Caledonian Sleeper

[JonathanH]

I don't know about you, but I don't consider reliability of 66.6% to be even remotely acceptable, it certainly isn't operating "almost all of their services reliably", it's utterly appalling.

95%+ is the level I would consider to aim at for reliability, 90%+ is acceptable, 85% a bit off, anything below that is unacceptably poor, 66.6% is terrible.

Of course the situation isn't of their doing, but you do need to plan your services so you can deliver them. Avanti are at least trying to do this as are Northern.

Waking people up at 4am is not honouring a booking. At least they could publicise that there was a risk of this, offer free refunds on all tickets and allow people to choose if they wished to take that risk.

Yes, but you are advocating that the Aberdeen portion is simply cancelled 100% because they are currently cancelling 40% of the service.

I imagine you don't have any current bookings for the sleeper. I dont at the moment either so we aren't talking from first hand experience.

It seems apparent that there are a range of solutions they consider depending on what capacity is available. Some involve being woken up at 4am. Anecdotal evidence suggests that notification of this comes a bit later than is ideal. Not everyone can just call off their journey and take a refund though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but you are advocating that the Aberdeen portion is simply cancelled 100% because they are currently cancelling 40% of the service.

Yes, correct. People need to be able to plan, so TOCs need to reduce their services to a level they can reliably deliver.

 

[JonathanH]

Yes, correct. People need to be able to plan, so TOCs need to reduce their services to a level they can reliably deliver.

I'd take being woken up at 4am over just having my journey cancelled, particularly if I had other things planned around the journey. I think most people would.

 

[HST274]

What I think we've learned is that if you want to take the sleeper, Fort william is your best bet!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd take being woken up at 4am over just having my journey cancelled, particularly if I had other things planned around the journey. I think most people would.

I can see that argument, but I would want it to be made clear in advance and a refund offered, because I personally would take a flight instead if that was likely.

 

[GLC]

Is there no option for simply leaving the berths at Waverley for a few hours to allow for more sleep for Aberdeen passengers before catching a Scotrail service in the morning (at the expense of a later arrival into Aberdeen)? I presume paths later in the day to work ECS and get the unit ultimately to Aberdeen for the return working is the limiting factor?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there no option for simply leaving the berths at Waverley for a few hours to allow for more sleep for Aberdeen passengers (at the expense of a later arrival into Aberdeen)? I presume paths later in the day to get the unit ultimately to Aberdeen for the return working is the limiting factor?

The issue is crew, and surely it would need to be crewed if occupied?

 

[GALLANTON]

Was there a reason why the Sleeper was separated from ScotRail into it's own micro-franchise and will it be re-merged when Transport Scotland takes over operations from Abellio?

 

[JonathanH]

Is there no option for simply leaving the berths at Waverley for a few hours to allow for more sleep for Aberdeen passengers before catching a Scotrail service in the morning (at the expense of a later arrival into Aberdeen)? I presume paths later in the day to work ECS and get the unit ultimately to Aberdeen for the return working is the limiting factor?

I suspect you need to factor driver hours into that. Presumably these are planned around the driver taking their train to Aberdeen and into Clayhills for servicing. It would be in the way of other services at Edinburgh as well.

 

[STINT47]

Is there no option for simply leaving the berths at Waverley for a few hours to allow for more sleep for Aberdeen passengers before catching a Scotrail service in the morning (at the expense of a later arrival into Aberdeen)? I presume paths later in the day to work ECS and get the unit ultimately to Aberdeen for the return working is the limiting factor?

According to Caledonian Sleeper onward travel is by road and passengers are expected to arrive at their destinations on time.

As the will not pay for multiple road transport options everyone has to go on the same bus.

Looks like boarding was also delayed at Euston to cap it off.

 

[Bald Rick]

Was there a reason why the Sleeper was separated from ScotRail into it's own micro-franchise and will it be re-merged when Transport Scotland takes over operations from Abellio?

Transport Scotland decided to split it. No indication they will merge it, but anything can happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Transport Scotland decided to split it. No indication they will merge it, but anything can happen.

I certainly suspect Serco will be enthusiastic to get out. It has not done them any favours, and they have already exited this sort of operation in Australia.

 

[MotCO]

Taken from the sleeper website

"The Caledonian Sleeper is the most civilised way to travel between Scotland and London, allowing you to arrive refreshed at your destination of choice following your overnight journey."

Being woken up at 4.00 am to be put on a bus does not equate to a 'civilised way to travel'. There was an earlier suggestion that someone should sue under the Trade Dscriptions Act - surely that would succeed.

Also, are any refunds being given? I accept that passengers may arrive at about the right time, but there is a vast difference between having a sleep all the way in a private room, and being shunted bleary-eyed onto a bus half-way through, with little chance of a comfortable sleep for the remainder of the journey. Anyone inconvenienced in this way should receive a sizeable refund automatically.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Being woken up at 4.00 am to be put on a bus does not equate to a 'civilised way to travel'. There was an earlier suggestion that someone should sue under the Trade Dscriptions Act - surely that would succeed.

Also, are any refunds being given? I accept that passengers may arrive at about the right time, but there is a vast difference between having a sleep all the way in a private room, and being shunted bleary-eyed onto a bus half-way through, with little chance of a comfortable sleep for the remainder of the journey. Anyone inconvenienced in this way should receive a sizeable refund automatically.

Agreed. Refunding down to not far off the price of a seat, which would provide a similar level of lack of sleep, would be a start.

 

[Peter Sarf]

What I think we've learned is that if you want to take the sleeper, Fort william is your best bet!

NO - Penzance !.

What I think is important, if there are cancellations of part of the journey, is that people have as many choices as possible. I would want the choice of cancelling or being woken up at 4am or, if possible, going to Perth/Inverness.

 

[Highlandspring]

I actually feel sorry for the poor hosts who’ll have to chap on the doors and wake everyone. Can’t be much fun knowing you’re ruining someone’s expensive trip. Also bearing in mind 1S25 arrives at the Waverley at 0350 and departs at 0421 I guess they’ll be waking people a bit before 0400…

 

[najaB]

I actually feel sorry for the poor hosts who’ll have to chap on the doors and wake everyone. Can’t be much fun knowing you’re ruining someone’s expensive trip. Also bearing in mind 1S25 arrives at the Waverley at 0350 and departs at 0421 I guess they’ll be waking people a bit before 0400…

It's a shame that they can't punt it into P0 at Haymarket for people who don't mind being late up to Aberdeen. I can't imagine that would be a problem for driver hours and it would be out of the way of just about everything.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Both my elected representatives in both Scotland and London are absolutely spitting feathers over the sleeper situation. The former because he sees it as a huge waste of taxpayer subsidy especially if it doesn't work and the latter because she attempts to use it for work herself and has more disruption than success. I wonder what the standard of coaches are that Caledonian Sleeper are providing? In the bad old days of new stock introduction when they were bussing people from one end of the country to the other I had a couple of journeys like this and the vehicles that were hired were not luxurious to say the least

 

[Merseysider]

Just passed the southbound Lowland sleeper on my way north - it’s running about 2.5 hours late at Stafford. I dread to imagine what happened there.

I’m booked on the Highlander next week in the middle of mountain walks, and if I’m turfed out in the middle of the night I’ll be raising hell.

I agree with @Bletchleyite that refunding down to the seat/walk up single price is appropriate in this situation - if CS have to start paying out a hundred quid or two to everyone they shove on a bus, it might prompt someone, somewhere, to do something...

 

[Statto]

Just passed the southbound Lowland sleeper on my way north - it’s running about 2.5 hours late at Stafford. I dread to imagine what happened there.

I’m booked on it next week in the middle of mountain walks, and if I’m turfed out in the middle of the night I’ll be raising hell.

I agree with @Bletchleyite that refunding down to the seat/walk up single price is appropriate in this situation - if CS have to start paying out a hundred quid or two to everyone they shove on a bus, it might prompt someone, somewhere, to do something...

Looking at realtime trains, Glasgow portion left on time, Edinburgh portion left Edinburgh 40 late[even though it arrived ECS in Edinburgh from Polmadie on time] got held up further at Carstairs, were it eventually departed 03.05

 

[Highlandspring]

Looking at realtime trains, Glasgow portion left on time, Edinburgh portion left Edinburgh 40 late[even though it arrived ECS in Edinburgh from Polmadie on time] got held up further at Carstairs, were it eventually departed 03.05

The Edinburgh late start was down an issue with the shunter. The overtime at Carstairs was due to a problem configuring the train management system when the portions were joined.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Their social media channel says it was a technical fault at carstairs. Whilst the delay itself is unwelcome this for me would be a minor win as whilst I tried to support the lowlander when I can I never quite feel I get enough off shut I

 

[Falcon1200]

Transport Scotland decided to split it. No indication they will merge it, but anything can happen.

Separating the Sleepers from Scotrail was, IMHO, madness; I witnessed first-hand how difficult it could be for Scotrail Control to manage incidents, even with the resources they had, never mind a separate, and by TOC standards, tiny operation. Suffice it to say that my Scotrail colleagues were not exactly devastated when they no longer had to deal with the Sleepers.....

It's a shame that they can't punt it into P0 at Haymarket for people who don't mind being late up to Aberdeen. I can't imagine that would be a problem for driver hours and it would be out of the way of just about everything.

Holding 1S25 etc at Waverley would cause platforming issues, and the train would not fit in Platform 0 at Haymarket ! Plus, how would it get out of 0 ? And, as already mentioned, there would be issues with staffing.

Given the huge public subsidy the Sleepers require I too fear for the operation's future, the current unreliability cannot be doing anything for the service's finances, reputation and usefulness. Sooner or later hard questions are going to be asked (if not already).

 

[AberdeenBill]

Just to provide some rare good news I travelled back from Aberdeen last night with no disruption or interruption to the journey. Arrived in Euston bang on time and was in work by 08:20. When it works it works well and is definitely for me the best way to travel.

 

[SandsofEss]

Can anybody shed any light on the reduced catering offering on the Highland sleeper at present.

I understand it's room service (when offered at all). Are meals available, and will the free meals for under 12's still be offered?

 

[najaB]

Holding 1S25 etc at Waverley would cause platforming issues, and the train would not fit in Platform 0 at Haymarket ! Plus, how would it get out of 0 ? And, as already mentioned, there would be issues with staffing.

I wasn't thinking the whole train, just the Aberdeen portion. Wasn't P0 built to handle eight carriage trains? As to how it would get out, I would have thought a propelling move into the platform would be allowed, no?

 

[43096]

I wasn't thinking the whole train, just the Aberdeen portion. Wasn't P0 built to handle eight carriage trains? As to how it would get out, I would have thought a propelling move into the platform would be allowed, no?

Just think about that. The train splits at Waverley. How are you even getting the Aberdeen portion into Haymarket P0? All in all, even with the barest scrutiny, it’s totally impractical.

 

[zwk500]

I wasn't thinking the whole train, just the Aberdeen portion. Wasn't P0 built to handle eight carriage trains? As to how it would get out, I would have thought a propelling move into the platform would be allowed, no?

Without passengers on board, it would be permitted to propel out on to the main line, but would then need to draw forward to P6/7 to runround before returning south. The other option would be to couple up another unit with Dellners and drag it out.

 

[najaB]

Without passengers on board, it would be permitted to propel out on to the main line, but would then need to draw forward to P6/7 to runround before returning south. The other option would be to couple up another unit with Dellners and drag it out.

I meant to propel into P0 at Haymarket, in a similar manner to how The Scotsman is propelled into P3 at Dundee.

 

[zwk500]

I meant to propel into P0 at Haymarket, in a similar manner to how The Scotsman is propelled into P3 at Dundee.

Ah, misread that. I think the tunnels might cause issues with seeing the shunt signals and propelling.