SWR Class 458 to be retained

[WarrenTManager]

Are the 458's having some sort of renaissance on the Reading line? I've only just started travelling back on this line again but each 458 I've been on has been clean and I've seen no examples of fogged up or "swimming pool" windows.

We were waiting for more glass to be available, we had a massive shortage with long lead times plus three units had multiple windows smashed by vandals just to exacerbate the issue.

 

[antharro]

As an occasional traveller on the 458s, when these units are converted to long-distance running, I sometimes think that these become 'the Pacers of the South' because the ones I travel on give a squeaky and bouncy ride.

This has been an issue for years. I remember complaining to SWT about this back in the day. Seriously LOUD suspension squeaks, plus you could hear (and feel) the suspension bottoming out on rough bits of track. Did not make for a good ride, and almost had a headache by the time I got to Reading... I recently found a video of this I took on my phone at the time...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As an occasional traveller on the 458s, when these units are converted to long-distance running, I sometimes think that these become 'the Pacers of the South' because the ones I travel on give a squeaky and bouncy ride.

I rode them semi-regularly between Twickenham/Richmond and Staines for a year. At the time they worked alongside slammers so being a nerd I went for the Slammer if possible, knowing they weren't long for this world. Usually though, it was a 458 and to be honest they were fine. I thought they were pretty smooth compared to the slammers and 455s that shared the route.

 

[WarrenTManager]

Like any aircon system it needs to be maintained. My experience - in terms of usage, similar to yours - is that when working it was very good. The blast of cold air on a hot day after walking over to Waterloo was always welcome. I wonder if the issue was Wimbledon and the lack of experience on aircon? Interesting to see how Bournemouth get on with them...

Soprano, the company that made the HVACs went bust and it was a struggle to get a replacement repairer for the modules and particularly the PLCs for a while.

 

[D365]

Soprano, the company that made the HVACs went bust and it was a struggle to get a replacement repairer for the modules and particularly the PLCs for a while.

Obsolescence management is a thankless task!

 

[Goldfish62]

I rode them semi-regularly between Twickenham/Richmond and Staines for a year. At the time they worked alongside slammers so being a nerd I went for the Slammer if possible, knowing they weren't long for this world. Usually though, it was a 458 and to be honest they were fine. I thought they were pretty smooth compared to the slammers and 455s that shared the route.

Well yes, that would have been when they were still quite new and relatively unknackered. A positive comparison with the ride quality of slammers and 455s isn't a difficult one to make!

I compare them with similar trains made at around the same time, in this case the Class 357. IMHO there's no comparison. The 357 wins on smoothness, quietness and general ambience.

 

[444045]

Yesterday U.458520 / 458027 were moved on 5B39 0800 Wimbledon Park Depot to Bournemouth Depot.
Not sure whether its planned maintenance or staff training in advance of 458's cascade to Bournemouth Depot.

 

[Bessie]

Have any 458’s gone off for refurbishment as I’m seeing more Class 450’s on Reading line services?

 

[43096]

Have any 458’s gone off for refurbishment as I’m seeing more Class 450’s on Reading line services?

None have been reported going. The use of more 450s on the Reading seems to be down to the new, improved timetable with less trains and more shorter trains. Interestingly, the Saturday timetable is pretty much 100% Juniper.

 

[Domh245]

Have any 458’s gone off for refurbishment as I’m seeing more Class 450’s on Reading line services?

I don't think any would have gone off yet. I suspect the 450s on Readings is because 458s are backfilling for the 707s that have gone to southeastern already

 

[Goldfish62]

I don't think any would have gone off yet. I suspect the 450s on Readings is because 458s are backfilling for the 707s that have gone to southeastern already

The number of units for Reading has been cut by around 50% as compared to the Dec 2019 timetable and all remaining peak extras being withdrawn from the May timetable. It now requires 14 units daily (was 28 M-F). On weekdays this is four pairs of 458s and three pairs of 450s. On Saturdays it's a full house of seven pairs of 458s, with Sundays usually having a single pair of 450s which are then stabled at Reading to form the 0612 from Reading on Monday.

Given that only 28 458s are being converted that actually leaves eight units that could presumably be retained as long as is required.

It may also of course be the case that the detail of the project is still being scoped and materials ordered and being supplied. There's often quite a lag between announcements and projects making visible progress.

 

[swt_passenger]

In the light of the 2022 timetable consultation announced today, with its reduced Portsmouth direct service pattern, is it possible that this conversion programme will be cancelled?

Cross reference to the consultation thread with links to the SWR site:

SWR December 2022 Timetable Consultation

South Western Railway (SWR) have published a December 2022 timetable consultation document on their website. https://www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/timetables/timetable-consultation-december-2022 In partnership with Network Rail and the Department for Transport, we have launched...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Journeyman]

In the light of the 2022 timetable consultation announced today, with its reduced Portsmouth direct service pattern, is it possible that this conversion programme will be cancelled?

It wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

[DennisM]

In the light of the 2022 timetable consultation announced today, with its reduced Portsmouth direct service pattern, is it possible that this conversion programme will be cancelled?

They’ll probably want to wait until the 458’s are fully refurbished and ready to re enter service before making a decision like that

 

[swt_passenger]

They’ll probably want to wait until the 458’s are fully refurbished and ready to re enter service before making a decision like that

You might not be too far from the truth there…

 

[43096]

In the light of the 2022 timetable consultation announced today, with its reduced Portsmouth direct service pattern, is it possible that this conversion programme will be cancelled?

It wouldn't surprise me at all.

I disagree. The 458s are planned for the Portsmouth fasts, which remain at 2tph post the 2022 changes. If I was SWR, I’d be looking at killing some of the 701 order (on the grounds of contractual non-performance by Derby) with 450s freed up by the reductions on the Pompey line and elsewhere being used on Reading services in place of the wholly unsuitable 701s.

 

[DanNCL]

I disagree. The 458s are planned for the Portsmouth fasts, which remain at 2tph post the 2022 changes. If I was SWR, I’d be looking at killing some of the 701 order (on the grounds of contractual non-performance by Derby) with 450s freed up by the reductions on the Pompey line and elsewhere being used on Reading services in place of the wholly unsuitable 701s.

Won’t the 450s be needed for the new London - Southampton and Southampton - Bournemouth stoppers? If anything is freed up from the EMU fleet by these changes it seems more likely to be 444s.

 

[DorkingMain]

The problem is the 458s being released for refurbishment is contingent on enough 701s being in service to release all the 707s, and then the 458s.

The DfT are pushing the 701s come hell or high water, so I very much can't see that plan changing.

I agree if anything gets cut due to service reductions it will be the 458 plan. They're not in a good state, and I feel SWR might be rather underestimating the work needed to get them into a good condition. Whether they realise that before the work or...in the 442 fashion

 

[swt_passenger]

Won’t the 450s be needed for the new London - Southampton and Southampton - Bournemouth stoppers? If anything is freed up from the EMU fleet by these changes it seems more likely to be 444s.

Not at all, because they are not really new services, but are formed out of the existing Waterloo to Poole stopper - it gets split either side of Southampton into two separate services. Seems to be clearly explained in the consultation:

”To improve the efficiency of our service, the London Waterloo to Poole stopping service will be split into a London Waterloo to Southampton Central semi-fast service and a Southampton Central to Bournemouth stopping service. This allows the removal of complex and slow overtaking moves at Brockenhurst and allows us to better match our capacity to demand. ”

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I disagree. The 458s are planned for the Portsmouth fasts, which remain at 2tph post the 2022 changes. If I was SWR, I’d be looking at killing some of the 701 order (on the grounds of contractual non-performance by Derby) with 450s freed up by the reductions on the Pompey line and elsewhere being used on Reading services in place of the wholly unsuitable 701s.

No, because the Reading line is moving to DCO operation as per agreement with RMT so suitable rolling stock with body side cameras is needed.

 

[JonathanH]

If anything is freed up from the EMU fleet by these changes it seems more likely to be 444s.

Parking up 444s could make some sense, particularly if the lease costs are greater than for the 450 fleet (and other fleets), in the same way the 442s were removed from service the first time.

 

[swt_passenger]

Parking up 444s could make some sense, particularly if the lease costs are greater than for the 450 fleet (and other fleets), in the same way the 442s were removed from service the first time.

I’d be surprised if a single 444 leasing cost is 50% higher than a single 450, as they were all part of the same order. And you‘d need 3 x 450 to replace 2 x 444 on a service?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Parking up 444s could make some sense, particularly if the lease costs are greater than for the 450 fleet (and other fleets), in the same way the 442s were removed from service the first time.

The 444s and 450s have a section 54 on them until April 2025 so can’t go off lease early.

Written questions and answers - Written questions, answers and statements - UK Parliament

Information from UK Parliament on written questions & answers, written statements and daily reports.

questions-statements.parliament.uk

 

[DorkingMain]

No, because the Reading line is moving to DCO operation as per agreement with RMT so suitable rolling stock with body side cameras is needed.

I'm not aware of an element of the agreement with the RMT that says particular routes must go DCO as soon as possible?

My understanding was that it specifically suggests guards will retain dispatch competency on legacy stock and over routes using legacy stock for as long as is necessary. I don't remember any reference to specific routes in that.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I'm not aware of an element of the agreement with the RMT that says particular routes must go DCO as soon as possible?

My understanding was that it specifically suggests guards will retain dispatch competency on legacy stock and over routes using legacy stock for as long as is necessary. I don't remember any reference to specific routes in that.

Yes but the same document says I’m the intention is all metro routes are operated by ‘metro guards’ having one pocket on guarded operation on the Windsor lines doesn’t seem sensible.

 

[DanNCL]

Not at all, because they are not really new services, but are formed out of the existing Waterloo to Poole stopper - it gets split either side of Southampton into two separate services. Seems to be clearly explained in the consultation:

”To improve the efficiency of our service, the London Waterloo to Poole stopping service will be split into a London Waterloo to Southampton Central semi-fast service and a Southampton Central to Bournemouth stopping service. This allows the removal of complex and slow overtaking moves at Brockenhurst and allows us to better match our capacity to demand. ”

Indeed, but at present that’s a mix of 444s and 450s. I really can’t see 444s being allocated to the newly split services, so it will almost certainly see 444s freed up. 458s going on the Portsmouth fasts will free up more of them. Presumably that would allow all Weymouth services to be 10 car at least as far as Bournemouth.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Indeed, but at present that’s a mix of 444s and 450s. I really can’t see 444s being allocated to the newly split services, so it will almost certainly see 444s freed up. 458s going on the Portsmouth fasts will free up more of them. Presumably that would allow all Weymouth services to be 10 car at least as far as Bournemouth.

Pretty much all the Weymouth fasts are 10 cars already between London and Bournemouth and have been since Dec 2018

 

[DanNCL]

Pretty much all the Weymouth fasts are 10 cars already between London and Bournemouth and have been since Dec 2018

They were mostly 5 cars when I used them in May 2019.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I disagree. The 458s are planned for the Portsmouth fasts, which remain at 2tph post the 2022 changes. If I was SWR, I’d be looking at killing some of the 701 order (on the grounds of contractual non-performance by Derby) with 450s freed up by the reductions on the Pompey line and elsewhere being used on Reading services in place of the wholly unsuitable 701s.

Perhaps wait to travel on them before deeming them unsuitable?

 

[43096]

Yes but the same document says I’m the intention is all metro routes are operated by ‘metro guards’ having one pocket on guarded operation on the Windsor lines doesn’t seem sensible.

Can we get over this idea that Reading is a metro route - or rather it shouldn’t be. It has more in common with the Alton and Basingstoke lines and should have similar stock. Inner suburban stock is frankly unacceptable on this route.