Fast train to Weymouth?

[Bob M]

The MP for Weymouth is very keen to get faster trains, to London of course. He seems to fancy using the Heart of Wessex line, messing about at Yeovil, then going to Waterloo via Salisbury. It seems to me a better option might be H of W to Castle Cary, then fast-ish to Paddington, although it might be sensible to stop at Westbury for connections.

Could any of you experts tell me how fast an 800 might be able to do this?

 

[Nunners]

The MP for Weymouth is very keen to get faster trains, to London of course. He seems to fancy using the Heart of Wessex line, messing about at Yeovil, then going to Waterloo via Salisbury. It seems to me a better option might be H of W to Castle Cary, then fast-ish to Paddington, although it might be sensible to stop at Westbury for connections.

Could any of you experts tell me how fast an 800 might be able to do this?

On the current timetable, a journey to Paddington takes about 2h50 if you ignore the change time. So the best to expect an IET to be able to do it with a reasonable stopping pattern is probably 2h30-2h40

 

[swt_passenger]

This was discussed back in May within this thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/swr-not-serving-local-travel-needs-and-lack-integrated-ticket-options-bournemouth-area.217663/#post-5144971

I don’t think many forum members thought it was at all realistic, I doubt anything has changed…

 

[zwk500]

At the moment the HoW takes 1h03 from Weymouth to Castle Cary. Take off 2 mins for the Upwey Stop, then about 5/6 minutes for Chetnole, Yeominster and Thornford. All trains must stop at Maiden Newton and Yeovil PM for token exchange and you will be stopping at Dorchester South because it'd be madness not to, you're looking at 55 minutes to Castle Cary. An 800 won't be doing much better than anything else on the HoW because the linespeed's fairly low anyway.

Castle Cary to Paddington on a train stopping Westbury, Pewsey, Newbury and Reading is 1h30. So total time for Weymouth to Pad with stops at Dorchester West, Maiden Newton, Yeovil Pen Mill, Castle Cary, Westbury, Pewsey, Newbury and Reading is 2h25, maybe a little less as 800s are better accelerating than 158s.

The far bigger issue is finding a path between Paddington and Reading on the Main Lines.

Train sources: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G82810/2021-07-28/detailed, https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G60366/2021-07-28/detailed

 

[Failed Unit]

Surely the best way to do this is Waterloo and non stop to Southampton and the only the larger stations en-route to Weymouth, like BR used to do (although I know fast services are a problem with capacity).

I am sure a Waterloo - Weymouth via Salisbury service used to run on Summer Saturdays, it wasn't fast. But someone can correct me on the last point.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely the best way to do this is Waterloo and non stop to Southampton and the only the larger stations en-route to Weymouth, like BR used to do (although I know fast services are a problem with capacity).

I am sure a Waterloo - Weymouth via Salisbury service used to run on Summer Saturdays, it wasn't fast. But someone can correct me on the last point.

Waterloo to Southampton non stop is no longer acceptable. The demand for fast trains from Winchester, Basingstoke, Parkway etc is too great to ignore.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Waterloo to Southampton non stop is no longer acceptable. The demand for fast trains from Winchester, Basingstoke, Parkway etc is too great to ignore.

Indeed this was consulted on for Dec 2018 and that was just non-stop to Winchester and threw up enough complaints from people wanting the connectivity availed by Basingstoke, Woking and Clapham calls - you only have to look at discussion on the Dec 2022 consultation over Clapham calls to see how pertinent this is.

 

[PTR 444]

Having been through a whole thread on the SWML two months ago, I think the best way to make journey times faster is to reduce the Waterloo - Weymouth frequency to hourly, but split at Southampton so you have a fast portion running limited stop to Weymouth, and a slow portion calling at all stations. These would be timed so that the latter arrives in Weymouth approximately half an hour after the former. Under this plan, the other Waterloo - Weymouth would be cut back to Poole.

Fast portion (5-car 444)
Clapham Junction, Basingstoke, Winchester, Southampton Airport, Southampton Central, Bournemouth, Poole, Hamworthy, Wareham, Wool, Dorchester South, WEYMOUTH
Slow portion (5-car 444)
As above to SOU, then Totton, Brockenhurst, New Milton, Christchurch and all stations to Weymouth. Much better than the 2017 consultation proposal as this retains through trains between Waterloo and all stations west of Poole.

Running IETs from Paddington to Weymouth is also not a bad idea and could be done by extending the 1tp2h Newbury terminator, but this would require an extensive upgrade to the HofW line to enable it to run alongside the existing Bristol service. I think in the short term, it is much easier to use the SWML for faster journeys with more portion working. Not sure if Waterloo - Weymouth really warrants more than 1tph off-peak.

 

[JonathanH]

Wasn't it pointed out though in the original thread that this doesn't provide enough capacity to Bournemouth because you can't encourage the passengers aboard at Southampton to split uniformly between the fast and slow service?

 

[PTR 444]

Wasn't it pointed out though in the original thread that this doesn't provide enough capacity to Bournemouth because you can't encourage the passengers aboard at Southampton to split uniformly between the fast and slow service?

With the front portion being limited stop to Weymouth, it wouldn’t be filled with so many passengers wanting Branksome, Parkstone and the more minor stations west of Poole, therefore capacity would be freed up for those that do want Bournemouth.

 

[Failed Unit]

I hope I am not sending this thread down a rabbit hole, but do a lot of people change at Clapham Junction, I certainly used to use it a lot when going onto services from the South West, because of the connection onto services from Gatwick Airport. But as we all know Clapham Junction has so much connectivity including Watford and the north.

 

[swt_passenger]

Wasn't it pointed out though in the original thread that this doesn't provide enough capacity to Bournemouth because you can't encourage the passengers aboard at Southampton to split uniformly between the fast and slow service?

And “local stakeholders” just wouldn‘t accept the loss of the half hourly through Weymouth service, which was one of the ideas in SWR’s 2018 plans.

 

[PTR 444]

And “local stakeholders” just wouldn‘t accept the loss of the half hourly through Weymouth service, which was one of the ideas in SWR’s 2018 plans.

And this was what the revised consultation option tried to resolve (retain xx35 ex Waterloo stopping pattern while splitting the xx05 at SOU all day with front portion limited stop to Poole), but this would have meant the loss of direct trains between stations west of Poole and east of Bournemouth (Pokesdown, Christchurch, New Milton).

 

[CarrotPie]

1tph (10-car train)
All: Clapham Junction, Woking, Southampton Central
Front: Bournemouth, Poole, Wareham, Dorchester South
Rear: Brockenhurst then all stations


1tph (5-car train)
Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Southampton Airport Parkway, Totton then all stations (Beaulieu Road 1tp2h)

 

[Wolfie]

Waterloo to Southampton non stop is no longer acceptable. The demand for fast trains from Winchester, Basingstoke, Parkway etc is too great to ignore.

Indeed. Satisfy one MP and have literally a dozen or more howling....

 

[cle]

Does Weymouth need more than 1tph to London itself? It's not a very important place really.

Poole and Bournemouth of course do need more, and can turn 'inners' - but I feel like some Coastway-style shuttles might do the job for local service/frequency.

 

[180zephyr]

And this was what the revised consultation option tried to resolve (retain xx35 ex Waterloo stopping pattern while splitting the xx05 at SOU all day with front portion limited stop to Poole), but this would have meant the loss of direct trains between stations west of Poole and east of Bournemouth (Pokesdown, Christchurch, New Milton).

Would it have worked doing it the other way around, having:

xx05 with similar stopping pattern as now - i.e. all stations west of Brockenhurst
xx35 fast to Southampton, then front portion doing current pattern of Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Poole and some stations to Weymouth
xx35 rear portion can then do all stations Southampton to Poole - if current timetable was retained, it would fit nicely into the path of the Poole stopper after Brockenhurst (which could terminate at Brockenhurst to avoid the awkward 25 minute wait? Or detach off the xx05, again fitting neatly into current timings?)

That way:
- Weymouth gets its 2 fast trains to London
- Stations either side of Bournemouth directly connected by the xx05 (exept Totton, Ashurst & Beaulieu Road, which don't have a direct service to west of Poole currently)
- Potentially, a path Waterloo to Soton is freed up by 'splitting up' the Poole stopper (xx39 from WAT)

Does Weymouth need more than 1tph to London itself? It's not a very important place really.

Poole and Bournemouth of course do need more, and can turn 'inners' - but I feel like some Coastway-style shuttles might do the job for local service/frequency.

This was the thinking in SWR's Dec 2018 consultation - have 1tph Weymouth to Waterloo, 1tph stopping Weymouth to Portsmouth and 1tph Waterloo to Poole. Having Weymouth lose 2tph to London and smaller stations losing a direct London service caused such an outcry that it was changed to having the Portsmouth terminating at Bournemouth and extend the Poole to Weymouth.

So, Weymouth certainly thinks it needs 2tph to London. Bear in mind that trains are only 5 coaches west of Poole (though some 8-car 450s ran for the Olympics IIRC?), so capacity on individual services is limited. And its MP clearly thinks even this is not good (or at least fast) enough.

Re coastway shuttles - I don't know how well they'd be used; the predecessor to Southern ran 1tph Bournemouth to Victoria via Chichester - ended up being cut back to Soton in the early 2000s, though unsure if this was because of low numbers. It only called at Brock and Bournemouth.

 

[swt_passenger]

Would it have worked doing it the other way around, having:

xx05 with similar stopping pattern as now - i.e. all stations west of Brockenhurst
xx35 fast to Southampton, then front portion doing current pattern of Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Poole and some stations to Weymouth
xx35 rear portion can then do all stations Southampton to Poole - if current timetable was retained, it would fit nicely into the path of the Poole stopper after Brockenhurst (which could terminate at Brockenhurst to avoid the awkward 25 minute wait? Or detach off the xx05, again fitting neatly into current timings?)

That way:
- Weymouth gets its 2 fast trains to London
- Stations either side of Bournemouth directly connected by the xx05 (exept Totton, Ashurst & Beaulieu Road, which don't have a direct service to west of Poole currently)
- Potentially, a path Waterloo to Soton is freed up by 'splitting up' the Poole stopper (xx39 from WAT)

The xx39 between Waterloo and Southampton provides for all those intermediate flows that aren‘t possible on the fasts, eg Woking to Basingstoke, the calls at Farnborough, Eastleigh etc etc. I don’t see how you can remove it, and neither do SWR as it still exists in the 2022 proposals, where it becomes a Southampton terminating service and does away with the wait at Brockenhurst. It also works with the Waterloo to Portsmouth via Eastleigh xx09 to provide the various lesser stations their half hourly semifast calling pattern.

 

[paul1609]

Does Weymouth need more than 1tph to London itself? It's not a very important place really.

Poole and Bournemouth of course do need more, and can turn 'inners' - but I feel like some Coastway-style shuttles might do the job for local service/frequency.

If Weymouth were a Coastway station it wouldn't justify a through service to London at all. Its 670k entries and exits in the latest Station entries figures puts it on a par with stations like Seaford and West Worthing. Even the quieter Coastway terminus stations Littlehampton and Bognor come in at around 50% more passengers at around a million.
Fact is Weymouth is too far from London to get significant Day Trippper or commuter traffic. For the size of the place it already has a pretty good service.

 

[30907]

If Weymouth were a Coastway station it wouldn't justify a through service to London at all. Its 670k entries and exits in the latest Station entries figures puts it on a par with stations like Seaford and West Worthing. Even the quieter Coastway terminus stations Littlehampton and Bognor come in at around 50% more passengers at around a million.

They all get at least as frequent a service as Weymouth overall.

Fact is Weymouth is too far from London to get significant Day Trippper or commuter traffic. For the size of the place it already has a pretty good service.

Indeed it does (being at the end of the line is always an advantage), and there is no realistic way the service could be increased in frequency, either practically or economically.
The question that exercised a previous thread and is now exercising this one is whether the stopping pattern could be altered to the benefit of (Dorchester and) Weymouth. As this could only happen West of Southampton (see posts #6,7), we are talking maybe 5-6 minutes - and only if the revised timetable fits at Moreton.

 

[cle]

Also, the main stations along the way are quite platform-starved. The two-track sections aren't so bad, and Brockenhurst is well-used and another loop further west would help - but Southampton, Bournemouth and Poole could certainly do with platforms or two, to run the odd shuttle. And keep London services faster, and longer.

I do recall a Southampton 5th platform plan somewhere. Could that help? I also don't think Victoria services really need to go west of Portsmouth. Portsmouth itself could field another fast to give Swanwick a semi-fast service, and combine into one of the Dorset frequencies. Or something else up to Salisbury and Bristol, to add/compensate to the loss of the Waterloo-Bristol.

 

[paul1609]

They all get at least as frequent a service as Weymouth overall.

I think pre-covid Seaford only had 1 tpd direct to London, the equivalent of a 1tph service to Bournemouth changing there over a footbridge to a London service.

 

[zwk500]

I do recall a Southampton 5th platform plan somewhere. Could that help?

The 5th platform would be fairly short, take a few years to get in place and would only be any use if a gap is open to cross into it for the arriving train.

 

[paul1609]

Also, the main stations along the way are quite platform-starved. The two-track sections aren't so bad, and Brockenhurst is well-used and another loop further west would help - but Southampton, Bournemouth and Poole could certainly do with platforms or two, to run the odd shuttle. And keep London services faster, and longer.

I do recall a Southampton 5th platform plan somewhere. Could that help? I also don't think Victoria services really need to go west of Portsmouth. Portsmouth itself could field another fast to give Swanwick a semi-fast service, and combine into one of the Dorset frequencies. Or something else up to Salisbury and Bristol, to add/compensate to the loss of the Waterloo-Bristol.

See my post on the other thread Chichester and Havant have major flows to Southampton2 tph essential, would make more sense to build a bay platform at Cosham to serve the branch to Portsmouth Harbour.

 

[Grecian 1998]

The obvious question to ask is how many people in Weymouth / Dorchester /West Dorset will travel on faster services to London who are currently put off by the existing journey times, paying for faster services which omit intermediate stations? There can't be many.

The journey time in 1991-92 for services calling at Southampton Airport, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Poole, Wareham and then all stations to Weymouth was 2h30m westbound and 2h32m eastbound. The times pre-COVID with additional stops at Woking, Winchester, Branksome, Parkstone and Hamworthy but with the stops at Wool, Moreton and Upwey removed were IIRC 2h38 westbound and 2h46 eastbound. I can't really see that a time differential of 8m / 14m will suddenly attract hordes of passengers who previously weren't interested.

At the moment the HoW takes 1h03 from Weymouth to Castle Cary. Take off 2 mins for the Upwey Stop, then about 5/6 minutes for Chetnole, Yeominster and Thornford. All trains must stop at Maiden Newton and Yeovil PM for token exchange and you will be stopping at Dorchester South because it'd be madness not to, you're looking at 55 minutes to Castle Cary. An 800 won't be doing much better than anything else on the HoW because the linespeed's fairly low anyway.

Castle Cary to Paddington on a train stopping Westbury, Pewsey, Newbury and Reading is 1h30. So total time for Weymouth to Pad with stops at Dorchester West, Maiden Newton, Yeovil Pen Mill, Castle Cary, Westbury, Pewsey, Newbury and Reading is 2h25, maybe a little less as 800s are better accelerating than 158s.

The far bigger issue is finding a path between Paddington and Reading on the Main Lines.

Train sources: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G82810/2021-07-28/detailed, https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G60366/2021-07-28/detailed

A train calling at Dorchester West, Maiden Newton and Yeovil Pen Mill only in the 1991-92 timetable did Weymouth - Castle Cary in 52 minutes. Stopping services following the same pattern as now could do it in as little as 56 minutes. I'm not aware of any new speed restrictions, but the general increase in frequency across the network since then seems to mean HoW services have to be kept out of the way of mainline services, increasing journey times.

A bigger problem would be that the summer Saturday HSTs were limited to 40mph between Dorchester and Yeovil Pen Mill, even though the prevailing linespeed for 15x / 16x units is generally 75mph. If 800s weren't permitted to use the higher differential, they wouldn't be competitive with the current service.

In any case I'd repeat what I said above - where are the passengers going to come from to fill a 800 who wouldn't be using the current service?

 

[30907]

I think pre-covid Seaford only had 1 tpd direct to London, the equivalent of a 1tph service to Bournemouth changing there over a footbridge to a London service.

I know, Seaford suffers from being a branch terminus and has always missed out on London trains.
By "overall" I meant all trains, not through trains to London, sorry if that wasn't clear enough.

 

[[.n]]

In answer to questions posed earlier, the answer is yes Weymouth / Dorchester / West Dorset generally needs better services to London, including not just faster services (we've gone backwards over the years in terms of journey time) , but also services that run later.

I've said this before in SWR land they seem to assume that once services reach Bournemouth, that anything to the west may as well be Narnia and not exist.

If the GWR Weymouth - London route is a serious option, then improvement needs to be made to Dorchester West to station access and route linking to Dorchester South. That's before we get First to do a little of integrated thinking and sync their buses better!

 

[swt_passenger]

Anyway, on a random train leaving Weymouth, how many passengers are going to destinations between Weymouth and Basingstoke, and how many between Basingstoke and London? It’s all very well the MP worrying about time to London, but is his new service idea going to be an extra, or a replacement? Because a single service via Dorchester South is going to have to be an all stations stopper, isn’t it, probably to at least Poole…

 

[HamworthyGoods]

In answer to questions posed earlier, the answer is yes Weymouth / Dorchester / West Dorset generally needs better services to London, including not just faster services (we've gone backwards over the years in terms of journey time) , but also services that run later.

A half-hourly service to London from places the size of Weymouth (50k population) and Dorchester (18k population) isn’t exactly a poor service.

Look at the likes of Clacton (50k population and also a seaside resort) it only has an hourly service and Harwich (18k population) also an hourly service.

Dorchester and Weymouth actually fare quite well in terms of service provision….

 

[zwk500]

A half-hourly service to London from places the size of Weymouth (50k population) and Dorchester (18k population) isn’t exactly a poor service.

Look at the likes of Clacton (50k population and also a seaside resort) it only has an hourly service and Harwich (18k population) also an hourly service.

Dorchester and Weymouth actually fare quite well in terms of service provision….

Tbf the post you replied didn't say the frequency was bad, mentioning only the hours of operation and the journey time.