Rail Industry Recovery Group

[tiptoptaff]

The same way, l imagine, as British Gas engineers felt when told sign these new contracts with inferior T&Cs or consider yourself fired. It's absolutely appalling and horrible but sadly increasingly the norm.

But we shouldn't be encouraging it because it suits us. The practice is abhorrent and just because it happened to one group, doesn't mean it should happen to another.

I, personally, would accept Sundays in if we got something like a 4on4off for it. For me, who likes RDW, it's better than the current system of long weekend as I could work a RD every week and still have 3days off. I can only do that once every 3weeks now (and we'll always have a reliance on overtime, to cover leave, sickness, restricted duties etc as its not economically viable to always have enough spare drivers to cover that AND service disruptions on the day.)

But, and here's a but, Sundays are worth money to me at the moment as committed overtime. It's extra money that I don't count in my budgeting but I know I'm going to get for my "luxuries" such as my Lego or model trains.

I'm not going to accept a lower quality of life just because someone who's bitter (and to be clear I'm NOT aiming this at anyone here specifically) about the fact that's how I'm compensated for my work, thinks it should be different.

People also forget that ultimately drivers still hold power. You might think you can force things on us but the railway would fall apart if we all went on strike and despite what soke people think, that's the last thing the government will want. Getting Sundays inside won't happen for free, whether you want it to or not. But we also have to be pragmatic. I reckon my booked Sundays are worth 4k to me on top of my salary. I'd probably accept 2k and a reduction to a 32hr week 4on/4off (which would be a likely deal)

 

[Wolfie]

But we shouldn't be encouraging it because it suits us. The practice is abhorrent and just because it happened to one group, doesn't mean it should happen to another.

I, personally, would accept Sundays in if we got something like a 4on4off for it. For me, who likes RDW, it's better than the current system of long weekend as I could work a RD every week and still have 3days off. I can only do that once every 3weeks now (and we'll always have a reliance on overtime, to cover leave, sickness, restricted duties etc as its not economically viable to always have enough spare drivers to cover that AND service disruptions on the day.)

But, and here's a but, Sundays are worth money to me at the moment as committed overtime. It's extra money that I don't count in my budgeting but I know I'm going to get for my "luxuries" such as my Lego or model trains.

I'm not going to accept a lower quality of life just because someone who's bitter (and to be clear I'm NOT aiming this at anyone here specifically) about the fact that's how I'm compensated for my work, thinks it should be different.

People also forget that ultimately drivers still hold power. You might think you can force things on us but the railway would fall apart if we all went on strike and despite what soke people think, that's the last thing the government will want. Getting Sundays inside won't happen for free, whether you want it to or not. But we also have to be pragmatic. I reckon my booked Sundays are worth 4k to me on top of my salary. I'd probably accept 2k and a reduction to a 32hr week 4on/4off (which would be a likely deal)

Having worked in the public sector for 30+ years l would say that your chances of getting the "compromise" that you want, particularly after years of relatively generous pay settlements in the rail industry, from any Govt, let alone the current one, tend to zero. If that is the rail union's negotiating strategy l fear that HMG will go straight to a British Gas style response.
Air traffic controllers in Reagan's USA thought that they were bulletproof too....

 

[tiptoptaff]

Having worked in the public sector for 30+ years l would say that your chances of getting the "compromise" that you want, particularly after years of relatively generous pay settlements in the rail industry, from any Govt, let alone the current one, tend to zero. If that is the rail union's negotiating strategy l fear that HMG will go straight to a British Gas style response.

Yet you seem to ignore the widespread damage the unions can inflict by ordering a strike.

Do I think striking is wise? Probably not. But will it be effective? Certainly for drivers I think so. HMG won't want the country griding to a halt amid an economic recovery.

I'm not going to roll over and take whatever beating you think we deserve because someone else let it happen to them.

 

[Non Multi]

The unions' traditional leverage of having many thousands of commuters with no alternative but to travel is history.

 

[tiptoptaff]

The unions' traditional leverage of having many thousands of commuters with no alternative but to travel is history.

Commuters aren't the only ones who use trains.

I'm not saying we should be demanding a payrise. But a lot of us get paid extra to work Sunday. To now take that inside for nothing is, for some of us, a 4or5k paycut. That is NOT acceptable.

If you really think that it is, you need to take a step back and reasses your attitude towards the way others are treated.

The 32hr week is something that will probably come in. You'll need more staff to cover that, but at a time when you're cutting services and therefore staff. It balances out - no recruitment to increase establishment to cover 32hr week, no one loses their job because the reduced staffing requirement is offset by the increased requirement of a 32hr week

 

[ainsworth74]

that's the last thing the government will want

Yet you seem to ignore the widespread damage the unions can inflict by ordering a strike.

You sure about that? They'll be able to spin the narrative that they're "smashing recalcitrant unions" which will be lapped up by their cheering section in the media. Then we've just had a year in which the passenger railway was basically empty and the sky didn't fall in on the rest of the country and it's been demonstrated that lots of people who used to get the train to work can work from home, for long periods of time. Sure plenty of them will be keen to get back, at least part time, to the office but even if there was a total all out strike MPs will probably find their inboxes full of many fewer letters demanding this be sorted than they would have two years ago. Meanwhile leisure travel is important but it's still something of a minority pursuit when you look at the national transport picture equally business travel is important but also something of a minority pursuit.

To be clear I don't want any "fire and rehire" or "smashing of unions" or anything similar to happen of this to happen but I'm extremely concerned that there's significant risk of a grave strategic miscalculation by ignoring what's happened over the last year and by missing the mood music. This isn't 2015 when the railway was probably at its most (if sometimes often grudgingly) popular with passengers and the wider public. This isn't 2017 when the Government was weak and distracted by brewing the Brexit Wars. This is 2021. The industries reputation with the public is in the toilet after fiascos like the May 2018 timetable change, the Treasury are clearly gunning for getting something in exchange for the billions they spent propping it up*, the Government have a huge majority and a tame media who would love nothing better than a good union breaking story.

I'm seriously concerned that the Unions in question are in danger of over playing their hand which also isn't to suggest that they should just doff their caps and go "yes sir, thank you sir, would sir like to beat me again now or later?" in the face of any demands. But I worry that there's a danger of miscalculation and thinking that the rules that applied previously still apply when I'm really not sure that they do at all.

*50p says that if they had their time over again the Treasury would have insisted that TOCs furlough staff and slash services to a minimum (see Eurostar where staff are rotated on and off of furlough to keep competency whilst running a handful of trains) rather than basically paying out to keep everything as it was pre-pandemic just with fewer trains running.

 

[43096]

People also forget that ultimately drivers still hold power. You might think you can force things on us but the railway would fall apart if we all went on strike and despite what soke people think, that's the last thing the government will want.

Actually, the drivers hold significantly less power than before. The pandemic has massively altered the balance as large numbers of rail’s daily users don’t need to rely on the train to get to work - they can work from home. My local TOC is one where strikes were held in the recent past and it was a PITA. But I frankly don’t care if they go on strike again: I’ll work from home as I have done for the last 15 months.

In the current scenario, it’s turkeys voting for Christmas to go on strike. If I was the Government I’d have used the last year to reform staff T&Cs and it is surprising they haven’t.

 

[tiptoptaff]

You sure about that? They'll be able to spin the narrative that they're "smashing recalcitrant unions" which will be lapped up by their cheering section in the media. Then we've just had a year in which the passenger railway was basically empty and the sky didn't fall in on the rest of the country and it's been demonstrated that lots of people who used to get the train to work can work from home, for long periods of time. Sure plenty of them will be keen to get back, at least part time, to the office but even if there was a total all out strike MPs will probably find their inboxes full of many fewer letters demanding this be sorted than they would have two years ago. Meanwhile leisure travel is important but it's still something of a minority pursuit when you look at the national transport picture equally business travel is important but also something of a minority pursuit.

To be clear I don't want any "fire and rehire" or "smashing of unions" or anything similar to happen of this to happen but I'm extremely concerned that there's significant risk of a grave strategic miscalculation by ignoring what's happened over the last year and by missing the mood music. This isn't 2015 when the railway was probably at its most (if sometimes often grudgingly) popular with passengers and the wider public. This isn't 2017 when the Government was weak and distracted by brewing the Brexit Wars. This is 2021. The industries reputation with the public is in the toilet after fiascos like the May 2018 timetable change, the Treasury are clearly gunning for getting something in exchange for the billions they spent propping it up*, the Government have a huge majority and a tame media who would love nothing better than a good union breaking story.

I'm seriously concerned that the Unions in question are in danger of over playing their hand which also isn't to suggest that they should just doff their caps and go "yes sir, thank you sir, would sir like to beat me again now or later?" in the face of any demands. But I worry that there's a danger of miscalculation and thinking that the rules that applied previously still apply when I'm really not sure that they do at all.

*50p says that if they had their time over again the Treasury would have insisted that TOCs furlough staff and slash services to a minimum (see Eurostar where staff are rotated on and off of furlough to keep competency whilst running a handful of trains) rather than basically paying out to keep everything as it was pre-pandemic just with fewer trains running.

Am I sure? No, not really.

I agree, I don't think the unions positions are anywhere near as strong as they were a few years ago. But I also don't think they're as weak as some people seem to think.

If HMG want to end WFH and return everyone to offices (which their flexi season tickets seem to suggest they're going to use the "May as well pay the extra and use it every day" argument) then the railways will be key to that. And if they go after this, and then pursue a widespread return to offices, all the unions will do is bide their time.

We have to end this attitude of "i/we/they were treated badly, so you should be too" as its no good for anyone.

I also think the magnitude of change required for Sundays inside in all grades has been severely underestimated by HMG, RIRG and many many members of this forum. Its not going to be as cheap, easy and simple as they seem to think, or indeed want to think.

I also don't see why we as staff should sit in silence and accept this constant "you're going to get what you deserve" attitude.

 

[Wolfie]

Yet you seem to ignore the widespread damage the unions can inflict by ordering a strike.

Do I think striking is wise? Probably not. But will it be effective? Certainly for drivers I think so. HMG won't want the country griding to a halt amid an economic recovery.

I'm not going to roll over and take whatever beating you think we deserve because someone else let it happen to them.

I don't think that you deserve a beating. I do know though, having written many of them, the focus on media handling/public opinion that there is in any ministerial submission. In the current context of public sector pay freezes, including for major parts of the NHS, teachers etc, any pay rises in an industry which has been bleeding money hand over fist has zero chance of passing the "Daily Mail' test.
Rightly or wrongly a great swathe of the UK population believe that staff in the rail industry are overpaid already. A pay rise involving more taxpayers money would create a ****-storm reaction. In the current circumstances, where savings are being sought across the board in the public sector, even a cost-neutral solution might not be deemed acceptable.

 

[Non Multi]

If HMG want to end WFH and return everyone to offices (which their flexi season tickets seem to suggest they're going to use the "May as well pay the extra and use it every day" argument) then the railways will be key to that. And if they go after this, and then pursue a widespread return to offices, all the unions will do is bide their time.

Office workers should have the necessary means to work from home now as a fall back position. They're pretty much strike proof.

 

[Wolfie]

You sure about that? They'll be able to spin the narrative that they're "smashing recalcitrant unions" which will be lapped up by their cheering section in the media. Then we've just had a year in which the passenger railway was basically empty and the sky didn't fall in on the rest of the country and it's been demonstrated that lots of people who used to get the train to work can work from home, for long periods of time. Sure plenty of them will be keen to get back, at least part time, to the office but even if there was a total all out strike MPs will probably find their inboxes full of many fewer letters demanding this be sorted than they would have two years ago. Meanwhile leisure travel is important but it's still something of a minority pursuit when you look at the national transport picture equally business travel is important but also something of a minority pursuit.

To be clear I don't want any "fire and rehire" or "smashing of unions" or anything similar to happen of this to happen but I'm extremely concerned that there's significant risk of a grave strategic miscalculation by ignoring what's happened over the last year and by missing the mood music. This isn't 2015 when the railway was probably at its most (if sometimes often grudgingly) popular with passengers and the wider public. This isn't 2017 when the Government was weak and distracted by brewing the Brexit Wars. This is 2021. The industries reputation with the public is in the toilet after fiascos like the May 2018 timetable change, the Treasury are clearly gunning for getting something in exchange for the billions they spent propping it up*, the Government have a huge majority and a tame media who would love nothing better than a good union breaking story.

I'm seriously concerned that the Unions in question are in danger of over playing their hand which also isn't to suggest that they should just doff their caps and go "yes sir, thank you sir, would sir like to beat me again now or later?" in the face of any demands. But I worry that there's a danger of miscalculation and thinking that the rules that applied previously still apply when I'm really not sure that they do at all.

*50p says that if they had their time over again the Treasury would have insisted that TOCs furlough staff and slash services to a minimum (see Eurostar where staff are rotated on and off of furlough to keep competency whilst running a handful of trains) rather than basically paying out to keep everything as it was pre-pandemic just with fewer trains running.

Very thoughtful and nuanced. Probably says what l was trying to better than l managed. I don't hate railway staff or wish them ill as some posters seem to feel. I am genuinely concerned that perhaps too many don't have a realistic view of where we actually are and their real leverage. Change, and likely negative change, is quite likely. It may be that mitigation of the worst aspects is the best that can be achieved.

 

[Stigy]

No. However I don't work for a 7 day a week public service, I work in a 9-5:30 Mon-Fri office job. One reason I chose a 9-5:30 Mon-Fri office job is that it doesn't tend to involve weekend working very often.



So recruit all new staff to always work Sundays initially until it evens out. But then people will moan "differential T&Cs" - but so what? You worry about your T&Cs. People taking new roles take them or not based on what is offered. Collective bargaining does make some sense, but it doesn't mean everyone has to be on identical T&Cs.

There is clearly a problem, I have an issue with the prevailing attitude being that no solution to it is acceptable because some staff quite like having optional weekend overtime that isn't contracted. If something isn't contracted, you can't rely on having it. I used to get periodic bonuses and now I don't because after a couple of takeovers my employer's approach to that has changed, and that's just how it is because they were not contractual.

So if for argument’s sake you accepted a job whereby you could chose to work Sundays at an enhanced rate, but didn’t have to, and Boris and Co. suddenly came along and took that away, you’d be happy with that because it’s going to be a 7 day a week Railaway?….

 

[Bletchleyite]

So if for argument’s sake you accepted a job whereby you could chose to work Sundays at an enhanced rate, but didn’t have to, and Boris and Co. suddenly came along and took that away, you’d be happy with that because it’s going to be a 7 day a week Railaway?….

I've already explained that an analogous situation has happened to me (in terms of non-contractual bonus payments) and yes, I accept that as it's non-contractual it's not great but it is what it is. If I don't like it I have the option to look for a new job. I've chosen not to because the grass isn't always greener.

 

[ComUtoR]

...and the sky didn't fall in on the rest of the country and it's been demonstrated that lots of people who used to get the train to work can work from home, for long periods of time.

But the sky did fall. How many buisness have suffered and or closed because of the Pandemic ? Look at Pumpkin, who's buisness was dependent on the railway running and having commuters. The city was a ghost town and will struggle to get back too. How much rental income will be lost ? How much will be lost in buisness rates etc ?

There is a reason why there is a push to get prople back onto the railway. It isn't some Union idealism to prevent wage reduction and job loss. The railway is a vital lifeline and links various parts of this country together. Slash and burn is a worrying trend. Remember the Beeching cuts. Will this be another time where the railways gets slashed to ribbons and we regret it in 10yrs time ?

A recent example of recruitment issues for the driving grade was the Thameslink fiasco. Stopping/reducing recruitment might save some short term capital but the long term affect of no training puts us in a precarious position.

 

[Stigy]

Office workers should have the necessary means to work from home now as a fall back position. They're pretty much strike proof.

A lot of office worker, yes. However not all office workers can work from home and I would imagine a fair few employers of office workers won’t want staff at home.

 

[Meerkat]

A lot of office worker, yes. However not all office workers can work from home and I would imagine a fair few employers of office workers won’t want staff at home.

Can probably work from home and outlast a strike.
and crucially the most able to WFH will be those in the leafy suburbs that Tory MPs fear

 

[Watershed]

Am I sure? No, not really.

I agree, I don't think the unions positions are anywhere near as strong as they were a few years ago. But I also don't think they're as weak as some people seem to think.

Arthur Scargill and the NUM come to mind. I would not wish their fate upon anyone.

If HMG want to end WFH and return everyone to offices (which their flexi season tickets seem to suggest they're going to use the "May as well pay the extra and use it every day" argument) then the railways will be key to that. And if they go after this, and then pursue a widespread return to offices, all the unions will do is bide their time.

I'm not at all sure HMG are commited to a return to the office. But even if they are - the vast majority of office commutes have always been by car or bus, so even a general rail strike would only have a limited effect on attempts to bring people back into the office.

We have to end this attitude of "i/we/they were treated badly, so you should be too" as its no good for anyone.

I don't think anyone here is of that mindset. But if the government says the most it can offer NHS workers is a 1% increase, what chance do you think the rail industry has? The Daily Mail view of the industry is relevant, for right or wrong.

I also think the magnitude of change required for Sundays inside in all grades has been severely underestimated by HMG, RIRG and many many members of this forum. Its not going to be as cheap, easy and simple as they seem to think, or indeed want to think.

If rail services are to operate to a reduced timetable on a short to medium term basis, at many TOCs you would be able to bring Sunday into the working week without needing to hire more traincrew. Such is the level of spare coverage at many places right now.

The 'not so easy' bit will be what the traincrew get in exchange for putting Sunday in the working week.

So if for argument’s sake you accepted a job whereby you could chose to work Sundays at an enhanced rate, but didn’t have to, and Boris and Co. suddenly came along and took that away, you’d be happy with that because it’s going to be a 7 day a week Railaway?….

If the choice is between accepting that, and being made redundant, I think the majority of people would take it.

 

[choochoochoo]

In my opinion a lot of the current HMG have a vested interest in getting people back in the offices. Those city properties/rental incomes make up large parts of a lot of ministers investment portfolios and lots of pension funds.

 

[mandub]

My observation.

Majority at my depot accept changes are coming and understand it.
No appetite at all for strikes.
ASLEF are pretty clued up on this front I think and would be loathe to call for any industrial action. Don't think it's likely at all unless the Govt deliberately pushes for it with scorched earth policies like fire/rehire etc - which it doesn't seem they will do......

Sundays inside the week is coming, finally. I don't want it, but it's happening.
ASLEF want it, Govt want it, the TOC's will now want it too (management contracts rather than for profit concession).
It will be done on the cheap relative to what Drivers could've got for it pre pandemic. **** happens. It's a new day.
And, it's not a £4K paycut. We work OT for that £4K now. We will be a true 35hr week once Sundays are imposed.

 

[tiptoptaff]

My observation.

Majority at my depot accept changes are coming and understand it.
No appetite at all for strikes.
ASLEF are pretty clued up on this front I think and would be loathe to call for any industrial action. Don't think it's likely at all unless the Govt deliberately pushes for it with scorched earth policies like fire/rehire etc - which it doesn't seem they will do......

Sundays inside the week is coming, finally. I don't want it, but it's happening.
ASLEF want it, Govt want it, the TOC's will now want it too (management contracts rather than for profit concession).
It will be done on the cheap relative to what Drivers could've got for it pre pandemic. **** happens. It's a new day.
And, it's not a £4K paycut. We work OT for that £4K now. We will be a true 35hr week once Sundays are imposed.

Yes it is, in real terms. At my TOC, Sundays are overtime but committed. So although not in my base salary, I'm all but guaranteed that 4k. Take it away and it's a cut.

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder if re-instating some of the network wide travel priveledges that have been lost to newcomers since privatisation, might be a way of easing the transition to a seven day week.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I wonder if re-instating some of the network wide travel priveledges that have been lost to newcomers since privatisation, might be a way of easing the transition to a seven day week.

Yes and no - these days, a large percentage of staff don't use their travel passes outside of work. For those who don't use them, it won't be seen as much of an incentive

 

[yorksrob]

Yes and no - these days, a large percentage of staff don't use their travel passes outside of work. For those who don't use them, it won't be seen as much of an incentive

There is that. I wonder how much of that is down to limitations on where you can go. It's probably less desirable if you're restricted to the area in which you work anyway.

 

[tiptoptaff]

There is that. I wonder how much of that is down to limitations on where you can go. It's probably less desirable if you're restricted to the area in which you work anyway.

I think it's more they just don't need to. A lot of the staff I work with don't want to be near trains on their day off. I used to make good use of my free/priv travel before I had kids, now we just use trains when it's as convenient as driving. Can't get a train to Peppa Pig World, and apparently, that's not a good enough excuse not to go....

I think if some restrictions were relaxed on it - eg allowed 1st class duty travel, Std class pass holders able to buy privs in 1st, then more people may see the improvements to staff travel as a fair deal

 

[Mintona]

I don’t think there’s going to be a pay rise for Sundays. A ‘here’s your new contract, you now work five days a week including Sundays and your base pay is £40000’ is far more likely.

 

[AlterEgo]

Commuters aren't the only ones who use trains.

They're not, but they're the user group for whom a reliable rail service matters most. Industrial action has always relied on the political anathema of brining collateral industries in big cities to a halt by stopping their employees getting to work.

 

[Ianno87]

They're not, but they're the user group for whom a reliable rail service matters most. Industrial action has always relied on the political anathema of brining collateral industries in big cities to a halt by stopping their employees getting to work.

Not any more. Working from Home has made some fundamental difference to the disruptive effect of strikes.

 

[Andrew1395]

Any resistance to including Sunday as part of the working week, wont be an all out strike, it would be tactical industrial action, such as not working Sundays, or not working rest days. If the nation is not disrupted by action on Sundays, then the government wont cave in, but then again it would have shown that there is little point in having the Sunday services, if no one is inconvenienced by there withdrawal. Of course though the withdrawal of Sunday trains would have a big impact on the economy of cities, and citizens wanting to undertake journeys and therefore would be effect action.

Drivers have probably done best out of privatisation in terms of take home pay for hours worked, but some of the bosses have done very well too. I think the Chief Executive of British Rail in 1993 earnt considerably less than an equivalent in Network rail (even allowing for inflation). So maybe a national recasting of salaries into say four or five national bands Executives, Management, Salaried, Drivers and operation grades?

 

[yorksrob]

I think it's more they just don't need to. A lot of the staff I work with don't want to be near trains on their day off. I used to make good use of my free/priv travel before I had kids, now we just use trains when it's as convenient as driving. Can't get a train to Peppa Pig World, and apparently, that's not a good enough excuse not to go....

I think if some restrictions were relaxed on it - eg allowed 1st class duty travel, Std class pass holders able to buy privs in 1st, then more people may see the improvements to staff travel as a fair deal

I must admit, I've never had reason to know the public transport options for Peppa Pig World

 

[Watershed]

I wonder if re-instating some of the network wide travel priveledges that have been lost to newcomers since privatisation, might be a way of easing the transition to a seven day week.

I think greater flexibility on "residential" (aka commuting) validity would be the most likely scenario - perhaps a return to ye olde days where you got 8 miles' season ticket for free, or 40 miles around London. Or simply having industry-wide residential interavailability.

That would particularly tie in with the proposals for people to be moved around the industry, as part of the RIRG voluntary redundancy and retraining scheme.

However it's worth noting that, for those below Management/C-level grade, today's arrangements are arguably more generous in some ways. For example, there was never such a thing as a "Priv" card before privatisation - tickets had to be applied for in advance. Instead there was more region-based validity, which of course cut both ways.

I think it's more they just don't need to. A lot of the staff I work with don't want to be near trains on their day off. I used to make good use of my free/priv travel before I had kids, now we just use trains when it's as convenient as driving. Can't get a train to Peppa Pig World, and apparently, that's not a good enough excuse not to go....

I think if some restrictions were relaxed on it - eg allowed 1st class duty travel, Std class pass holders able to buy privs in 1st, then more people may see the improvements to staff travel as a fair deal

1st class duty travel would really just involve endorsing what has long unofficially gone on. For as long as 1st class remains empty, it's a pragmatic thing to do. That said, if 1st class demand returns, people need to be prepared to 'downgrade' of course.

Allowing standard class Priv holders to upgrade to 1st also sounds sensible, albeit most operators now allow Weekend First or Seatfrog upgrades as appropriate.