Class 465 and 466 set for storage/scrap: possible uses for them in future?

[Paul Jones 88]

Would it be possible to give the 465/466 the same treatment as the modernised 321s at Eastern Region?

 

[Roast Veg]

Thats been rumoured before... They're not actually suitable for SN Metro in their current setup. (They'd need DOO Equipment added or shortened to 4 Car - for use with existing Mirrors/ Monitors).>>

They need interior work anyway - could be rolled in with CCTV easily.

 

[Roger B]

466024, 465236 & 465246 were the ones moved from Grove Park to Gillingham yesterday, 466033 was out in service this morning and is now at Slade Green Depot

Many thanks Class 466

 

[Mikey C]

Would it be possible to give the 465/466 the same treatment as the modernised 321s at Eastern Region?

Or even the Chiltern 165s in terms of the bodywork

 

[D365]

There are issues with the Networkers, but I'm slightly baffled by the idea that they are time expired and ready for the scrapyard when their diesel cousins are in perfect nick and will continue in service for years. The Chiltern 165s even have very effective aircon fitted

You’ve answered your own post - the Turbos have had money spent on them!

They’re also 100% different under the solebar and don’t share the Kent Networkers’ Achilles Heel of noisy traction electronics.

(by which I mean electro-magnetic immunisation, not audible noise!)

 

[Roast Veg]

(by which I mean electro-magnetic immunisation, not audible noise!)

Indeed this is a feature as far as I'm concerned.

 

[JaJaWa]

Some more details in this blog post here: https://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.u...tworker-trains-heading-for-storage-and-scrap/

Southeastern Networker trains heading for storage and scrap

It’s appears that the end is nigh for a number of Southeastern’s venerable Networker trains which are due to head to storage and possibly scrap within days.

The trains have been the bedrock of Network Southeast, Connex and Southeastern since the early 1990s.

In their place will come 30 trains from South West Railway. Some are already on test with Southeastern.

When the announcement was made that 30 Class 707 trains were to transfer to Southeastern, some appeared to expect an increase in overall stock, though even before the pandemic this seemed unlikely as Southeastern lack stabling and depot space.

There simply isn’t room to store trains at Slade Green, Plumstead, Grove Park and other locations. Plumstead would be possible to extend as Crossrail have vacated their temporary base just to the north, but so far no announcement.

There is work to bring back into use a former Southeastern depot not recently in use out in Kent at Chart Leacon – but this is some way from Metro territory and whether it has any impact on Metro routes remains to be seen.

Capacity

What seems likely is they’ll be no net increase in carriages but a slight capacity uplift as new trains are more suited to Metro work and ditch the rows of three seats.

The capacity of a 10-car Networker is 1,095 passengers. The capacity of a 10-car 707 is 1,190.

What will be key now is whether 30 are sent off-lease (Southeastern like other franchises do not own trains) and it’s a like-for-like swap, or a lower (or even higher) number go.

If lower than 30 leave there’s scope for some limited increase in 12-car services. Where they’ll be stored is the big question.

The train’s future has been in limbo for years. While less than 30 years old – when many trains are expected to last up to 40 years – they never saw any sort of comprehensive internal refurbish for three decades.

The vast majority of UK trains get a major refurbishment every 10-20 years. Southeastern Metro stock never did as the Department for Transport never requested or specified it, and for much of the past decade the franchise has been on short term life support with the DfT making various mistakes with franchising. Thus we saw minimal investment.

Most of the stock is now clapped out and not particularly enticing to passengers. Bubbles aplenty on floors, fittings are dirty, seats are loose and there’s a pervading feel of being unloved. Add in largely unstaffed or minimally staffed stations and the network is far from what it could – and should – be in offering a real alternative to car use in London.

Commuters may be forced to use them – but leisure users were hardly being encouraged to switch. That market is perhaps more key now than ever.

Platform and power upgrades

One issue with the new stock is that they’re limited to 10 carriages, while Networkers can run in 12-car formation (though are unable to stop at certain stations when running in 12-car). A 12-car Networker easily beats a 10-car Class 707 with 1,410 passengers v 1,190.

Network Rail spent tens of millions over the past decade extending platforms for 12-cas and upgrading electricity supply for 12-car running – which new trains will not make use of, and a lack of depot space could ensure there’s few Networkers freed up by new trains to utilise new infrastructure either.

In the short term with passenger numbers depressed it’s not a big issue, but in five years? It’s not a secret that the DfT have previously embarrassed themselves with projected population and housing plans in south east London and north west Kent.

They wildly underestimated future housing growth during a previous franchise process in 2017 – which was later scrapped. This site highlighted the discrepancy, and former Erith and Belvedere MP Teresa Pearce wrote to the DfT who conceded they’d made a mistake.

The DfT initially stated 36,000 homes when the real figure was 68,400. That was based on 2015/16 housing numbers. Now many areas have been revised upwards. The 68,400 figure stated 5,000 homes at Charlton Riverside. It’s now 8,000 in the latest London Plan.

There’s certainly no shortage of new homes in places like Kidbrooke and Lewisham which have also seen increases since 2015. Are the DfT on top of it? It’s a regular occurrence to see major planning applications for hundreds of homes receive no feedback from either Network Rail or Southeastern. TfL almost always engage and respond regarding pressure on tubes, DLR and buses. They seek mitigation measures and funding. Rail doesn’t.

It now looks like the Bakerloo Line extension to Lewisham is going nowhere – and even it it had been approved was not due to open for nine years. We could now be looking at the mid-2030s at the earliest.

And then there’s last weeks demand by central Government for TfL to cut £730 million from their budget annually by 2023. Does this put at risk planned frequency upgrades on the DLR Lewisham branch?

It’s be quite some combo if the Bakerloo doesn’t happen, DLR upgrades scaled back and no net additional rolling stock arrives for Southeastern Metro for some years to come. I’m not sure a small capacity uplift from switching 10-car Networkers to 10-car Class 707 will suffice.

Networkers used by Southeastern date from the early 1990s ad were built by two manufacturers to almost identical spec – but not quite. Some have internal air cooling (not air conditioning) above seats, for example, whilst others do not. Some (Class 465/1 and 465/2) had their traction replaced a decade ago with new Hitachi equipment, while the 465/2 and 465/9 did not. The latter types are likely to comprise the bulk of those to be scrapped or sent to storage.

A shame really, as the 465/9s have first class sections and both have a far better interior ambience through lighter materials. The 465/0 and /1 are really pretty gloomy and unloved.

On the bright side the new trains will have air con which will be welcome. Networkers of course do not, and other stock on SE metro – the Class 376 – was the last stock ordered in the UK without air con fitted.

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[Class 466]

57312 with 465246 and 465236 in tow on 5Q26 10:59 to Worksop. 466024 was left behind due to brake issues

 

[physics34]

Southern would rather the loaned 377/5s back! SE can keep their Networkers!

Yeh why this isnt happening is baffling. Scrap the 313s and give us our 377s back.

 

[brad465]

57312 with 465246 and 465236 in tow on 5Q26 10:59 to Worksop. 466024 was left behind due to brake issues

Are they going to stick that on another planned run or will another additional run have to be made just for that unit, or is it too early to tell?

 

[Class 466]

Are they going to stick that on another planned run or will another additional run have to be made just for that unit, or is it too early to tell?

I’d wager it’s too early to tell just yet

Yeh why this isnt happening is baffling. Scrap the 313s and give us our 377s back.

Because there’s another plan to remove 313s that doesn’t involve 377/5s that Southeastern need

 

[A0wen]

Yeh why this isnt happening is baffling. Scrap the 313s and give us our 377s back.

Plenty of reasons why that won't happen - not least the 465/6s aren't with Southern - so either you move some to Southern, which creates the problems of a non-standard sub-class in an otherwise fairly standard fleet and possibly problems with clearances and other technical factors.

The correct solution is a new stock order for Southern to allow the replacement of the 455s and 313s.

But are completely incompatible with the electrostars. Southern needs a common fleet and SE would still have a mixed fleet of various train types

So are the current 455s and 313s, so compatibility in that sense whilst a laudable aim is unlikely to be achieved, particularly as the Electrostars are now between 10 and 20 years old. Whereas having 2 types on a fleet which aren't compatible is eminently workable as most other TOCs can demonstrate.

 

[bramling]

Plenty of reasons why that won't happen - not least the 465/6s aren't with Southern - so either you move some to Southern, which creates the problems of a non-standard sub-class in an otherwise fairly standard fleet and possibly problems with clearances and other technical factors.

The correct solution is a new stock order for Southern to allow the replacement of the 455s and 313s.



So are the current 455s and 313s, so compatibility in that sense whilst a laudable aim is unlikely to be achieved, particularly as the Electrostars are now between 10 and 20 years old. Whereas having 2 types on a fleet which aren't compatible is eminently workable as most other TOCs can demonstrate.

I don’t really see the value in ordering new for Southern, when you could see off the 313 and 455 fleets simply by concentrating Electrostars on Southern, perhaps using the 376 for the most inner suburban stuff, and conventional Electrostars for the outer suburban. None of the Southern routes seem desperate for people-eating trains, as they currently seem to manage okay with 455s and 377s.

I’d top up the Southern fleet with 387s though. Replace the GN 387s with 379s, and return the 365s to GN in order to facilitate return of the 387/2s. By my calculations either the 376 or 377/5s (but not both) could be released from Southeastern in this way, by keeping the full fleet of Networkers.

Then do a full Southeastern metro fleet replacement a few years down the line, although this would still leave the 707s as an outlier.

I’d say in the medium term fleet replacement on Southeastern metro is more of a priority than Southern, simply as Southeastern seems likely to need higher capacity trains, whereas Southern doesn’t. Keeping the Networkers on for a few more years buys time to have a proper think about Southeastern stabling, and also how to make the most of the 12-car railway.

 

[brad465]

57312 with 465246 and 465236 in tow on 5Q26 10:59 to Worksop. 466024 was left behind due to brake issues

Here's a video of that working passing through Arlesey. They haven't had the branding taken off yet (unless that's a consideration for at Worksop itself):

 

[Wolfie]

Get the 376s and 377s from se and replace the 455, 313 and 171s and pretty much SN would be entirely served by electrostars. It would have been more sensible for that to happen imo so southern can have a more standard fleet

Wonderful for Southern. Leaves Southeastern deep.in the mire though. Let me guess who your local TOC is....

 

[Class 466]

following on from yesterday’s move, all other moves will be limited to 8 coaches in length so therefore will require more separate runs as they had all been planned to be 10 cars.

 

[3973EXL]

STP Mon 21/06 to Thur 24/06
Realtime Trains - FRGT 1059 Gillingham E.M.U.D. to Worksop Up Receptions

 

[Paul Jones 88]

I'd love to be allowed to travel on that train on Monday.

 

[Milo T.K]

I actually don't live near southern XD
Was an idea I had but eh. Was an idea tho

Wonderful for Southern. Leaves Southeastern deep.in the mire though. Let me guess who your local TOC is....

 

[Aictos]

following on from yesterday’s move, all other moves will be limited to 8 coaches in length so therefore will require more separate runs as they had all been planned to be 10 cars.

Why the length restriction?

 

[Wolfie]

I actually don't live near southern XD
Was an idea I had but eh. Was an idea tho

Ideas are always welcome. Consequences may be pointed out (they have been to me often enough!). Nothing nasty or personal.

 

[mmh]

The Networkers have limited route clearance, no air conditioning, a ridiculously cramped seat layout, slow to load - yes they are a classic train but in the same way the VEPs were hopelessly antiquated by the time they were withdrawn, the Networkers are most definitely no longer the train of the future....

All spot on. Unfortunately they've dated rather badly and I can't see anyone clamouring to redeploy them. They have layout issues which are just going to be impractical / uneconomic to fix on such an old (because I'm afraid they are now, in truth) train, not least the very cramped door and vestibule layout.

 

[warwickshire]

Does anyone know anymore further information.
Will in the next few weeks. Will any further more units go for withdrawal ie storage or scrap.
Furthermore will also there be more frequent weekly moves like this week.
Say for the next few weeks or so.?.

 

[Journeyman]

All spot on. Unfortunately they've dated rather badly and I can't see anyone clamouring to redeploy them. They have layout issues which are just going to be impractical / uneconomic to fix on such an old (because I'm afraid they are now, in truth) train, not least the very cramped door and vestibule layout.

True. They were a vast improvement on the EPBs they replaced, but as pretty much the first trains of their kind, there's a number of problems with them. In particular, they're electrically very "dirty" and can only operate where suitable immunisation work has taken place.

I'll miss them when they're gone, but so far they've lasted longer than many SUBs did, and even quite a few of the EPBs had gone by the time they were this old.

 

[Class 466]

465004,010,019 & 466043 are all out in service still today. However all other units due to be stored are not.

465245 & 017 are at Gillingham Depot along with 466024.

 

[Roger B]

465004,010,019 & 466043 are all out in service still today. However all other units due to be stored are not.

465245 & 017 are at Gillingham Depot along with 466024.

Do you have a full list of the units to be stored please (or point me to the post where they're listed, if I missed it). Many thx

 

[NSEFAN]

In particular, they're electrically very "dirty" and can only operate where suitable immunisation work has taken place.

What's the going rate for approved-supplier decoupling capacitors?

 

[317 forever]

They may go into warm storage initially. However, if there is sufficient working from home as the "new normal" or an increase in unemployment in the area which does not improve for many years, some may need to be withdrawn. It's a pity they will not replace Southern class 313s even if they are reduced to 3-car units.

 

[43102EMR]

They may go into warm storage initially. However, if there is sufficient working from home as the "new normal" or an increase in unemployment in the area which does not improve for many years, some may need to be withdrawn. It's a pity they will not replace Southern class 313s even if they are reduced to 3-car units.

IMO Southern would prefer an all Electrostar fleet if anything, so I can somehow see some being released in the future once they decide to retire the PEPs.

 

[brad465]

They may go into warm storage initially. However, if there is sufficient working from home as the "new normal" or an increase in unemployment in the area which does not improve for many years, some may need to be withdrawn. It's a pity they will not replace Southern class 313s even if they are reduced to 3-car units.

It's possible, but at the same time so much house building has taken place within SE London and other parts of Kent I recent years that this could offset any reductions in travel caused by more WFH practices.