Caledonian Sleeper

[Davester50]

What I'd like, and what I'm dealt are two different things!
Particularly in berths 9 and 10. Never again.

 

[trebor79]

I'm not sure the Lowlander really needs a big breakfast - it arrives early enough to pop to a cafe on arrival which will always do something better. The lounge is really more of a pub than a restaurant on those.

The northbound FW with its 10am-ish arrival is the one where you'd do decent business charging over the odds for a proper, quality silver-service type setup. Though popping over to Morrisons on arrival is also good!

Decent greasy spoon in FW station too!

 

[fgwrich]

GWR Pullman meals were prepared and cooked from fresh on board. Now they've restarted they're loaded pre-cooked, so steak is off the menu.

If they’ve resorted to a pre-cooked / heat it up on the train menu then that is highly disappointing. The Pullman has already somewhat been dumbed down with the introduction of the IETs, it’ll be even more disappointing if it isn’t cooked on board.

Regarding the NR, while it doesn’t require a big evening menu at all, I would at least like something more akin to the Caley Sleeper offerings for breakfast.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Didn't say big. Decent. With a 7 am arrival in Euston, I'd like to be able to start then, refreshed and ready for the day.

I agree 100%, I don't stay in a hotel (or B&B for that matter) and then expect to have to nip down the high st. to find a greasy spoon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree 100%, I don't stay in a hotel (or B&B for that matter) and then expect to have to nip down the high st. to find a greasy spoon.

It's not the same as a hotel, because you need to be out quite early. And I sometimes have declined the hotel's offering and gone somewhere else instead as you can get a better breakfast for less money - I very often will if there is a local Morrison's for example.

 

[AberdeenBill]

I have tried the dinner offerings on the Highlander but personally i am not really bothered about eating on the train and prefer to have something before i get on or if short of time, grab something from Sainsbury's and eat it in the berth and pop down to the lounge later. I wonder if the general consensus is, like me, that people would prefer the lounge to be more of a pub perhaps offering just a few snacks like crisps, cheese & biscuits and maybe a few simple microwave type meals. I always thought the old Mark 3 lounges had a better atmosphere and seemed to be filled with a good crowd sitting in large groups drinking quite late into the night with banter flowing across the tables and sofas. Maybe the layout was better for this. I suspect that many of the people who use this forum would be happy with the pub type arrangement, but that generally the tourists wanting the 'experience' promoted by CS expect to be wining & dining in style.

 

[Grumpy Git]

It's not the same as a hotel, because you need to be out quite early. And I sometimes have declined the hotel's offering and gone somewhere else instead as you can get a better breakfast for less money - I very often will if there is a local Morrison's for example.

As an aside, I'm always amused when other punters come down to breakfast with their case. I assume they attend their first appointment of the morning (and subsequent ones), with coffee breath and bacon stuck in their teeth, how charming!

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an aside, I'm always amused when other punters come down to breakfast with their case. I assume they attend their first appointment of the morning (and subsequent ones), with coffee breath and bacon stuck in their teeth, how charming!

Given that coffee is drunk by more people in offices than not, I don't think anyone is going to notice "coffee breath"! And people who brush their teeth after lunch (as a comparison) are in a tiny minority.

 

[Bald Rick]

As an aside, I'm always amused when other punters come down to breakfast with their case. I assume they attend their first appointment of the morning (and subsequent ones), with coffee breath and bacon stuck in their teeth, how charming!

I usually do this. But then I don’t drink coffee or have bacon for breakfast!

 

[Peter Sarf]

You're not required to choose your meals in advance on a plane (unless you need an allergy meal or similar), but if you've ever sat at the back you'll have experienced not getting the choice you wanted and having to make do with something you don't like as your choice has run out. Advance booking of meal choices solves that (in this case, the "advance booking" is just before they're loaded at Preston using the cards) and is something I'd very much like to see done on airline websites, perhaps at online check-in stage. Indeed, talking of CS, I'm almost certain that the one time I did travel in a First Class berth they did offer the choice at the time of booking? I forget now, it was a while ago.

If you sit at/near the back you wait ages for whatever food is left to get served. I usually request a meal so as to guarantee what I get and not have to wait so long. Mind you I suppose that only applies to longer flights. Also for hotels I don't take their breakfast unless it is free/part f the package. If i am travelling I want to sample the local version of food (to a point). Not sure any of that is applicable to the sleeper as it is not a massive cabin full of people who can see each other BUT I would prefer to pre order my food and know what is coming as I am captive.

 

[Davester50]

I agree 100%, I don't stay in a hotel (or B&B for that matter) and then expect to have to nip down the high st. to find a greasy spoon.

Precisely. Outbound, (Southbound), I often, (pre-March 2020), used it to travel onwards. I don't want to search around for a breakfast joint.

It's not the same as a hotel, because you need to be out quite early. And I sometimes have declined the hotel's offering and gone somewhere else instead as you can get a better breakfast for less money - I very often will if there is a local Morrison's for example.

It's a luxury Hotel on Wheels though. Even more reason for the choice.

 

[ainsworth74]

How do GWR get their staff to do their dining car which is in a different league in terms of quality and on-board effort?

By employing chefs and dedicated Pullman hosts whose job it is to run the Pullman dining services. Similarly LNER employ chefs and their staff have been multi-role (might be running the standard class trolley on one train, then taking plates out of the kitchen on the next, or even doing both on some services!) for donkey's years. On LNER services which don't have actual chefs I believe a mixture of training and well designed prepared food means that plating up is very simple. I seem to recall that the breakfasts that weren't prepared by chefs were designed so you could just tip them directly from what they'd been cooked in onto the plate, similarly I recall they often had other hot options which could be served in a bowl or a small plate (I recall they had a nice chicken and rice dish for instance, which was clearly just drop the rice on one side, then the chicken in the sauce on the other). Fancy dishes were saved for services which would have chefs (usually the evening meal services out of Kings Cross).

I can well believe that if Serco have upped the complication of the food service without either employing dedicated staff or giving their existing staff proper training along with meals designed to be easy to serve for non-culinary experts working out of tiny tiny kitchens that move that trouble will have followed for the staff trying to hold it all together.

 

[AberdeenBill]

I can well believe that if Serco have upped the complication of the food service without either employing dedicated staff or giving their existing staff proper training along with meals designed to be easy to serve for non-culinary experts working out of tiny tiny kitchens that move that trouble will have followed for the staff trying to hold it all together.

Maybe Serco should consider engaging a specialist company to provide the catering on CE and redeploying the existing (untrained) staff to other duties. This is not uncommon on TOCs, eg Rail Gourmet provide the catering on SW Railway, not SWR directly, albeit this is only a trolley service of snacks & drinks. Im sure that bids would be provided that would be very competitive against the existing cost and the standard of service might improve

 

[andbrads]

By employing chefs and dedicated Pullman hosts whose job it is to run the Pullman dining services. Similarly LNER employ chefs and their staff have been multi-role (might be running the standard class trolley on one train, then taking plates out of the kitchen on the next, or even doing both on some services!) for donkey's years. On LNER services which don't have actual chefs I believe a mixture of training and well designed prepared food means that plating up is very simple. I seem to recall that the breakfasts that weren't prepared by chefs were designed so you could just tip them directly from what they'd been cooked in onto the plate, similarly I recall they often had other hot options which could be served in a bowl or a small plate (I recall they had a nice chicken and rice dish for instance, which was clearly just drop the rice on one side, then the chicken in the sauce on the other). Fancy dishes were saved for services which would have chefs (usually the evening meal services out of Kings Cross).

I can well believe that if Serco have upped the complication of the food service without either employing dedicated staff or giving their existing staff proper training along with meals designed to be easy to serve for non-culinary experts working out of tiny tiny kitchens that move that trouble will have followed for the staff trying to hold it all together.

The obvious question as a layman is why has CS has not / is not following this model (of having dedicated chefs and hosts) as surely with the longer journey times, greater amount of tourists and more destinations, the scope is there?

 

[Butts]

If CS still had the old stock they could have added a GWR Pullman Car to the Service for Meals and Breakfasts which might have enabled them to deliver a Premium Service.

Why don't they do this on the Night Riviera ?

 

[andbrads]

If CS still had the old stock they could have added a GWR Pullman Car to the Service for Meals and Breakfasts which might have enabled them to deliver a Premium Service.

Why don't they do this on the Night Riviera ?

Isn't it too short, at just over 6 hours, for an elaborate meal service? Also leaves very late?

I was thinking that the GWR Night Riviera refurbished cars plus the Pullman car would make a much more compelling product than the CS MK5 cars, they should swap!

 

[MrEd]

If CS still had the old stock they could have added a GWR Pullman Car to the Service for Meals and Breakfasts which might have enabled them to deliver a Premium Service.

Why don't they do this on the Night Riviera ?

Not many folk want a three-course meal at 23.45 or a full cooked breakfast before alighting at 8am, I don’t suppose.

I have tried the dinner offerings on the Highlander but personally i am not really bothered about eating on the train and prefer to have something before i get on or if short of time, grab something from Sainsbury's and eat it in the berth and pop down to the lounge later. I wonder if the general consensus is, like me, that people would prefer the lounge to be more of a pub perhaps offering just a few snacks like crisps, cheese & biscuits and maybe a few simple microwave type meals. I always thought the old Mark 3 lounges had a better atmosphere and seemed to be filled with a good crowd sitting in large groups drinking quite late into the night with banter flowing across the tables and sofas. Maybe the layout was better for this. I suspect that many of the people who use this forum would be happy with the pub type arrangement, but that generally the tourists wanting the 'experience' promoted by CS expect to be wining & dining in style.

Anyone hoping to ‘wine and dine’ in style in a CS lounge car will probably be disappointed. It’s more of a glorified buffet. The old First Group model which you talk about worked brilliantly, the atmosphere was great and it was exactly what the service needed. The Mk5 lounges are not really suited to that kind of atmosphere, which is a shame.

Most passengers enjoy the haggis and the soup, but a lot of the other hot dishes are better suited to restaurant cars with proper facilities.

 

[HST274]

Not many folk want a three-course meal at 23.45 or a full cooked breakfast before alighting at 8am, I don’t suppose.

Yes for me a bacon bap was enough -and had already eaten tea- along with the night riviera just being almost perfect (for me).
On the CS is it likely any catering will be brought back soon and is the lounge just fully closed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not many folk want a three-course meal at 23.45 or a full cooked breakfast before alighting at 8am, I don’t suppose.

Exactly. With the exception of the Fort William due to its early departure (southbound) and late arrival (northbound), what's called for is effectively bar snacks and bacon butties/coffee and croissant.

FW could have a different, more "involved" menu, though you'd want to choose dishes that can be reheated without impacting quality so you didn't need to modify one of the lounge cars to have a different kitchen from the others.

If it reopens at any point, a great way to deal with the FW situation might be a contract with the restaurant at Corrour to cook to order and load on board there!

 

[Bald Rick]

If it reopens at any point, a great way to deal with the FW situation might be a contract with the restaurant at Corrour to cook to order and load on board there!

If you want venison that is!

 

[trebor79]

Not many folk want a three-course meal at 23.45 or a full cooked breakfast before alighting at 8am, I don’t suppose.


Anyone hoping to ‘wine and dine’ in style in a CS lounge car will probably be disappointed. It’s more of a glorified buffet. The old First Group model which you talk about worked brilliantly, the atmosphere was great and it was exactly what the service needed. The Mk5 lounges are not really suited to that kind of atmosphere, which is a shame.

Yes the old club cars were great with the sofas, subdued lighting and 'clubby' decor.
The new ones are a bit sterile.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes the old club cars were great with the sofas, subdued lighting and 'clubby' decor.
The new ones are a bit sterile.

Sadly when I've used it it's always been the "normal" Mk2 restaurant car (just normal first class bay seating), so I've never had the opportunity to enjoy the special atmosphere. It was still good like that, though.

 

[trebor79]

Sadly when I've used it it's always been the "normal" Mk2 restaurant car (just normal first class bay seating), so I've never had the opportunity to enjoy the special atmosphere. It was still good like that, though.

Ah yes, that wouldn't be as good. It really was something special.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Ah yes, that wouldn't be as good. It really was something special.

Sounds like having your favourite boozer trashed after the makeover gang have put up lots of plastic and chrome and installed a loud jukebox with no "off" button or volume control?

 

[trebor79]

Sounds like having your favourite boozer trashed after the makeover gang have put up lots of plastic and chrome and installed a loud jukebox with no "off" button or volume control?

Actually yes. My favourite boozer was a spit and sawdust place in Durham. New landlord did a makeover and turned it into something that looked like the sitting room in a nursing home. Terrible.
Similar though not quite as horrendous transformation in the CS lounges. I actually like the new lounge cars (aside from the awkward stool seats), but the atmosphere definitely isn't what it used to be.

 

[philosopher]

Sadly when I've used it it's always been the "normal" Mk2 restaurant car (just normal first class bay seating), so I've never had the opportunity to enjoy the special atmosphere. It was still good like that, though.

When I used the old Sleeper from Fort William to London it was using the Mk2 restaurant car instead of the lounge car and I remember watching a travel YouTube video in which the Fort William portion was using the restaurant car. So perhaps they use to use the lounge car mainly on the Inverness and Aberdeen portions.

 

[trebor79]

When I used the old Sleeper from Fort William to London it was using the Mk2 restaurant car instead of the lounge car and I remember watching a travel YouTube video in which the Fort William portion was using the restaurant car. So perhaps they use to use the lounge car mainly on the Inverness and Aberdeen portions.

I've only ever done the FW and Glasgow portions and it was always the proper lounge car. I think it was a case of them being so old and knackered that they used whatever was serviceable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've only ever done the FW and Glasgow portions and it was always the proper lounge car. I think it was a case of them being so old and knackered that they used whatever was serviceable.

FW northbound or southbound? Northbound it's the Aberdeen lounge.

I don't think the pair of FW coaches got rotated round very often, they just tended to stay up there, so if the Mk2 restaurant car ended up there it hung around there.

 

[trebor79]

FW northbound or southbound? Northbound it's the Aberdeen lounge.

I don't think the pair of FW coaches got rotated round very often, they just tended to stay up there, so if the Mk2 restaurant car ended up there it hung around there.

Both. Maybe I was lucky.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

To update a much earlier part of the thread, Disabled railcards are now working correctly on their website and applying the discount to both travellers. I've just managed to book for myself and my wife to Glasgow and back in August for £237.60 return ( £105.60 out; £132.00 back ). That's the price for the two of us together.