Re-opening Colne to Skipton

[SouthwestMann]

Good morning everyone! Is there any news on the re-opening of the Colne to Skipton line? It seems to have gone quiet recently. Down here in the south we‘re awaiting news of the re-opening of the Marchwood to Fawley section of the Warerside line. From Tottenham to Marchwood the railway is busy with traffic to the Militsry Port on Southampton Water.

 

[bluenoxid]

Yes, it has gone quiet. I think they’re waiting for the Integrated Rail Plan and updated railway pipeline (which they were included on)

A recent crowd funding attempt to cover the cost of reports/studies has failed to gain sufficient funding.

A lot of people are not aware of the challenges with the proposal to restore the railway line between Colne and Skipton, although awareness is increasing as guesstimates on the costs to support a regular railway service climb. You mention the Waterside line, which has infrastructure in place. Demonstration runs with a super sprinter are clearly many steps ahead of what is possible between Skipton and Colne, which helps the business case for the Waterside route. It’s not to say that the Waterside route will be delivered. It also has some difficulties that could massively swing the business case.

 

[zwk500]

Good morning everyone! Is there any news on the re-opening of the Colne to Skipton line? It seems to have gone quiet recently. Down here in the south we‘re awaiting news of the re-opening of the Marchwood to Fawley section of the Warerside line. From Tottenham to Marchwood the railway is busy with traffic to the Militsry Port on Southampton Water.

Colne to Skipton is very unlikely to go anywhere.

Totton to Marchwood and Fawley is making good progress, but still has a number of question marks over it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In past postings on the closed thread, did someone mention freight trains carrying wood-based products to power stations?

 

[scrapy]

In past postings on the closed thread, did someone mention freight trains carrying wood-based products to power stations?

I'd seen an article on TV (may have been North West Tonight or Granada reports) saying that if Colne to Skipton was reopened, the business case would be primarily for freight traffic with through passenger services being a bonus.

If this is the case then where are the freight trains generally going from and to? and would a South curve at Hellifield not have a better business case, possibly allowing services from Manchester to Clitheroe to continue to Skipton, or a Preston to Leeds via Skipton

 

[zwk500]

In past postings on the closed thread, did someone mention freight trains carrying wood-based products to power stations?

From where to where that isn't already covered by the Calder Valley?

 

[30907]

From where to where that isn't already covered by the Calder Valley

Liverpool Docks and Yorkshire power stations.The issue wasn't so much the Calder Valley as getting through Manchester Vic and up Miles Platting bank.

If this is the case then where are the freight trains generally going from and to? and would a South curve at Hellifield not have a better business case, possibly allowing services from Manchester to Clitheroe to continue to Skipton, or a Preston to Leeds via Skipton

The problem then being that you have to use the WCML through Wigan, part of which is only double track.

 

[zwk500]

I'd seen an article on TV (may have been North West Tonight or Granada reports) saying that if Colne to Skipton was reopened, the business case would be primarily for freight traffic with through passenger services being a bonus.

If this is the case then where are the freight trains generally going from and to? and would a South curve at Hellifield not have a better business case, possibly allowing services from Manchester to Clitheroe to continue to Skipton.

Here's a list of freight tomorrow at Skipton: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...7-27/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=freight&order=wtt

As you can see, a lot of traffic is to/from the Settle & Carlisle, which can already access Blackburn via Clitheroe. Much of the rest is Carlisle/SW Scotland to Doncaster/East Coast Ports, which Skipton-Colne doesn't help now. Traffic from East of Leeds is already better off running via the quieter Calder Valley route, so the only traffic the Skipton-Colne route can improve is Stone from Skipton itself to the WCML. It's just not enough of a market to justify additional route mileage.

If there is genuine passenger demand for trains between Blackburn and Skipton, resignalling Hellifield for reversals would seem to give better value for money overall. The new line will cost more than the resignalling, and a chord at Hellifield would require resignalling anyway.

Liverpool Docks and Yorkshire power stations.The issue wasn't so much the Calder Valley as getting through Manchester Vic and up Miles Platting bank.
The problem then being that you have to use the WCML through Wigan, part of which is only double track.

If Man Vic and Miles Platting was such an issue wouldn't they already run via Lostock Hall, Blackburn and Copy Pit? Trains using Clitheroe, Skipton or Copy Pit would still need to use the 2-track parts of the WCML regardless of what they did after Blackburn. And 4-tracking the Winsford-Balshaw lane Jn section (or parts of it) of the WCML would have a far greater national benefit than Skipton-Colne.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What's the lifetime of biomass burning at Drax?
I know it's now a fully-biomass station, with medium-term shipping contracts with US/Canadian suppliers, but will it survive the "green rush"?
New rail infrastructure needs to have a sustainable business case for at least a generation.
Liverpool is only one of the ports for deliveries to Drax.
You surely wouldn't base a major route reopening on a 10-year fuel contract with Drax (a contract which will be well on the way to expiry before any conceivable Skipton-Colne reopening).

I can see the merit of avoiding the middle section of the Calder Valley route, but the Aire Valley is very busy at the Leeds end, and the flat junctions at Whitehall aren't friendly to long weaving moves on a Skipton-Woodlesford axis.
It's probably better to stick to the Calder Valley route.
The WCML would also be crossed on the flat at Springs Branch and at Leyland.

 

[jfisher21]

I do think Colne - Skipton is too similar a route to Copy Pit to be honest.

 

[zwk500]

What's the lifetime of biomass burning at Drax?
I know it's now a fully-biomass station, with medium-term shipping contracts with US/Canadian suppliers, but will it survive the "green rush"?
New rail infrastructure needs to have a sustainable business case for at least a generation.
Liverpool is only one of the ports for deliveries to Drax.

Why on earth would you want to send a Biomass train across Whitehall Junction? Also, 1 freight flow is not anywhere near enough to justify a business case for a brand new line.

 

[Harpers Tate]

....will it survive the "green rush"?

Biomass is considered "green" because the CO2 released from burning was recently (as opposed to prehistorically) captured by the same plants from which the material is made. Thus it's considered CO2 "neutral".

 

[SuspectUsual]

If Man Vic and Miles Platting was such an issue wouldn't they already run via Lostock Hall, Blackburn and Copy Pit?

I’m pretty sure the loaded (ie eastbound) biomass trains are banned from Miles Platting, and looking at RTT I can see this afternoon’s is routed via Alty / Stockport / Ashton Moss and onto the Calder valley at Brewery Junction

 

[coppercapped]

Biomass is considered "green" because the CO2 released from burning was recently (as opposed to prehistorically) captured by the same plants from which the material is made. Thus it's considered CO2 "neutral".

But it isn't 'green' is it? Drax burns wood faster than the trees grow...unless the plantation is HUGE.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I’m pretty sure the loaded (ie eastbound) biomass trains are banned from Miles Platting, and looking at RTT I can see this afternoon’s is routed via Alty / Stockport / Ashton Moss and onto the Calder valley at Brewery Junction

RTT shows this route (via Earlestown and Northwich) is 146 miles.
The direct road route via M62 is 99 miles, via Skipton (M65) is 126 miles, via Copy Pit 113 miles..
By rail via Man Vic and the Calder Valley is 103 miles.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Just to add a bit of information regarding (alleged) proposed freight between Colne and Skipton.

Drax and Peel Ports want biomass trains between Liverpool Docks and Drax to be sped up, ideally so each set of wagons can do 2 daily return trips. The people behind the Colne - Skipton reopening have said if they ran that way the speeding up would be achieved. Drax and Peel Ports have taken this at face value and (sort of) backed the reopening.

However, any cursory glance at the WTT from when coal ran on the S&C from Scotland to the West Yorkshire power stations shows it simply isn't the case and the biomass trains would barely be quicker than they are now. Unfortunately for SELRAP the government isn't going to spend £100s millions just based on what they claim.

 

[dave59]

My MP (Skipton & Ripon) intimated the other day that it was far from certain and a long way from construction if it ever happens. Electrification extension of 16 miles to Settle with associated works should be considered in my view. Lots of housebuilding in this railway corridor and a hopelessly inadequate road (A65) which continues to be unimproved decade after decade.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the eastern leg of HS2 looks to be threatened by Treasury attempts seeking cuts in finance for many parts of the industrial sector, what hope does this afford for the financing requirements required by the subject of this thread?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Ther is something like £500m in a "fund" for projects like this - so maybe about 35 miles of "new track" , in a world where simple new stations cost anything from £10m upwards ,this money is going to have to be thinly spread where quicker results come to the fore (as well as hard business cases , not based on "maybe" improving some existing freight flows which franky may not be long lasting and of indirect , tangible impact on the greater economy and dare I say it passengers.

In the real world - we are going to see (seeing even) , cutbacks on present services in highly populated areas , so a pipe dream of seeing similar lines like this rebuilt from dereliction are in my view very unlikely. Any re-opening on existing infrastructure , has a much better chance - vide Ashington , Hythe and few other candidates.

 

[SuspectUsual]

this money is going to have to be thinly spread where quicker results come to the fore

I wouldn’t put it past them to aim as much of it as they can at constituencies with Tory MPs. They have form, witness Robert Jenrick’s escapades

 

[Bald Rick]

Ther is something like £500m in a "fund" for projects like this

And much of that already committed, on Okehampton, early works for the Northumberland line (with a lot more earmarked, but not yet committed, to finish it), and a fair bit more approved for detailed feasibility / early design on a handful of other schemes.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

And much of that already committed, on Okehampton, early works for the Northumberland line (with a lot more earmarked, but not yet committed, to finish it), and a fair bit more approved for detailed feasibility / early design on a handful of other schemes.

I guess so - our German friends have a similar scheme (though a bit different as DB Netz do infastructure and the "Lander" sponser passenger services - I think they had 80+ "good ideas" (from a bucket of other suggestions) and they have whittled it down to 20 or so for real consideration.

The Germans have a tight marking process for selection , - a bit like the (discredited) franchise system , so there is considerable process control , as opposed to - how shall I say - "fanciful options" . We shall see.

 

[tbtc]

Lines that closed always sound much more interesting than lines that survived. Lines that survived are hamstrung by being quantifiable, having disappointing passenger numbers, being real. Closed lines though, they allow flights of fancy, they can be used to justify imaginary freight services... an artist's impression of a half hourly EMU looks a lot nicer than the underwhelming route that struggles on with tiny numbers of passengers. Compare and contrast...

Lines that survived cuts:

• Settle & Carlisle: A Sprinter every couple of hours (none of the stations north of Settle have passenger numbers worth writing home about)
• Little North Western/ Bentham: Recently upgraded to a Sprinter every couple of hours (the best service I think it's had? intermediate stations have very low passenger numbers)
• Colne - Burnley: A 150 every hour (with average passenger numbers that a minibus could accommodate - no suggestion of through trains from Colne to Manchester given the single track line south of Blackburn)
• Leeds/ Bradford - Burnley/ Blackburn: An hourly Sprinter

Line that didn't survive cuts:

• Skipton - Colne: Apparently a minimum of a half hourly passenger service (possibly from Leeds all the way to Manchester Airport, according to the SELRAP website!) plus hourly freight services of up to 775m long...

Now, I'm not saying that the SELRAP website is put together by hobbyists with lots of crayons and no realistic idea of business cases, but you have to wonder if they're being entirely honest, e.g. the website suggests that the line would have "a transformational effect on the transport connectivity for the population of approximately 200,000 who currently live in East Lancashire" ... "200,000 people living in East Lancashire will be connected into Leeds and Bradford" ... which suggests they either aren't aware of the existing hourly service from Leeds/ Bradford to Burnley/ Blackburn, or they are hoping that the kind of well meaning people who'll donate to a website won't be aware of the fact that it's a little disingenuous to suggest that nearly a quarter of a million people are lacking a train to Leeds

I'd recommend their website - https://www.selrap.org.uk/Publications/20180905_prospectus_web_version.pdf - they've managed to tick a lot of boxes (bringing in HS2, the fact that Rishi Sunak is MP for a North Yorkshire constituency) - but it's short on a lot of details - for example...

• "this new missing link will open up a direct route to Manchester International Airport from towns in both Lancashire and Yorkshire" - through trains to Manchester Airport?
• "At the present time, there is no East to West rail route cleared for W12 gauge running across the Pennines. Therefore to travel between Liverpool and Hull, a distance of approximately 130 miles, a detour of over 100 miles is required, via Lichfield in Staffordshire (or a detour via Scotland!)" << so what Hull - Liverpool freight would there be (assuming that they got clearance for the rest of the route)?
• The website suggests the idea that the line is electrified from Skipton to Burnley but... then what? Why wire the line as far as Burnley and stop there? (i.e. do it all the way to Preston/ Bolton or don't bother)
• Why not just extend the services that currently terminate at Halifax through to Blackburn to provide a half hourly service from Leeds/ Bradford to Burnley/ Blackburn? Because finding an additional Sprinter is hard but finding hundreds of millions of pounds for a new line is easy?
• Why so many mentions of the economic benefits of a direct train to Leeds rather than Manchester? Wouldn't a direct train from Colne to Manchester be much easier than spending hundreds of millions of pounds on a new line? e.g. bi-hourly Clitheroe to Manchester and bi-hourly Colne to Manchester?
• Is the plan to extend existing Leeds - Skipton services to Lancashire (services which are already busy enough with existing Yorkshire passengers), or to run additional services (in which case we'd need a lot of paths in the Aire Valley)?
• • Standard day return fares from Burnley to Leeds will be about £12.00 << the current fare is £16.00, so why would it be cheaper to go via Skipton?
  
  
  
  
  ...it's the usual "Solution In Need Of A Problem", a long list of potentially contradictory benefits (e.g. the bit I've quoted suggests that 200,000 people in East Lancashire would be connected into Bradford, but there's already direct trains from Blackburn/ Burnley etc to Bradford Interchange - there's also no suggestion of direct SELRAP services into Forster Square... so are they just suggesting that a stop at Keighley/ Shipley will be "Bradford"? Even RyanAir would think twice about that kind of disingenuous labelling of somewhere far from the name it pretends to be!
  
  
  
  

But it's rural, it's fairly scenic, it's always going to appeal to the nostalgic people who are a sucker for these kind of "reinstatement" projects, we'll have debates about it every few months or so, because there'll always be some Flavour of The Month justification to hang the case on (e.g. it was going to be an express passenger route from Hull to Liverpool at one stage, but this seems to have been dropped)

 

[Bald Rick]

I guess so - our German friends have a similar scheme (though a bit different as DB Netz do infastructure and the "Lander" sponser passenger services - I think they had 80+ "good ideas" (from a bucket of other suggestions) and they have whittled it down to 20 or so for real consideration.

The Germans have a tight marking process for selection , - a bit like the (discredited) franchise system , so there is considerable process control , as opposed to - how shall I say - "fanciful options" . We shall see.

Sounds exactly like the process here. About 200 proposals for new lines / services / stations (albeit some ‘repeats’) received over the three rounds. 25 awarded ‘seedcorn’ funding in the first two rounds to develop their idea further, with the third and final round to be announced. When they have developed their proposals further with that cash, they will then go back to the DfT for further consideration and detailed assessment of the work. Many will, I’m sure, not make the grade - some have been discussed on these pages. Of the 200 proposed I’d be surprised if more than 10% get past initial development. Even then, were they all to be delivered it would likely far exceed the available funding.

 

[Gloster]

One could say that most of these impractical proposals keep a few people harmlessly occupied, but unfortunately they deflect attention away from the few genuinely realistic projects. They also give ammunition to opponents of well thought-out proposals (“Another daft idea, just like that one for...”), and spread the practical or financial too thin.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Pardon me for commenting - but your post is , as ever a good one.

Way back , I was shocked to find there was no Sunday service from Manchester to the likes of Clithero and Colne , - there was the Rail Partnership Fund in SRA days - so a quiet word (not in licensed premises) was had with various planners in what was then FNW.

So am economic timetable and bid was drawn up for hourly Manchester to Blackburn with 2 hourly services to Colne and Clithero , with the usual remit of "report back" and see how it does.

Surprising- or maybe not -the Colne service was moribund (and we sent people out to check on it incognito) , whilst the Clithero service thrived , was made hourly - and was eventually wrapped up into the service specification downline. Once a year or so - pre Covid -I used to run out and enjoy a ride on some of "my" sponsered services and enjoy the successes - particularly Cambridge to Norwich. The Vale of Glamorgan and Ebbw Vale.

So Colne does not really want to go "much" to Manchester - on a Sunday - but has a historical service to Blackpool - so would therefore a daily , let alone Sunday service to Leeds make a difference ? The locals would probably say it should have been hourly to Manchester - plus Leeds.

Forget biomass diversions at freight track access rates for expensive infrastructure (and I have spent enough time on both operating and being commercially managing freight flows) - there has to be a case for long standing - dare I say it - "passenger" railway. With or without operating subsidy.

 

[Bald Rick]

A good point from @ChiefPlanner, which leads to another point. If, as seems likely*, there isn’t a case for operating any sort of regular service between Clitheroe and Hellifield / Settle when the infrastructure is already there, then it seems difficult to see how there would be a case for spending a few hundred million quid building this line.

And if freight is such a beneficiary, then a south to east curve at Hellifield would be a far cheaper solution to get almost the same benefit.


*on the basis that if there was a good case for it, it would have happened by now.

 

[tbtc]

So Colne does not really want to go "much" to Manchester - on a Sunday - but has a historical service to Blackpool - so would therefore a daily , let alone Sunday service to Leeds make a difference ? The locals would probably say it should have been hourly to Manchester - plus Leeds

Very interesting - thanks for giving some background, especially into the fact that improvements have been tried in the past

At the moment we have the Colne branch which is tied to Blackpool South for reasons of operational convenience rather than any major demand - the passenger numbers north/east of Burnley are pretty low - there's a frequent bus service in the valley but the railway line is built on the "wrong" side for a lot of housing

Normally, I'd suggest that a route with a frequent commercial bus service is ripe for a potential rail line (and I guess that, if the whole line from Burnley to Skipton had been closed, I may have said the same here), but the current railway line just isn't competing with the buses/ cars/ motorway

We could throw a lot of money at the existing route, stick in a loop to permit a half hourly service, electrify it to give a faster journey time etc, but I think that you'd have a long long list of lines that gave better bang for the buck (and, if "linking the hundreds of thousands of people in East Lancashire with the economic powerhouses of Bradford and Leeds" is the objective then an extra Sprinter or two to extend the Halifax terminators over the Pennines would achieve most of the benefits for a fraction of the costs)

A good point from @ChiefPlanner, which leads to another point. If, as seems likely*, there isn’t a case for operating any sort of regular service between Clitheroe and Hellifield / Settle when the infrastructure is already there, then it seems difficult to see how there would be a case for spending a few hundred million quid building this line.

One thing that I enjoy about these kind of discussions is that they often go a little like this:

1. "Let's spend hundreds of millions of pounds on liking Blackburn with Skipton"
2. "Well, we could simply do that by reversing trains at Hellifield"
1. "but that would mean installing an additional signal at the existing station, which is clearly beyond the realms of fantasy"

(i.e. you can suggest majorly expensive things, but if someone comes up with a modest idea that delivers a chunk of the benefits then they are dismissed as a fantasist)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Modest ideas are great - particularly when they avoid masses of consultants reports and "studies" - like re-opening the Vale of Glamorgan line which cost peanuts for a couple of signals and some well positioned stations slap bang in the middle of communities , (Lantwit Major / Rhoose) plus a couple of units squeezed out of the ATW fleet as it was then. (and put into the base timetable service requirements)

I could go on about money spent on coal flows back in the days when it was important and keeping the lights on was crucial - whilst the Settle and Carlisle spend was critical at the time - opening boxes 24 hours , relaying a knackered railway (some of which had to be done twice alas) , some IBS signals and so on - money well spent. Not much used now though.

Spend on other grander schemes for coal movements , not so - the G&SW perhaps and other schemes.

Money spent on W12 from Soton and Ipswich - total and utter tick in the box , more on cross Fen works - critical in my view - and the Joint line via PBO and Doncaster important for GB and international / global trades.

Making a case for a link via Skipton / Colne for biomass is not there in my view.

 

[A0]

Lines that closed always sound much more interesting than lines that survived. Lines that survived are hamstrung by being quantifiable, having disappointing passenger numbers, being real. Closed lines though, they allow flights of fancy, they can be used to justify imaginary freight services... an artist's impression of a half hourly EMU looks a lot nicer than the underwhelming route that struggles on with tiny numbers of passengers. Compare and contrast...

Lines that survived cuts:

• Settle & Carlisle: A Sprinter every couple of hours (none of the stations north of Settle have passenger numbers worth writing home about)
• Little North Western/ Bentham: Recently upgraded to a Sprinter every couple of hours (the best service I think it's had? intermediate stations have very low passenger numbers)
• Colne - Burnley: A 150 every hour (with average passenger numbers that a minibus could accommodate - no suggestion of through trains from Colne to Manchester given the single track line south of Blackburn)
• Leeds/ Bradford - Burnley/ Blackburn: An hourly Sprinter

Line that didn't survive cuts:

• Skipton - Colne: Apparently a minimum of a half hourly passenger service (possibly from Leeds all the way to Manchester Airport, according to the SELRAP website!) plus hourly freight services of up to 775m long...

Now, I'm not saying that the SELRAP website is put together by hobbyists with lots of crayons and no realistic idea of business cases, but you have to wonder if they're being entirely honest, e.g. the website suggests that the line would have "a transformational effect on the transport connectivity for the population of approximately 200,000 who currently live in East Lancashire" ... "200,000 people living in East Lancashire will be connected into Leeds and Bradford" ... which suggests they either aren't aware of the existing hourly service from Leeds/ Bradford to Burnley/ Blackburn, or they are hoping that the kind of well meaning people who'll donate to a website won't be aware of the fact that it's a little disingenuous to suggest that nearly a quarter of a million people are lacking a train to Leeds

I'd recommend their website - https://www.selrap.org.uk/Publications/20180905_prospectus_web_version.pdf - they've managed to tick a lot of boxes (bringing in HS2, the fact that Rishi Sunak is MP for a North Yorkshire constituency) - but it's short on a lot of details - for example...

• "this new missing link will open up a direct route to Manchester International Airport from towns in both Lancashire and Yorkshire" - through trains to Manchester Airport?
• "At the present time, there is no East to West rail route cleared for W12 gauge running across the Pennines. Therefore to travel between Liverpool and Hull, a distance of approximately 130 miles, a detour of over 100 miles is required, via Lichfield in Staffordshire (or a detour via Scotland!)" << so what Hull - Liverpool freight would there be (assuming that they got clearance for the rest of the route)?
• The website suggests the idea that the line is electrified from Skipton to Burnley but... then what? Why wire the line as far as Burnley and stop there? (i.e. do it all the way to Preston/ Bolton or don't bother)
• Why not just extend the services that currently terminate at Halifax through to Blackburn to provide a half hourly service from Leeds/ Bradford to Burnley/ Blackburn? Because finding an additional Sprinter is hard but finding hundreds of millions of pounds for a new line is easy?
• Why so many mentions of the economic benefits of a direct train to Leeds rather than Manchester? Wouldn't a direct train from Colne to Manchester be much easier than spending hundreds of millions of pounds on a new line? e.g. bi-hourly Clitheroe to Manchester and bi-hourly Colne to Manchester?
• Is the plan to extend existing Leeds - Skipton services to Lancashire (services which are already busy enough with existing Yorkshire passengers), or to run additional services (in which case we'd need a lot of paths in the Aire Valley)?
• • Standard day return fares from Burnley to Leeds will be about £12.00 << the current fare is £16.00, so why would it be cheaper to go via Skipton?
  
  
  
  
  ...it's the usual "Solution In Need Of A Problem", a long list of potentially contradictory benefits (e.g. the bit I've quoted suggests that 200,000 people in East Lancashire would be connected into Bradford, but there's already direct trains from Blackburn/ Burnley etc to Bradford Interchange - there's also no suggestion of direct SELRAP services into Forster Square... so are they just suggesting that a stop at Keighley/ Shipley will be "Bradford"? Even RyanAir would think twice about that kind of disingenuous labelling of somewhere far from the name it pretends to be!
  
  
  
  

But it's rural, it's fairly scenic, it's always going to appeal to the nostalgic people who are a sucker for these kind of "reinstatement" projects, we'll have debates about it every few months or so, because there'll always be some Flavour of The Month justification to hang the case on (e.g. it was going to be an express passenger route from Hull to Liverpool at one stage, but this seems to have been dropped)

Said it before and will say it again - this forum *so* needs a 'like' button.....