Scotrail absolving themselves of responsibility?

[Bertie the bus]

There were more people attempting to travel than the operator could reasonably make alternative arrangements for.

You can’t magic people onto a bus or into a taxi that doesn’t exist.

I fail to see what further practical alternatives the operator could have offered.

So if the taxis don't exist how do you suggest these people made their way home? ScotRail should have honoured their contract with the passengers and arranged taxis home if there were no buses. Just saying we (sort of) tried but failed so tough isn't acceptable or professional.

 

[Ianno87]

So if the taxis don't exist how do you suggest these people made their way home?

Arranged lifts, crashed on friends' sofas etc etc. Stuff that the railway couldn't arrange.

 

[Robertj21a]

If there were no trains, buses, taxis, or hotel beds......what do you feel that Scotrail should have done ?

 

[Bertie the bus]

Arranged lifts, crashed on friends' sofas etc etc. Stuff that the railway couldn't arrange.

I see you only selectively quoted my post and conveniently missed the bit out about abiding by the terms of their contract.

If there were no trains, buses, taxis, or hotel beds......what do you feel that Scotrail should have done ?

Who says that is the case? ScotRail said they couldn't arrange buses. Absolutely nothing about no taxis or spare hotel rooms in Edinburgh, which is totally unbelievable anyway when Scotland currently has few to none foreign tourists.

 

[Ianno87]

I see you only selectively quoted my post and conveniently missed the bit out about abiding by the terms of their contract.

The contract is pretty irrelevant when it simply can't practically be done.

 

[Stewart2887]

I'm from Edinburgh. Haven't taxis discovered online card payments? Night buses? No more nights out in the city for me even in Oxford

 

[Bertie the bus]

The contract is pretty irrelevant when it simply can't practically be done.

They will have done what the railway always does – make the absolute minimum amount of effort and then just give up. It simply isn’t believable that there was nothing they could do. They just couldn’t be bothered trying.

 

[Ianno87]

They will have done what the railway always does – make the absolute minimum amount of effort and then just give up. It simply isn’t believable that there was nothing they could do. They just couldn’t be bothered trying.

How many people do you think Scotrail have just sitting around to sort out such things late in the evening?

 

[Darandio]

So many excuses.

 

[XAM2175]

Do we actually have any information about the response or is this whole thread so far based entirely on the wording of one tweet?

 

[43066]

I would hope that you wouldn't have gone out without some forethought - enough money (ATM, even if only a credit card), find an ordinary service bus, walk, phone family/a friend......

Too many people expect everybody else to do everything for them, even in times of crisis. As others have suggested, there are times when the individual has to be prepared to look after themselves (and possibly others who may be in greater need).

Good to see we have (finally) found something we agree on!

 

[Bikeman78]

It seems I got off lightly last week. I'm glad I got the first available train out of Edinburgh when the signals conked out.

 

[GLC]

If the problem was between Waverley and Haymarket, couldn't they have run some diesel services around the sub? Even a very limited service?

Diesel services did continue to run between Haymarket and Waverley directly, however they also experienced disruption, as grounded electric units were occupying platforms. I’m not sure what using the Sub would have achieved anyway, do Scotrail drivers even sign it?

 

[Falcon1200]

They will have done what the railway always does – make the absolute minimum amount of effort and then just give up. It simply isn’t believable that there was nothing they could do. They just couldn’t be bothered trying.

Having worked in a railway Control room for 30 years, responsible for dealing with disruption and, at times, arranging buses, hotels, accommodation and occasionally ferries for delayed passengers, that statement is complete and utter nonsense.

Who says that is the case? ScotRail said they couldn't arrange buses. Absolutely nothing about no taxis or spare hotel rooms in Edinburgh, which is totally unbelievable anyway when Scotland currently has few to none foreign tourists.

How many passengers do you think were affected by this incident, which utterly paralysed practically every service in and out of Edinburgh ? I would estimate several thousand. With the best will in the world there are only so many buses, taxis and hotel rooms available.

 

[Highlandspring]

I’m not sure what using the Sub would have achieved anyway, do Scotrail drivers even sign it?

Some Edinburgh drivers do sign the Sub (I think just a handful in one link) but I don’t think any conductors do, so you wouldn’t be able to run in passenger service anyway.

CrossCountry did divert their 1E90 1900 Glasgow Central to York via the Sub.

 

[tspaul26]

Reimbursement of *reasonable* costs of alternative arrangements would indeed be due, AIUI (as long as evidence is kept in the form of unused train tickets, taxi receipts etc.), but that still requires the passenger to be able to front the cost of alternative transport in the first place.

If people are physically unable to make these arrangements for themselves because insufficient taxis are available, I’m not sure what the railway can be expected to. It cannot magic buses and taxis out of nowhere at the drop of a hat, late on a Friday evening, to accommodate potentially thousands of stranded passengers.

The railway is in breach; the railway pays.

A taxi or an hotel room would be availed or a price. If that is the going rate then so be it - even if it is otherwise unreasonable, as long as the loss is mitigated then the railway must pay.

And there is no strict requirement to obtain or retain receipts for this purpose.

However, experience of past incidents (with ScotRail and others) suggests that many people will not try to recover their losses at all and, for those who do, ScotRail will be obstructive and delay paying.

 

[MotCO]

How many people do you think Scotrail have just sitting around to sort out such things late in the evening?

In times of massive disruption, are there not any managers on-call who could have taken charge, or bought more colleagues in to man the twitter feeds or phone lines?

 

[Wyrleybart]

In times of massive disruption, are there not any managers on-call who could have taken charge, or bought more colleagues in to man the twitter feeds or phone lines?

Trying to bring additional staff in to cover disruption in this day and age is very difficult. The vast majority of railway staff are on a good salary and few want or need overtime. There is no such things as "for the love of the job" anymore, simply because most people work very hard on the booked turns of duty and look forward to their rest days off, away from work.

 

[43066]

The railway is in breach; the railway pays.

In principle, perhaps, but principle isn’t going to get you home late on a Friday night when trains are unable to run. Occasionally in life things go wrong and it becomes necessary to deal with contingencies.

A taxi or an hotel room would be availed or a price. If that is the going rate then so be it - even if it is otherwise unreasonable, as long as the loss is mitigated then the railway must pay.

The practical reality is that, in any town or city, there will be a finite number of taxis and rooms available: potentially insufficient for thousands of people at short notice.

The people “at the coal face” may well also not be in a position to organise/authorise payment for taxis or hotel rooms, late on a Friday night.

And there is no strict requirement to obtain or retain receipts for this purpose.

But I’m sure you’d agree that anyone wanting to make a claim for a loss incurred due to a breach of contract would be best advised to record some evidence of it. In the absence of said evidence, the TOC would most likely ignore the claim.

However, experience of past incidents (with ScotRail and others) suggests that many people will not try to recover their losses at all and, for those who do, ScotRail will be obstructive and delay paying.

That sounds like a commercially sensible strategy to me. If the TOC instructed you, would you advise them to settle all claims immediately and without question? I think not.

 

[Watershed]

Trying to bring additional staff in to cover disruption in this day and age is very difficult. The vast majority of railway staff are on a good salary and few want or need overtime. There is no such things as "for the love of the job" anymore, simply because most people work very hard on the booked turns of duty and look forward to their rest days off, away from work.

The majority of railway management are salaried and do not get paid overtime.

 

[MotCO]

Trying to bring additional staff in to cover disruption in this day and age is very difficult. The vast majority of railway staff are on a good salary and few want or need overtime. There is no such things as "for the love of the job" anymore, simply because most people work very hard on the booked turns of duty and look forward to their rest days off, away from work.

I used to work in the NHS, and was on-call for one week in nine, for which I received 2 or 3% of my salary. Mosts weeks I had a call of some description. However, if a Major Incident was declared, junior staff could also be called in man the incident room; I can't recall how they were compensated, but there was no shortage of volunteers.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I used to work in the NHS, and was on-call for one week in nine, for which I received 2 or 3% of my salary. Mosts weeks I had a call of some description. However, if a Major Incident was declared, junior staff could also be called in man the incident room; I can't recall how they were compensated, but there was no shortage of volunteers.

Totally get that, and obviously on call staff could be called out. However most traincrew aren't on call, although I don't know how contract hours crew work these days. I speak as a crew controller celebrating 43 years on the railway, and can tell you a huge change has taken place in the last few years. People tend to work harder when at work, I do certainly do, so the rest days are for relaxing away from work.

 

[MotCO]

Totally get that, and obviously on call staff could be called out. However most traincrew aren't on call, although I don't know how contract hours crew work these days. I speak as a crew controller celebrating 43 years on the railway, and can tell you a huge change has taken place in the last few years. People tend to work harder when at work, I do certainly do, so the rest days are for relaxing away from work.

I was thinking more of backroom staff being called out to assist the twitter and communications team. If there is a problem at Edinburgh, I assume the HelpPoints and Twitter links would be used extensively; having backroom staff called in to help (or in this day and age, possibly responding from home if they had up to date information), then that would help the passengers.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

If the railway service is considerably disrupted and passengers are having great difficulty completing their journeys due to scant provision of buses etc., how are backroom staff going to be able to get into work to be able to assist? And as for WFH, what may work well during the day is likely to get short shrift on a Friday night from the rest of family in many cases.

 

[chris_in_salop]

Trying to bring additional staff in to cover disruption in this day and age is very difficult. The vast majority of railway staff are on a good salary and few want or need overtime. There is no such things as "for the love of the job" anymore, simply because most people work very hard on the booked turns of duty and look forward to their rest days off, away from work.

If I were a Tory (which I most definitely am not), I'd look at that and think - it's time for mass restructuring and redundancies to make staff fearful for their jobs.

 

[John Bishop]

If I were a Tory (which I most definitely am not), I'd look at that and think - it's time for mass restructuring and redundancies to make staff fearful for their jobs.

Transport is devolved to Scotland, so not sure how that would work in reality.

 

[DarloRich]

The contract is pretty irrelevant when it simply can't practically be done.

Agreed - then you are into seeking redress later.

I have been stranded many times by train failures. You hang about for a bit to see if anything is organised then you start organising yourself and trying to find out where people are going, followed by commandeering a taxi for 4 people going in roughly the same direction and setting off home. That or stay at the station looking lost for hours.

I have always kept a receipt, contacted the TOC and asked for a refund and never once have I been refused. At times you have to take personal responsibility for getting home, annoying and frustrating as that can be.

 

[1955LR]

I have claimed a number of times for out of pocket expenses for train delays, such as missing the last bus and needed to take a taxi , £20 instead of free bus pass. This is of course consequential loss rather than delay repay. They have never been declined.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Agreed - then you are into seeking redress later.

I have been stranded many times by train failures. You hang about for a bit to see if anything is organised then you start organising yourself and trying to find out where people are going, followed by commandeering a taxi for 4 people going in roughly the same direction and setting off home. That or stay at the station looking lost for hours.

I have always kept a receipt, contacted the TOC and asked for a refund and never once have I been refused. At times you have to take personal responsibility for getting home, annoying and frustrating as that can be.

A very good reply - one of the carnage events on Thameslink (West Hamsptead) - some years ago - we did just that with a Black cab - and at SAC , the driver was able to get a return trip to London with other stranded passengers - all of us happy . Particularly the cab driver.

Other times have seen money taken out a booking office and the staff arranged local transport for cash in hand - minibuses and taxi's (but receipts obtained of course)

Bit of personal planning and some local empowerment can make a difference.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bit of personal planning and some local empowerment can make a difference.

That very much so, and how much local staff are empowered to solve local problems does vary a lot by TOC.