always used to do quite well. Don't forget Hitchin station is nowhere near the town centre, go towards the far end of Cambridge Road and you're almost halfway between Hitchin & Letchworth stations, going out of Letchworth it can serve Sainsbury's and at Baldock the town centre and Tesco's.

There isn't demand for "fast" services to Hemel or Watford. Not many people travel from Welwyn to Hemel or vice versa, those that do ate probably doing so for work and the bus will never be viable given the distribution of housing and workplaces.

Perhaps they have deregistered the 724?

Unlikely.

The only thing they *might* have looked at would be running fast from Hertford to Hatfield and removing WGC from the route - which would speed it up a bit.

There are no shortage of buses going from WGC to Hatfield and St Albans. Not sure how much demand there is from WGC to Watford nowadays.

Going east would be the loss, hence a WGC - Hertford / Ware bus, bit if they were doing that I'd have expected it to be announced at the same time.

 

[MedwayValiant]

Is this 324 going to use the same route as the 724 between WGC and Hertford?

Running non stop along the B1000 - which is scarcely more than a country lane - between Panshanger and Sele Farm has always seemed a bit odd. It might be better to use the old 724 route via Birch Green and Hertingfordbury.

 

[A0]

Is this 324 going to use the same route as the 724 between WGC and Hertford?

Running non stop along the B1000 - which is scarcely more than a country lane - between Panshanger and Sele Farm has always seemed a bit odd. It might be better to use the old 724 route via Birch Green and Hertingfordbury.

I wondered that.

That said, Birch Green & Hertingfordbury are regularly served by Uno's 641 service (every 2 hours) - neither are very big places. I never quite understood why the 724 got re-routed away from them and via the B1000 - time wise it's probably neutral, though it would have stopped the 724 being used for local journeys in WGC when travelling through Panshanger I guess. Back in the days before Birch Green etc were bypassed it could be slow along there, especially at peak times, but they've been by-passed for many years now.

The only other option would be they're looking at picking up the old 388 route via Tewin, but given that was always an HCC contract (since the mid 80s), I'd be very surprised if that's what they do.

 

[GusB]

WGC? Please do not use jargon in your posts without defining it the first time you use it. Thank you.

 

[MedwayValiant]

Serving Panshanger is presumably a major objective of this 324, since there isn't really anywhere else of any size between Welwyn Garden City and Hertford. Panshanger has never had a very good Sunday service, and if the 324 is to be hourly seven days a week - as the Intalink announcement suggests that is, although no timetable has been published yet - that would represent the best Sunday service it's ever had. The old 388 routing via Tewin would be an eccentric choice, and I don't see it as any more likely than A0wen does.

There was a route numbered 324 back in London Country days. I'm not quite old enough ever to have travelled it, but I think it went Welwyn GC to Hertford via Birch Green, Hertford to Hoddesdon via Hertford Heath, then Hoddesdon to Waltham Cross via the old 310 routing (ie not via St Margaret's). That one left Welwyn GC via Heronswood Road and the Ganett roundabout rather than via Panshanger, but that is one corridor in Welywn GC which doesn't need any more buses so I'd be surprised if that is the plan.

 

[riceuten]

The forthcoming timetable for the 324 is available if you google "324 timetable welwyn garden city" and click on the "Geopunk" link offered. I'm not going to insert the link myself, as I will get some aspect of it wrong and the post will be deleted.

 

[A0]

Serving Panshanger is presumably a major objective of this 324, since there isn't really anywhere else of any size between Welwyn Garden City and Hertford. Panshanger has never had a very good Sunday service, and if the 324 is to be hourly seven days a week - as the Intalink announcement suggests that is, although no timetable has been published yet - that would represent the best Sunday service it's ever had. The old 388 routing via Tewin would be an eccentric choice, and I don't see it as any more likely than A0wen does.

There was a route numbered 324 back in London Country days. I'm not quite old enough ever to have travelled it, but I think it went Welwyn GC to Hertford via Birch Green, Hertford to Hoddesdon via Hertford Heath, then Hoddesdon to Waltham Cross via the old 310 routing (ie not via St Margaret's). That one left Welwyn GC via Heronswood Road and the Ganett roundabout rather than via Panshanger, but that is one corridor in Welywn GC which doesn't need any more buses so I'd be surprised if that is the plan.

I notice one of my posts got removed... not sure why.

But to restate - the only logical part is serving Panshanger, which isn't currently on a Sunday, but I'm surprised that a Ware / Hertford service is felt to be the best way to do that. I'd have thought a Sunday service on the 401 would have been more logical - or something running between Welwyn and Hatfield. Hertford's not exactly a destination during the week, let alone a Sunday.

The only timetable @riceuten has posted is particularly confusing......

 

[riceuten]

Panshanger IIRC is the council estate to the south of Welwyn, which I guess may need a service more than most. Hertford has/had better shopping than Hatfield, I guess.

I make no claims for the timetable I posted - that's just what was available.

 

[A0]

Panshanger IIRC is the council estate to the south of Welwyn, which I guess may need a service more than most. Hertford has/had better shopping than Hatfield, I guess.

I make no claims for the timetable I posted - that's just what was available.

I don't think you know the area very well.

Whilst Panshanger started out as a 60s development with social housing, most of that is now in private hands and the additional bits built in the 80s and since is all private. I'm not sure it's got the most social housing in Welwyn GC - I'd bet on Peartree, Woodhall or Haldens having that.

And in terms of shopping - no chance. Hertford's got pretty much nothing. Welwyn GC has 3 of the main supermarkets, John Lewis, M&S, WH Smith, Boots etc. Hatfield's got large Tesco, Asda, B&M as well as the Galleria Factory Outlet.

I grew up in Welwyn GC - I don't think we *ever* went to Hertford for shopping - Stevenage, St Albans, Watford, Luton in addition to Welwyn GC or Hatfield.

 

[MedwayValiant]

I grew up in Welwyn GC as well, and I'd agree that I never went to Hertford very much. The one thing I did occasionally go there for was drinking, since in those days there wasn't much opportunity to do it in Welwyn GC - but it's not really the job of the bus industry to facilitate that, and a route with no evening service doesn't.

If that slightly mysterious timetable is correct, the 324 routing is odd. It's the 1980s G4 routing via Bridge Road East and Ridgeway as far as the "Sir Fred's roundabout" (I went there!), then turn right down Black Fan Road and pass Morrisons, then non stop via the A414 and Thieves Lane to Sele Farm. So it doesn't really serve Panshanger, it doesn't serve any of the villages, and it's not obvious who it's for.

If the bottom line was that some money was available for a new service in the Welwyn GC area, they might have done better to reinvent the old G33/G34 evening services, and have them run on Sundays as well.

 

[A0]

I grew up in Welwyn GC as well, and I'd agree that I never went to Hertford very much. The one thing I did occasionally go there for was drinking, since in those days there wasn't much opportunity to do it in Welwyn GC - but it's not really the job of the bus industry to facilitate that, and a route with no evening service doesn't.

If that slightly mysterious timetable is correct, the 324 routing is odd. It's the 1980s G4 routing via Bridge Road East and Ridgeway as far as the "Sir Fred's roundabout" (I went there!), then turn right down Black Fan Road and pass Morrisons, then non stop via the A414 and Thieves Lane to Sele Farm. So it doesn't really serve Panshanger, it doesn't serve any of the villages, and it's not obvious who it's for.

If the bottom line was that some money was available for a new service in the Welwyn GC area, they might have done better to reinvent the old G33/G34 evening services, and have them run on Sundays as well.

That or simply run the 401 (which is more or less the current version of the G4) in that it covers Daniells, Moors Walk etc, as a limited Sunday service.

I really don't get the rationale for this 324, unless it's part of a longer term plan to re-route the 724 away from Welwyn GC.

Just to give you an idea - the current 724 takes 40 minutes to cover Hertford Bus Station to Hatfield Town Centre, going via Welwyn GC. Compare that with Uno's 641 which takes 25 minutes serving Birch Green, Letty Green then running on the A414 to Hatfield.

On the basis the 724 is run out of Harlow - most of the time the turnaround at Heathrow is circa 25 minutes, though I wonder often a late incoming service delays the return ? Avoiding Welwyn GC would save 15 mins or add 15 minutes contingency depending on how you look at it.

Going west from Welwyn GC the 300/301/302 (whatever Arriva have numbered it this week) operates every 15 minutes from Welwyn GC to Hatfield and St Albans. The connection to Watford and Heathrow would be lost, but I suspect the number of people travelling that far isn't significant.

The gap is eastwards where there isn't another bus from Welwyn GC to Hertford, so the 324 would maintain the Ware, Hertford - Welwyn GC link. Again, the link to Harlow would be lost, but I'm going to bet that isn't particularly significant either.

 

[plebb11]

The timetables for weekday 324, Sunday 97/98 and new evening 500 Watford-aylesbury can be found at:

Arriva Bus

www.arrivabus.co.uk

The chalkwell 360/361/362 timetables for the replacement of arriva sheerness depot services 360/361 can be found here:

Chalkwell Garage & Coach Hire

bustimes.org

 

[spuddie]

I reckon those Mercedes Sprinter minibuses they can't find a home for will be big enough for the 324.

 

[A0]

I reckon those Mercedes Sprinter minibuses they can't find a home for will be big enough for the 324.

And even then they'll be providing capacity about 90% more than is needed.

 

[cnjb8]

Deutsche Bahn plots Arriva break up

Article about DB starting Arriva sale. I can't quote it though as it requires a subscription

 

[MotCO]

Deutsche Bahn plots Arriva break up

Article about DB starting Arriva sale. I can't quote it though as it requires a subscription

Happy to oblige!

Deutsche Bahn plots Arriva break up​

The break up comes amid speculation that a starting gun has been fired on a wave of dealmaking in the UK bus market


By Oliver Gill, Chief Business Correspondent 23 May 2021 • 9:00am

One of the world’s biggest public transport operators is to be broken up as speculation grows that Britain’s bus industry is primed for a wave of dealmaking.
Arriva has been split into wanted and unwanted divisions by its German owner Deutsche Bahn following a review of the business last year, The Sunday Telegraph can disclose.
Bosses are now preparing to open talks with bidders for unwanted “non-core” parts of the business.
Arriva’s UK arm - which runs nearly 6,000 buses and three rail operators including London Overground, and employs more than 16,000 people - is seen as “core” and will be sold off or floated at a later date, according to industry sources.
Deutsche Bahn put the wider Arriva Group up for sale more than two years ago. It operates across 14 European countries and has more than 60,000 staff.
The German state rail firm was hoping to fetch £3.4bn to pay down debts.

A deal with US buyout company Carlyle collapsed late in 2019, prompting bosses to switch to floating a minority stake in Amsterdam last summer. Plans to go public were put on ice as the pandemic hit.
It is understood that non-core parts of Arriva will now be sold off piecemeal over the next two to three years, with core divisions such as the UK arm then either floated or sold as a group.
The break up comes amid speculation that a starting gun has been fired on a wave of dealmaking in the UK bus market.
Investors see the market as increasingly attractive following Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s decision to invest £3bn in buses, including a pledge to buy 4,000 zero-emissions vehicles.
City sources said that a sharp decline in the value of London-listed transport companies such as FirstGroup, Stagecoach and Go-Ahead has increased the potential for operators to merge - though any such move would likely attract the attention of competition watchdogs.



Sir Brian Souter and Dame Ann Gloag, the Scottish siblings who founded Stagecoach, began selling off their 27pc stake in the FTSE 250 operator at the end of last month. The pair said that they intend to reduce their combined stake to 5pc over the next decade. A source said: “They are basically saying come and give us a ring.
“They are basically saying we’re not going to take [Stagecoach] private, it’s for somebody else to do.”
FirstGroup is planning to use most of the proceeds from the £3.3bn sale of its US arms to pay down debts and retain cash in the hope that it can capitalise on a better outlook in the UK as Covid restrictions lift.
However, the sale is facing opposition from two of the operator’s biggest investors, with a vote on the deal later this week expected to go down to the wire.
The Telegraph understands that Hong Kong-based activist Oasis Management - which led a bitter campaign against the board of Premier Foods three years ago - has taken a stake in FirstGroup and also plans to vote against the FirstGroup board.
A spokesman for Deutsche Bahn (DB) said: “Last year, we undertook a strategic review alongside Arriva, to ensure the company can continue to thrive and grow in the future.
“This review informed the investment strategy for the mid-term, with markets evaluated as ‘core’ or ‘non-core’. UK bus and rail, as well as a number of other European markets, have been evaluated as core and there will be no change. The review was the right thing to do in the context of the global pandemic and the challenging market conditions we face.
“We are in the early stages of exploring potential divestment opportunities of our non-core markets, but there are no firm plans or decisions at this time. DB’s goal remains to sell Arriva subject to favourable economic conditions.”

 

[Surreyman]

Deutsche Bahn plots Arriva break up

Article about DB starting Arriva sale. I can't quote it though as it requires a subscription

I can't read the article either but look forward to this happening.
I assume that DB would like to sell the whole Europe wide operation (Buses & Trains) to a single buyer.
Arriva UK bus is very much the odd one out of all the european bus operations operating (London excepted) in a deregulated market.
Who would have the financial muscle to buy? And who would have the confidence in a current and post Covid world?

 

[jacksmithyton]

Let's be honest here, there's parts of their 'non-core' business that nobody wants. Who in the bus industry would want to invest in places such as Hertfordshire and Buckinghamshire?

 

[markymark2000]

Let's be honest here, there's parts of their 'non-core' business that nobody wants. Who in the bus industry would want to invest in places such as Hertfordshire and Buckinghamshire?

One mans trash is another mans treasure.

Sometimes, a change in attitude can make an area thrive out. Hertfordshire and Bucks have potential but as with everything, you will only get out what you put in. Arriva put nothing in, they get very little out.

 

[MotCO]

I assume that DB would like to sell the whole Europe wide operation (Buses & Trains) to a single buyer.

The full article I quoted above says:

One of the world’s biggest public transport operators is to be broken up as speculation grows that Britain’s bus industry is primed for a wave of dealmaking.
Arriva has been split into wanted and unwanted divisions by its German owner Deutsche Bahn following a review of the business last year, The Sunday Telegraph can disclose.
Bosses are now preparing to open talks with bidders for unwanted “non-core” parts of the business.
Arriva’s UK arm - which runs nearly 6,000 buses and three rail operators including London Overground, and employs more than 16,000 people - is seen as “core” and will be sold off or floated at a later date, according to industry sources.

 

[Typhoon]

Route One has announced that Chalkwell are taking over routes 360 and 361 from 12th July, the day after the Arriva registration expires.

Chalkwell acts after Arriva confirms Sheerness closure plans - routeone

Chalkwell has moved to save two services that would otherwise be lost after Arriva confirmed proposals for the closure of Sheerness depot.

www.route-one.net

Chalkwell also taking over route 367 from 12th July.

The new 367 service will replace the existing service almost like-for-like.

Not surprising as it is a Kent County Council route, I guess just some fine-tuning with timings.

Source: https://chalkwell.co.uk/367-bus-service/

 

[cnjb8]

Happy to oblige!

Thank you!

 

[A0]

One mans trash is another mans treasure.

Sometimes, a change in attitude can make an area thrive out. Hertfordshire and Bucks have potential but as with everything, you will only get out what you put in. Arriva put nothing in, they get very little out.

Bit in bold - not really true or fair.

Herts and Bucks is difficult operating territory. When Blazefield sold Sovereign there was a Competition Commission investigation which approached the other major operators (First, Go Ahead, Stagecoach), none objected as all basically said they weren't looking at that area for expansion.

Blazefield stated they couldn't get the margins to the level they were used to operating elsewhere.

Only Uno seem to be doing OK in Herts, more I suspect due to their providing services for the University students - so have something of a captive audience. They're not, for example, trying to operate town services in Stevenage or Hemel. Centrebus have just closed their Stevenage depot and surrendered a bunch of County Council contracts in the process and have consolidated their operations to Luton. Bear in mind at one time Centrebus took over Sovereign's St Albans operation, which they subsequently sold to Uno.

I'm not sure Go Ahead, Stagecoach or First would have made a better fist of operating in Herts and Bucks - Stagecoach could easily have tried it from their position, but over time retreated into Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire - and Stagecoach aren't slow to exploit a commercial opportunity.

 

[overthewater]

I still think First should look at parts of Arriva and think we could add to the business, ie parts like Derby etc

Its anyone's guess who / what / when parts of the UK operations will be sold still.

 

[markymark2000]

Bit in bold - not really true or fair.

Herts and Bucks is difficult operating territory. When Blazefield sold Sovereign there was a Competition Commission investigation which approached the other major operators (First, Go Ahead, Stagecoach), none objected as all basically said they weren't looking at that area for expansion.

Blazefield stated they couldn't get the margins to the level they were used to operating elsewhere.

Only Uno seem to be doing OK in Herts, more I suspect due to their providing services for the University students - so have something of a captive audience. They're not, for example, trying to operate town services in Stevenage or Hemel. Centrebus have just closed their Stevenage depot and surrendered a bunch of County Council contracts in the process and have consolidated their operations to Luton. Bear in mind at one time Centrebus took over Sovereign's St Albans operation, which they subsequently sold to Uno.

I'm not sure Go Ahead, Stagecoach or First would have made a better fist of operating in Herts and Bucks - Stagecoach could easily have tried it from their position, but over time retreated into Bedfordshire and Cambridgeshire - and Stagecoach aren't slow to exploit a commercial opportunity.

All that I can say is that looking at the industry currently, there is proof that if the right people are in charge, buses can get decent use.
Arriva hasn't put anything really in and hasn't got much out. Centrebus has ran mostly tenders and accross their business, there isn't much of a growth mindset. Infact, most of the network is tendered and commercial sides not changed very much. From what I can see of Centrebus as well, they hardly put in a lot of money either so again, get little out.


I'm not saying that anyone else would do better but there is certainly potential to get more out of the network. Uno didn't need to be created and if the competitors were good enough, Uno wouldn't be as big as it is since the unis would have opted for others as the contractor for routes. That said, the unis there haven't been fair really either seemingly banning other operators from the grounds which could be a big difference between being viable and not.

I have to disagree with you on the Stagecoach comment. That is very much down to local management. Some local management with Stagecoach are dismal and have missed many, many commercial opportunities. I speak from experience with some Stagecoach management. The bosses tend to do very little unless they think they can gain mega bucks basically overnight. Minimal effort, maximum reward.

Just because the other operators said that they weren't looking for expansion into the area, that could be down to many reasons. There is no point in anyone starting up there when the network is so saturated by another company, the tickets wouldn't be value for money and don't forget, Arriva play silly sods when it comes to competition running buses all over the place just to try and make you give up the network so eventually, you could have paid up for a bus network and then Arriva take it all away from you by competing. Nowadays, Arriva don't care and so the market in these towns is very different and has been killed off by Arriva and their decisions on investment.

If someone was in there with the right attitude and it wasn't overseen by Arrivas silly head office, it wouldn't be half a bad. Arrivas management cause about 90% of the issues. Put the right people in the right places, listen to the passengers, put the work in to resolve the issues, you get rewards. Arrivas management have no accountability. They make decisions then hide away in their offices then don't come out until it's time to promote something. Until Arriva start listening to passengers and management are held accountable to the passengers, nothing will change.

Someone else would have done better with the right team and right investment. Sorry but they would.

 

[A0]

I still think First should look at parts of Arriva and think we could add to the business, ie parts like Derby etc

Its anyone's guess who / what / when parts of the UK operations will be sold still.

I think First have got enough basket cases in among their estate without adding to them by buying bits of Arriva.

Not sure why you think Derby of all places would be a good fit for First in any case ? It's not in close proximity to any of their other operations (Leicester, S Yorks or Potteries) ? More likely would be Arriva's Colchester and Southend operations, which would probably be a good fit with First Essex (formerly Eastern National) and possibly Arriva Yorkshire to go with First S Yorks / First West Yorks.

 

[overthewater]

I think First have got enough basket cases in among their estate without adding to them by buying bits of Arriva.

Not sure why you think Derby of all places would be a good fit for First in any case ? It's not in close proximity to any of their other operations (Leicester, S Yorks or Potteries) ? More likely would be Arriva's Colchester and Southend operations, which would probably be a good fit with First Essex (formerly Eastern National) and possibly Arriva Yorkshire to go with First S Yorks / First West Yorks.

I dont think First has that many if any basket cases left? they do seem to have turned a conner. First wouldn't be allowed Arriva's Colchester and Southend operations ( would say Go-ahead has a better chance) , since there in competition its also why Leicester is no go.

To be fair Arriva isn't a basket case over all, it has some good operations and with a bit of TLC could easily make good returns.