Sadiq Khan to make face masks a condition of carriage

[island]

Presumably if you purchase your ticket now, (or have a season ricket etc) the current conditions are the ones which apply! Unless they continue to use the Byelaw 14 "safety notice" to criminalise non compliance.

Only if you bought your ticket prior to 07•JUN•21, when the TfL conditions of carriage brought in a face covering requirement.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Masks are all part of the ‘Covid theatre’, being seen to ‘do something’ regardless of whether it has any effect or not.
There is a video being circulated on Twitter (can’t find a link at the moment) that shows a contractor in full hazmat gear being photographed by a colleague at Finsbury Park station. He’s posing and ‘showing’ thorough cleaning of counters and TVMs (whilst not doing it fully), presumably for GTR publicity around ‘doing everything to keep people safe’

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Only if you bought your ticket prior to 07•JUN•21, when the TfL conditions of carriage brought in a face covering requirement.

That doesn't look enforceable to me either, as the wording is clearly relating to Pre July 19 enforcement measures, fines etc.

Either way, I'm sure some people will have a season ticket purchase before 07 June, in which case the entire thing falls down, as you then have an entire set of passengers who can ignore the new contractual requirement perfectly legally.

 

[big_rig]

The 50% who say they would stop using public transport if masks were not mandated may be those who hardly use public transport anyway.

I think from memory the LTW survey was of regular/semi-regular users which makes it even more strange - it was 'better' than those polls which show 70% of people not wanting to go to a nightclub for instance, when 70% of the population haven't set foot in one in a decade. I suspect they knew that putting in a follow-up question (e.g how do you plan on getting from Finchley to the West End if not via tube) would be contrary to the obvious aims of their survey which was to push masks.

 

[kristiang85]

Masks are all part of the ‘Covid theatre’, being seen to ‘do something’ regardless of whether it has any effect or not.
There is a video being circulated on Twitter (can’t find a link at the moment) that shows a contractor in full hazmat gear being photographed by a colleague at Finsbury Park station. He’s posing and ‘showing’ thorough cleaning of counters and TVMs (whilst not doing it fully), presumably for GTR publicity around ‘doing everything to keep people safe’

I saw this video. The full hazmat gear was hilarious (and he just takes it off after performing the charade). It was maybe justified last March, but now with covid effectively nullified to the point of near irrelevance in the grand scheme of serious pathogens and disease, it is simply laughable.

As for mask compliance on the tube, I completely forgot to put mine on the other week and only noticed near the end of the journey. Not one person had batted an eyelid as far as I know.

 

[RPI]

Interesting Khan has just said in an interview that it will also now be a byelaw
Link below but its from the live stream.

Government accused of using 'foolish' Northern Ireland amnesty to shore up 'narrow party support'

Labour has accused the Government of cynically creating an amnesty for Troubles-era crimes in Northern Ireland to "shore up narrow party support".

www.telegraph.co.uk

Making masks mandatory on TfL is 'imperfect solution', says Sadiq Khan​

Having to make Transport for London (TfL) enforce the use of mask wearing on buses and trains is an "imperfect solution", Sadiq Khan has said.
The Mayor has asked TfL to retain face coverings as a mandatory measure after next Monday, when national guidance changes.
Speaking to Good Morning Britain, he said: "Because we don't have national backing, we're going to make it a condition of carriage. This is an imperfect solution. We are working on passing a bylaw to make it a law too."
Conditions of carriage are contractual conditions between passengers and TfL, which include not consuming alcohol.

 

[island]

Interesting Khan has just said in an interview that it will also now become a byelaw!

He says a lot of things.

 

[Horizon22]

The rail delivery groups statement was fairly clear. Although I am yet to see it followed up by an operating company.

I’ve seen some repeat it to customers on Twitter and social media when asked directly about the mask rule.

What I find odd is that proper mask usage (over nose and mouth for whole journey) has been slipping for months. I have only once seen someone challenged (by another passenger and it didn’t go well…) and never any enforcement - despite TfL claims to the later of stopping however thousand people. So if it is ALREADY law and being broken, I hardly expect additional enforcement. It just sets TfL to get bombarded with abuse from angry maskers when a) they don’t enforce it, b) there’s low compliance.

It puts staff in a difficult position, not to mention at shared interchanges and I note BBC’s London transport correspondent has picked up on this discrepancy. Will be a confusing mess and people won’t bother.

 

[Philip]

People read too deep into things sometimes, I don't think it is much a case of virtue signalling or trying to be authoritative, rather people want to be cautious right now; this includes the general public and leaders like Khan and Burnham (if he goes with the same mandate).

 

[Bantamzen]

Masks are all part of the ‘Covid theatre’, being seen to ‘do something’ regardless of whether it has any effect or not.
There is a video being circulated on Twitter (can’t find a link at the moment) that shows a contractor in full hazmat gear being photographed by a colleague at Finsbury Park station. He’s posing and ‘showing’ thorough cleaning of counters and TVMs (whilst not doing it fully), presumably for GTR publicity around ‘doing everything to keep people safe’

I just want to bang my head on the desk....

 

[Watershed]

Interesting Khan has just said in an interview that it will also now be a byelaw
Link below but its from the live stream.

Government accused of using 'foolish' Northern Ireland amnesty to shore up 'narrow party support'

Labour has accused the Government of cynically creating an amnesty for Troubles-era crimes in Northern Ireland to "shore up narrow party support".

www.telegraph.co.uk

If he issues a "safety instruction" under Byelaw 12 then he doesn't need to change anything to introduce it.

The question will be whether it qualifies as a legitimate safety instruction - in the same way as, for example, "stand back from the platform edge" - in the current circumstances.

I feared things would head this way. The only upside I can see is that it should give some evidence to prove who is 'right'.

 

[big_rig]

He says a lot of things.

He is now saying that masks must be donned on national rail services as soon as the train 'enters London's geographic area.' Lol.

 

[Failed Unit]

He is now saying that masks must be donned on national rail services as soon as the train 'enters London's geographic area.' Lol.

Which is where exactly? Interesting idea. For example we can use a TfL fare from Stevenage, but I think it is Hadley Wood on the Great Northern line where is is the geographic area. Good luck with that Sadiq on an LNER first stop York.

 

[yorkie]

I am reminded of this thread:

Who has the legal power to prosecute in Network Rail Station?

Can London Underground prosecutors prosecute anyone in a Network Rail Station (Barking Station to be precise) using Byelaw 17(1) of the Transport for London Railway Byelaws?

www.railforums.co.uk

Interesting Khan has just said in an interview that it will also now be a byelaw
Link below but its from the live stream.

Government accused of using 'foolish' Northern Ireland amnesty to shore up 'narrow party support'

Labour has accused the Government of cynically creating an amnesty for Troubles-era crimes in Northern Ireland to "shore up narrow party support".

www.telegraph.co.uk

I think Sadiq Khan lacks intelligence, an ability to think critically, and he lacks moral integrity. He also lacks empathy.

He says a lot of things.

He certainly does

What I find odd is that proper mask usage (over nose and mouth for whole journey) has been slipping for months....

It's more symbolic than anything. Someone wearing a flimsy ineffective mask improperly is seen as compliant. They could be unvaccinated and infected but those who believe in masks are happy to get close to them.

In contrast, a fully vaccinated healthy person not wearing a mask is seen as non-compliant by the authoritarians. None of this is based on any logic or scientific evidence.

People read too deep into things sometimes, I don't think it is much a case of virtue signalling or trying to be authoritative....

I disagree, but then we disagree on many topics, so this is not a surprise

It puts staff in a difficult position, not to mention at shared interchanges and I note BBC’s London transport correspondent has picked up on this discrepancy. Will be a confusing mess and people won’t bother.

If a passenger is not travelling on TfL, I do not see how it can possibly apply.

I suspect Khan/TfL are trying to pressure Rail Delivery Group behind the scenes. I wouldn't put it past them. I think it would be interesting if some FOI requests were made to see what they're up to.

 

[island]

He is now saying that masks must be donned on national rail services as soon as the train 'enters London's geographic area.' Lol.

That, I can safely say, is wibble.

 

[Horizon22]

If a passenger is not travelling on TfL, I do not see how it can possibly apply.

I suspect Khan/TfL are trying to pressure Rail Delivery Group behind the scenes. I wouldn't put it past them. I think it would be interesting if some FOI requests were made to see what they're up to.

The BBC live feed quote him as saying this

"A number of services coming to London in London aren't my responsibility and what we are saying is when you're in London you've got to be following our rules, just like if you're on a train going to Scotland, you've got to follow the rules in Scotland and indeed in Wales where the wearing of face masks is still compulsory," he says.

Which sounds ridiculous. Almost like he’s expecting everyone to know where the Greater London border is and put the mask on past West Drayton or Chelsfield or Bushey! Or when you get off your train at a London terminal then you put your mask on (again unenforceable). Bizarre situation this will end up being and as others have stated, for how long. The Scots have said it could be until Xmas…

 

[RPI]

The BBC live feed quote him as saying this



Which sounds ridiculous. Almost like he’s expecting everyone to know where the Greater London border is and put the mask on past West Drayton or Chelsfield or Bushey! Or when you get off your train at a London terminal then you put your mask on (again unenforceable). Bizarre situation this will end up being and as others have stated, for how long. The Scots have said it could be until Xmas…

Basically Khan is trying to make it seem more complicated in order to try and make his point seem valid and to try and get RDG to follow, I really hope RDG stand their ground

 

[bramling]

The BBC live feed quote him as saying this



Which sounds ridiculous. Almost like he’s expecting everyone to know where the Greater London border is and put the mask on past West Drayton or Chelsfield or Bushey! Or when you get off your train at a London terminal then you put your mask on (again unenforceable). Bizarre situation this will end up being and as others have stated, for how long. The Scots have said it could be until Xmas…

Khan is playing politics, pure and simple. He seems to want to annex off London from the rest of England. He has always been a divisive individual.

The best thing to do is to ignore this, and by definition him, which is what London already seems to be largely doing. I’m amazed they keep voting for him, but then one looks at the opposition candidates...

Ignoring Khan isn’t a difficult one for me, as far as I’m concerned as I don’t get a say in voting for him, I regard him as an illegitimate politician.

 

[DanNCL]

What powers, if any, have the DFT or central government got to force Sadiq Khan to drop this absurd policy?

 

[bramling]

What powers, if any, have the DFT or central government got to force Sadiq Khan to drop this absurd policy?

I’m surprised something wasn’t put in the conditions for the funding deal.

 

[big_rig]

Basically Khan is trying to make it seem more complicated in order to try and make his point seem valid and to try and get RDG to follow, I really hope RDG stand their ground

Yep. "Oh look how complicated it is/I am making it, just make them mandatory everywhere, forever, that will be simple." I am loathe to bring the word into it and it is just a comment but honestly masks are the next Brexit for Khan. It is his route into getting into the news and saying he is different to the Government. He would have us wearing the things until the end of recorded time if it got him an afternoon or two of good news. It's all completely made up on the hoof as the bizarre comments about 'London's geographic boundary' show.

If only he had focused on his promises to build more cycle infrastructure between London rail stations, it would be safer to ride a bike instead of bother with the tube. He has since scrubbed the TfL website of all references to these promises though. Easier to get on TV to talk about masks than it is to build things.

 

[LAX54]

The reaction most Londoners will take from this is “tube too dangerous, better drive”.

And more pennies in the Kitty from the Congestion charge ! nice little side line there

I saw this video. The full hazmat gear was hilarious (and he just takes it off after performing the charade). It was maybe justified last March, but now with covid effectively nullified to the point of near irrelevance in the grand scheme of serious pathogens and disease, it is simply laughable.

As for mask compliance on the tube, I completely forgot to put mine on the other week and only noticed near the end of the journey. Not one person had batted an eyelid as far as I know.

More and more Doctors and 'Scientists' seem to be popping out of the woodwork saying. .when asked about masks......."Well, really........................"

 

[Smidster]

What powers, if any, have the DFT or central government got to force Sadiq Khan to drop this absurd policy?

Central Government are supportive of the Mayors stance.

 

[Watershed]

What powers, if any, have the DFT or central government got to force Sadiq Khan to drop this absurd policy?

They could simply make it a condition of the next bailout. In extremis they could pass legislation preventing a mandate from being introduced.

I'm surprised they didn't make cooperation on masks a condition of the last bailout. But unfortunately the government seems to be quite relaxed on this, as scrapping the general mandate means the backbenchers are off their backs.

The backbenchers will now direct their ire towards TfL if at all, but they have effectively no power over them, so "everyone's happy". Apart from those forced to wear a mask.

 

[island]

What powers, if any, have the DFT or central government got to force Sadiq Khan to drop this absurd policy?

In extremis they can pass primary legislation removing or constricting the mayor’s powers or overriding anything he does, or make further funding settlements to TfL conditional on him doing such and such, but these are nuclear options.

 

[DanNCL]

Central Government are supportive of the Mayors stance.

The same government that is removing mask wearing from law... Sadly it doesn't surprise me with the clowns we have in government!

They could simply make it a condition of the next bailout. In extremis they could pass legislation preventing a mandate from being introduced.

I'm surprised they didn't make cooperation on masks a condition of the last bailout. But unfortunately the government seems to be quite relaxed on this, as scrapping the general mandate means the backbenchers are off their backs.

The backbenchers will now direct their ire towards TfL if at all, but they have effectively no power over them, so "everyone's happy". Apart from those forced to wear a mask.

In extremis they can pass primary legislation removing or constricting the mayor’s powers or overriding anything he does, or make further funding settlements to TfL conditional on him doing such and such, but these are nuclear options.

In my opinion this is serious enough to justify the "nuclear option" to sort it out, as with the way things currently stand it will undermine public confidence in public transport as well as cause plenty of needless confusion.

 

[Horizon22]

What powers, if any, have the DFT or central government got to force Sadiq Khan to drop this absurd policy?

Seeing as Shapps said he was “relaxed” about operators instituting mask wearing, I’d say very little. Masks on part of the underground are sensible anyway considering the poor air quality. But it’s a completely disjointed, isolated approach which will confuse many and has no end date.

 

[Watershed]

In my opinion this is serious enough to justify the "nuclear option" to sort it out, as with the way things currently stand it will undermine public confidence in public transport as well as cause plenty of needless confusion.

I think the thing to understand is that the government isn't removing the mask mandate because they think it's pointless or counterproductive, or even because they care about freedom.

They're purely removing it as a symbolic measure, to quell their backbenchers' dissent.

To soothe the hypochondriacs they've encouraged operators to introduce their own mandates and they're unlikely to go back on that.

You're quite right - this stinks of the kind of petty federal vs state disputes you get in the US, which is no way to run a country. But unfortunately that's how it seems to be ending up...

 

[Horizon22]

And more pennies in the Kitty from the Congestion charge ! nice little side line there

Driving in the CC zone is still absolutely hellish and more expensive at all times now. The vast majority of people won’t consider that - they’ll just not follow the mask wearing rules strictly as people have already been doing for some time.

 

[kristiang85]

Masks are all part of the ‘Covid theatre’, being seen to ‘do something’ regardless of whether it has any effect or not.
There is a video being circulated on Twitter (can’t find a link at the moment) that shows a contractor in full hazmat gear being photographed by a colleague at Finsbury Park station. He’s posing and ‘showing’ thorough cleaning of counters and TVMs (whilst not doing it fully), presumably for GTR publicity around ‘doing everything to keep people safe’

I've found it:

https://twitter.com/TanyaRo58329998/status/1414983434351648770?s=19