Caledonian Sleeper

[MrEd]

Thanks for this @MrEd ; is this from your personal observation or is it what you have learned from the CS team?

My view of the above:

1) did seem a little odd, more staff intensive, but I can see why it was done (to help new / infrequent travellers know where their coach was).

2) agreed not a good thing to try

3) again I can see why that was done, to get maximum use out of the club car. But I can see both sides.

4) not really an issue for the onboard staff, surely?

5) I preferred the card system. I imagine that some passengers didn’t like needing to decide on the point of boarding, and some passengers (me!) didn’t like it when waiting to board when the couple in front are taking an age to decide! Also I guess the card system worked better on the southbound for the Scotland stops.

6) I wonder if that was because the sleeper became a lot more popular with the new stock, and CS had based their orders on historical data? Nevertheless, inexcusable.

Re the more complex ‘fiddly’ dishes, I agree that it is more work for the on board team, and one hopes that suitable training was given. And I also hope that some consideration was given to the time taken to prep different dishes. But if there’s demand for it, then it comes down to delivering what the customer wants.

I would say that it’s a mixture of personal observation and speaking to staff. Of course, the staff aren’t themselves bothered about fare increases but seemed to be the favoured punchbag of irate passengers bemoaning them, particularly if other aspects of the service were below par. This contributed to a lot of staff stress.

I think you’re right about running out of food: I don’t think CS ever correctly estimated how popular the club/lounge car was on the Highlander.

 

[alistairlees]

So does this imply that the rest of the GWR passenger market most of whom have probably never heard of the Night Riviera are to an extent being fleeced in order to enable perhaps 0.1% of the overall GWR demand to travel in the style to which it has been accustomed?

And by everything else that's unprofitable on the GWR network, like Newquay and Looe branches, and probably the entire mainline west of Plymouth, or even Exeter. If you want to follow this argument, then you need to be supportive of shutting most of GWR.

 

[AberdeenBill]

The sleeper hosts are not trained chefs/kitchen assistants, but find themselves having to plate and present fiddly dishes (whereas in First Group days, the hot meals were deliberately chosen so as to be cooked and presented in one pot). This is very time-consuming.

I was surprised to read a few pages back a statement to the effect that the staff did not have catering / hospitality type training. As the selling point of the CS service appears to be the experience and the catering facilities provided by the lounge car, promoted on their website as 'the beating heart of the sleeper where you can experience the very best of Scotland's food & drink'. Given this level of promotion you would think that basic training could be provided alongside the regular H&S updates to training that the staff must receive.

The old ordering system from First Group days allowed passengers simply to tell the host on boarding what they wanted for breakfast, meaning that the host had a full list of breakfast orders by the time the train departed.

On my last trip they simply asked me as i boarded if i wished tea or coffee in the morning and this duly arrived complete with a muffin (or similar, i cant remember) that is provided to Classic passengers. Works perfectly well and should be continued post Covid.

As a follow up to my post 9,633 above, I understand that there is not dedicated lounge staff but everybody generally 'mucks in' to all aspects of the role of 'host'. Would there not be a case for employing a chef trained type person (providing you could get one to work on the sleeper) and/or specific dedicated lounge car trained waiting staff? The time span between lounge opening and closing from departure and prep and serving breakfast together with tidying up and breaks would just about amount to a full shift?

 

[andbrads]

1) The sleeper hosts are not trained chefs/kitchen assistants, but find themselves having to plate and present fiddly dishes (whereas in First Group days, the hot meals were deliberately chosen so as to be cooked and presented in one pot). This is very time-consuming.

This sounds like something straight off British Airways who are one of the last airlines to not plate food in business class. Looking at the menu, are the dishes really ‘fiddly’ to plate? They seem to me to be quite close to ready meals. Or perhaps taking something out of a container and putting it on a plate is a bridge too far considering it was not done before? How do GWR get their staff to do their dining car which is in a different league in terms of quality and on-board effort?

2) Some crews are reluctant to serve hot meals to those sitting on the bar stools on the ground that the tables are too narrow. This seems to me to be bizarre. I don’t know if this is company H&S policy or staff being difficult, but it does make the service harder.

It will surely have been risk assessed and if it is an acceptable risk then the staff should follow the guidance rather than reverting to what they would have done in the olden days?

3) The breakfast card ordering system pre-Covid was a disaster, as half the passengers forgot to fill out the card. So staff were spending the early part of the journey (while the lounge car was full to bursting) trying to find passengers to ask them what they wanted for breakfast. The old ordering system from First Group days allowed passengers simply to tell the host on boarding what they wanted for breakfast, meaning that the host had a full list of breakfast orders by the time the train departed. This old system was easier for both passengers and staff (and has in fact been reintroduced for breakfast orders during the Covid restrictions). The old system works well- so why on earth did CS introduce those silly cards?

Sorry but this seems like something which is purely done to make life easier for the staff at the expense of the customer. Even in long haul economy on an airline, you are not made to choose your meal as you board. Having to fill in a card the night before is still annoying as a customer, as how do you know what you will fancy in the morning, ruling out obvious dislikes / allergies, but it is better than being made to choose before you even get on.

Anyway, thank you for listing what the specific issues are. It would seem a lot of them would be resolvable with a decent manage my booking function, in terms of pre-ordering food to match demand, book table reservations to manage capacity etc. It‘s mad that you can’t even amend a booking, you have to cancel and book again, this seems like an obvious area to change as CS must lose money on refunds which would have rebooked if the feature was there.

I would say that it’s a mixture of personal observation and speaking to staff. Of course, the staff aren’t themselves bothered about fare increases but seemed to be the favoured punchbag of irate passengers bemoaning them, particularly if other aspects of the service were below par. This contributed to a lot of staff stress.

I‘m sure there are many occasions where the ‘punching’ is over something that is nothing to do with the on board staff, which unfortunately comes with the territory of being customer facing. However, the skill lies in responding in such a way that diffuses things rather than aggravating them. Should team members let it show to the customer for even a nanosecond that they either don’t care or it wasn’t their problem, then that will escalate and in fairness the staff member becomes complicit.

 

[williamn]

I’d actually quite like to order my breakfast via a card, beats making a snap decision on a cold platform.

And I imagine the issue with passengers reserving lounge car tables was that it was an informal unadvertised thing for regulars and therefore pretty hard to justify why there were tables lying empty while turning people away.

 

[mark-h]

I understand that there is not dedicated lounge staff but everybody generally 'mucks in' to all aspects of the role of 'host'. Would there not be a case for employing a chef trained type person (providing you could get one to work on the sleeper) and/or specific dedicated lounge car trained waiting staff?

Having staff cross-trained and able to carry out more roles should make the onboard service more reliable. If there was a chef on the service then there would be issues if they weren't available due to sickness etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Card ordering for breakfast seems a bit of a niggly thing to have a complaint over - many people will have used such a thing before at a hotel, on a plane, a hospital...

People don't like being handed a menu and asked to choose instantly in a restaurant or pub, I can't see it being popular on a station platform either!

The solution to this seems to be to put something on the card thus: "If you don't put your card out, we will deliver a cold takeaway style breakfast outside your door before arrival of the train at your ticketed destination", and just have a stack of non perishable prepacked "snack box" breakfasts (something like a pain au chocolat, small orange juice etc) for that purpose.

 

[MrEd]

The solution to this seems to be to put something on the card thus: "If you don't put your card out, we will deliver a cold takeaway style breakfast outside your door before arrival of the train at your ticketed destination", and just have a stack of non perishable prepacked "snack box" breakfasts (something like a pain au chocolat, small orange juice etc) for that purpose.

That would be a great idea! A lot of passengers might actually prefer that to the breakfasts listed on the card (myself included!)

I’d actually quite like to order my breakfast via a card, beats making a snap decision on a cold platform.

And I imagine the issue with passengers reserving lounge car tables was that it was an informal unadvertised thing for regulars and therefore pretty hard to justify why there were tables lying empty while turning people away.

Something like that, though, could easily be solved with a policy similar to that used by most restaurants: you specify a time for your reservation and if you do not show up within 10 minutes or so, the table is given away. For regulars, a good team leader would be able to find out quite quickly from staff whether they were on the train and whether they intended to dine; if the answer to those was negative then the table could be given away.

 

[philosopher]

The solution to this seems to be to put something on the card thus: "If you don't put your card out, we will deliver a cold takeaway style breakfast outside your door before arrival of the train at your ticketed destination", and just have a stack of non perishable prepacked "snack box" breakfasts (something like a pain au chocolat, small orange juice etc) for that purpose.

The one time I used the sleeper in 2019, I thought the card system was quite a good system for ordering breakfast. Hotels often do something similar if you are having breakfast in your room. Admittedly regular travellers used to a different system may think differently.

 

[MrEd]

This sounds like something straight off British Airways who are one of the last airlines to not plate food in business class. Looking at the menu, are the dishes really ‘fiddly’ to plate? They seem to me to be quite close to ready meals. Or perhaps taking something out of a container and putting it on a plate is a bridge too far considering it was not done before? How do GWR get their staff to do their dining car which is in a different league in terms of quality and on-board effort?

Scotrail did plate the lounge car food, but generally it was dishes like chilli con carne and curry which could simply be poured into a bowl. CS had dishes like a stuffed chicken and sea trout in the months immediately before Covid, which were more time consuming to cook and present.

I do not understand your comment about GWR, as (from what I’ve heard) the Night Riviera has a far simpler lounge car menu than CS - their lounge car is definitely a glorified buffet car rather than a restaurant as I understand it. I can’t imagine they’d be serving many hot meals given the Riviera’s late departure time.

 

[mmh]

The solution to this seems to be to put something on the card thus: "If you don't put your card out, we will deliver a cold takeaway style breakfast outside your door before arrival of the train at your ticketed destination", and just have a stack of non perishable prepacked "snack box" breakfasts (something like a pain au chocolat, small orange juice etc) for that purpose.

A pragmatic solution to the "problem," so it will never happen. And what happens in lots of hotels where they'd like you to pre-order but you haven't. They'll give you what they can. If a "hotel on wheels" can't, it's rubbish.

But I must admit I still don't understand why being left to make your meal choice rather than asked it while (before!) you're boarding is a problem. Imagine the outcry on the airline forums if premium passengers (which is what CS passengers are) were asked to.

 

[MrEd]

But I must admit I still don't understand why being left to make your meal choice rather than asked it while (before!) you're boarding is a problem. Imagine the outcry on the airline forums if premium passengers (which is what CS passengers are) were asked to.

This paragraph makes a very important point: a lot of regular sleeper passengers gradually became very familiar with its quirks - things like having to tell the hosts what you wanted for breakfast as you boarded (regulars generally knew the menu off by heart as it was hardly extensive). This was a practice inherited from BR days when the offering in the morning was either a cup of tea or a cup of coffee with biscuits. A lot of new travellers have no experience of these quirks and find them very strange, especially when they compare the sleeper experience with an airline or hotel.

Management at CS probably wanted to eliminate these quirks for that reason, but old habits die hard and a lot of long-standing staff were resistant to the changes. What regular travellers were left by 2019 still insisted on ordering their breakfast the old way, and wanted their reserved table the old way, which probably reinforced the staff’s resistance to the changes.

 

[haggishunter]

I’d actually quite like to order my breakfast via a card, beats making a snap decision on a cold

I’ve not travelled on the new stock except on the seats, but have filled in the card near the end of the old sleeper.

For the sleeper I’d prefer the card system to ordering on the platform, and with the card you got woken up to your breakfast order, not woken up earlier to get your order! It might make life easier for the staff but I’d say it makes the service better for the passengers too.

Woujd add though with orders being taken in the evening there is no excuse for not getting adequate supplies delivered on route to fulfil all orders. Presumably the breakfast items are picked up on route from suppliers ?

 

[andbrads]

Scotrail did plate the lounge car food, but generally it was dishes like chilli con carne and curry which could simply be poured into a bowl. CS had dishes like a stuffed chicken and sea trout in the months immediately before Covid, which were more time consuming to cook and present.

I do not understand your comment about GWR, as (from what I’ve heard) the Night Riviera has a far simpler lounge car menu than CS - their lounge car is definitely a glorified buffet car rather than a restaurant as I understand it. I can’t imagine they’d be serving many hot meals given the Riviera’s late departure time.

They weren’t stuffing the chicken or pan-searing the sea trout on board were they?

GWR I was referring to the daytime dining car, not the Night Riviera. The latter leaves as such a late hour, there is no dining car, only a bar as far as I am aware? All of which with the refurbished cabins looks nicer than CS.

 

[MrEd]

They weren’t stuffing the chicken or pan-searing the sea trout on board were they?

GWR I was referring to the daytime dining car, not the Night Riviera. The latter leaves as such a late hour, there is no dining car, only a bar as far as I am aware? All of which with the refurbished cabins looks nicer than CS.

I think all food on CS is pre-packed; I don’t think any of it is cooked to order.

I personally have no experience of on-train catering on GWR so can’t comment on the quality of their offering.

 

[Bill57p9]

Presumably the breakfast items are picked up on route from suppliers ?

I don't know about now, but back in the BR days the breakfasts were all loaded to order at Preston. Preston or Carlisle would seem an obvious location for such logistics.

 

[Butts]

A pragmatic solution to the "problem," so it will never happen. And what happens in lots of hotels where they'd like you to pre-order but you haven't. They'll give you what they can. If a "hotel on wheels" can't, it's rubbish.

But I must admit I still don't understand why being left to make your meal choice rather than asked it while (before!) you're boarding is a problem. Imagine the outcry on the airline forums if premium passengers (which is what CS passengers are) were asked to.

Premium are you having a giraffe......

Imagine the outcry if Airline Passengers didn't have access to a Lounge with plentiful free food and Alcohol prior to departure...

Imagine the outcry if they had to pay for their Glenlivet's or food onboard....

Imagine you got the above two on CS, then perhaps it would be a premium service

Walked into that one.........

 

[w1bbl3]

They weren’t stuffing the chicken or pan-searing the sea trout on board were they?

GWR I was referring to the daytime dining car, not the Night Riviera. The latter leaves as such a late hour, there is no dining car, only a bar as far as I am aware? All of which with the refurbished cabins looks nicer than CS.

GWR for the pullman services have/had chefs on-board which partly why the price is so high. Lunch/Dinner is plated by the chef and breakfast was plated by the customer host or the chef depending on what you'd ordered.
Remember the 80x full kitchen is quite a bit better fitted out as a functional kitchen than the CS lounge car food prep area.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think all food on CS is pre-packed; I don’t think any of it is cooked to order.

I personally have no experience of on-train catering on GWR so can’t comment on the quality of their offering.

GWR Pullman meals were prepared and cooked from fresh on board. Now they've restarted they're loaded pre-cooked, so steak is off the menu.

 

[andbrads]

GWR Pullman meals were prepared and cooked from fresh on board. Now they've restarted they're loaded pre-cooked, so steak is off the menu.

Just looked at the new menu, pretty good with 3 courses for £30!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Going back to the Sleeper, I think the Highlander, and in particular the Fort William, differ very much from the Riviera and Lowlander, because most people don't want a full meal at 2345, whereas quite a few people would consider one much earlier in the evening.

Probably the same with the idea of a full cooked breakfast served in the lounge on the FW due to the much later arrival.

 

[trebor79]

GWR Pullman meals were prepared and cooked from fresh on board. Now they've restarted they're loaded pre-cooked, so steak is off the menu.

Just looked at the new menu, pretty good with 3 courses for £30!

I wonder how you do pan fried cod as a precooked thing?
Hopefully they will return to being properly cooked from fresh on board as things get back to normal. It's something I want to experience one day!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder how you do pan fried cod as a precooked thing?

You can probably get away with microwaving it as it's not crispy.

 

[Falcon1200]

Sorry but this seems like something which is purely done to make life easier for the staff at the expense of the customer. Even in long haul economy on an airline, you are not made to choose your meal as you board. Having to fill in a card the night before is still annoying as a customer, as how do you know what you will fancy in the morning, ruling out obvious dislikes / allergies, but it is better than being made to choose before you even get on.

Maybe a different situation as long-haul economy passengers are not asleep in beds in closed compartments ! I did not mind filling out a card on boarding (this was pre-Covid, and I know what I like for breakfast) but I agree that requiring this to be done on the platform is not ideal. And what is the alternative to pre-ordering, someone walking down the train at 0530 knocking on every door to take the orders ?!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe a different situation as long-haul economy passengers are not asleep in beds in closed compartments ! I did not mind filling out a card on boarding (this was pre-Covid, and I know what I like for breakfast) but I agree that requiring this to be done on the platform is not ideal. And what is the alternative to pre-ordering, someone walking down the train at 0530 knocking on every door to take the orders ?!!

You're not required to choose your meals in advance on a plane (unless you need an allergy meal or similar), but if you've ever sat at the back you'll have experienced not getting the choice you wanted and having to make do with something you don't like as your choice has run out. Advance booking of meal choices solves that (in this case, the "advance booking" is just before they're loaded at Preston using the cards) and is something I'd very much like to see done on airline websites, perhaps at online check-in stage. Indeed, talking of CS, I'm almost certain that the one time I did travel in a First Class berth they did offer the choice at the time of booking? I forget now, it was a while ago.

 

[cjbirkett]

I don't know about now, but back in the BR days the breakfasts were all loaded to order at Preston. Preston or Carlisle would seem an obvious location for such logistics.

Yes, breakfast Order had to be phoned through ASAP after London/Watford pick up northbound so they could load it at Preston. Southbound you phoned it through as soon as the the trains had joined up and left Edinburgh. At one point standard didn’t get ANY hot offering for breakfast, if we were running horrendously late we used to give them all first class brekkies which attendants on the other trains didn’t approve of as it “cost too much” We always used to reply that that’s why us on the Fort William got better tips than they did

Some stores were shared with LNER at Waverley (and I presume West Coast at Glasgow, never really involved with the lowland) but brekkie was always Preston. If we were diverted via E/C they put it on at York.

I remember all depots had attendants and team leaders who got different rates of pay.Team leaders did lounge car, attendants manned sleeping cars and did berth brekkies, APART from us on the Fort William that did both jobs depending on shift but weren’t called team leaders but I think got team leader pay. Memory is vague, it is around 20 years ago now.

Ah the joys of joining/separating at 3 in the morning at Waverley and having to isolate the fire alarms without waking anyone up! And trying to get our guys out of the Aberdeen lounge car before we separated, the Fort William crowd would stay in it as long as possible

Best wishes

Chris

 

[Davester50]

and is something I'd very much like to see done on airline websites, perhaps at online check-in stage.

You could (pre-March 2020) chose a month in advance on BA First, while upgraded meal options were available to purchase in steerage.

A decent breakfast is what the Sleeper needs on the lowlander. The bacon roll is crap. I'm not eating a large meal at that time of night.
The highlander's earlier departure does give a better opportunity for evening meals, and more issues with breakfast with the multiple stops.

Sadly the cafeteria on the new sleeper is too small for a decent meal service, but good enough for drinks and snacks, IMO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A decent breakfast is what the Sleeper needs on the lowlander. The bacon roll is crap. I'm not eating a large meal at that time of night.
The highlander's earlier departure does give a better opportunity for evening meals, and more issues with breakfast with the multiple stops.

I'm not sure the Lowlander really needs a big breakfast - it arrives early enough to pop to a cafe on arrival which will always do something better. The lounge is really more of a pub than a restaurant on those.

The northbound FW with its 10am-ish arrival is the one where you'd do decent business charging over the odds for a proper, quality silver-service type setup. Though popping over to Morrisons on arrival is also good!

 

[Davester50]

I'm not sure the Lowlander really needs a big breakfast - it arrives early enough to pop to a cafe on arrival which will always do something better. The lounge is really more of a pub than a restaurant on those.

Didn't say big. Decent. With a 7 am arrival in Euston, I'd like to be able to start then, refreshed and ready for the day.

The northbound FW with its 10am-ish arrival is the one where you'd do decent business charging over the odds for a proper, quality silver-service type setup. Though popping over to Morrisons on arrival is also good!

There's more to the highlander than the Fort William portion though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Didn't say big. Decent. With a 7 am arrival in Euston, I'd like to be able to start then, refreshed and ready for the day.

I'm entertained by the idea that anyone can be "refreshed" when they step off a night train

(I do envy those people who can sleep anywhere, I'm not one of them)