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Is it still necessary for drivers to sit at the front and look out the window?

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NoRoute

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Moderator note: Split from
As this is speculative, is it still necessary for drivers to sit at the front and look out the window?

Video technology has advanced so much it should be possible to build a redundant, high integrity system using video cameras. Control systems are now by wire. Signals are moving in cab. Technologies for sign recognition and augmenting video are advancing, indeed night visibility might be better with a camera.

Perhaps the train of the future has a driver's office at the side of the carriage, with video feeds from each end and along the body of the train.
 
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NoRoute

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If it fails, how do you move the train?
How do you drive the train when any of the various drive by wire control systems fail?

I'm not sure this justifies as separate thread, it felt a natural part of the previous thread discussing how you could move the driving position to make train operation more flexible.
 

Gloster

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Why bother? You still have a driver on board, so no saving there, but a lot of extra equipment to install and maintain that has to be paid for. And, as mentioned above, it can go wrong and then what do you do?

Isn’t there supposed to be a trial going on in Russia where trains will be driven on a long-distance route from a central control centre? It was supposed to be at or approaching the point where the control centre would take over the driving, but drivers would remain in the cab while the system was tested. However, this is Russia, so it may all be smoke and mirrors.
 

Annetts key

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If you are automating the train, what do you need a driver for? With the technology available now, you don’t need the driver to drive the train. The automation can comply with the signalling system, follow the timetable, use the signalling system to stop at the correct position at stations. Detect obstacles or obstructions ahead of the train (using the same technology that automated road vehicles use).

All you need a train crew member to do is press the reset button should the system develop a recoverable fault. Or take instructions from the maintenance depot if anything else goes wrong. Or to talk to the signaller to request a train to assist or a rescue train…
 

D365

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I'm not sure this justifies as separate thread, it felt a natural part of the previous thread discussing how you could move the driving position to make train operation more flexible.
Because the proposal under discussion is for an entirely new system of operation?
 

gg1

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Why bother? You still have a driver on board, so no saving there, but a lot of extra equipment to install and maintain that has to be paid for. And, as mentioned above, it can go wrong and then what do you do?

Isn’t there supposed to be a trial going on in Russia where trains will be driven on a long-distance route from a central control centre? It was supposed to be at or approaching the point where the control centre would take over the driving, but drivers would remain in the cab while the system was tested. However, this is Russia, so it may all be smoke and mirrors.
The one advantage I can see is such a train only needs one cab, which allows for a little more space for passengers and makes reversals more straightforward due to eliminating the need for the driver to change ends.

Whether that outweighs the disadvantages and risks is another matter however, I lean towards no.
 

Western Lord

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There is now nobody in the control tower at London City Airport, it is all monitored remotely from, I believe, the Swanwick air traffic control centre.
 

furnessvale

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Iron ore trains in the Pilbara range in Western Australia are driven from an air conditioned office, hundreds of miles away in Perth.
 

DerekC

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If you are automating the train, what do you need a driver for? With the technology available now, you don’t need the driver to drive the train. The automation can comply with the signalling system, follow the timetable, use the signalling system to stop at the correct position at stations. Detect obstacles or obstructions ahead of the train (using the same technology that automated road vehicles use).

All you need a train crew member to do is press the reset button should the system develop a recoverable fault. Or take instructions from the maintenance depot if anything else goes wrong. Or to talk to the signaller to request a train to assist or a rescue train…
With the exception of obstruction detection, ATO can do the things you say. Obstruction detection for automated road vehicles doesn't work for trains because cameras and lidar can't see round curves to the limit of a train's braking distance. More fundamentally, the main line railway as it stands is nowhere near reliable enough for unattended operation and coping with breakdowns and emergencies remotely demands high capacity always-on track to train communications with built-in backups and 100% coverage. (GSM-R is a low capacity channel designed for voice, with less than 100% coverage and no backup). If the train fails or there is a track or OLE fault which immobilises it, you need to know exactly where it is (not just which signal section it is in) and that information needs to be available to controller and train crew and (if needed) emergency services. That's quite apart from monitoring the passengers, particularly as they board and alight and deciding when to close the doors.

Converting to the kind of automated railway you are thinking about demands a complete rethink of the operational concept, new rulebook, new safety principles, redesigning the signalling and control system to eliminate track circuits, new more reliable trains designed for ATO, self-monitoring switches and crossings, high quality radio comms - the list goes on and would cost £squillions. That's not to say it won't ever happen, but it's going to take a long, long time.
 

JamesT

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would passengers like it?

Would they notice the difference? Currently the driver is shut away in their cab at the front of the train. If you switched to onboard cameras, they'd be shut away in a cab in the middle of the train.
 

gg1

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well it might reduce the risk of drivers being traumatised by killing people I suppose
Would it though?

The driver would still witness the event via high definition camera and they would still have the knowledge that a person was killed by a train they were driving.
 

Annetts key

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Obstruction detection for automated road vehicles doesn't work for trains because cameras and lidar can't see round curves to the limit of a train's braking distance. More fundamentally, the main line railway as it stands is nowhere near reliable enough for unattended operation and coping with breakdowns and emergencies remotely demands high capacity always-on track to train communications with built-in backups and 100% coverage. (GSM-R is a low capacity channel designed for voice, with less than 100% coverage and no backup). If the train fails or there is a track or OLE fault which immobilises it, you need to know exactly where it is (not just which signal section it is in) and that information needs to be available to controller and train crew and (if needed) emergency services. That's quite apart from monitoring the passengers, particularly as they board and alight and deciding when to close the doors.

Converting to the kind of automated railway you are thinking about demands a complete rethink of the operational concept, new rulebook, new safety principles, redesigning the signalling and control system to eliminate track circuits, new more reliable trains designed for ATO, self-monitoring switches and crossings, high quality radio comms - the list goes on and would cost £squillions. That's not to say it won't ever happen, but it's going to take a long, long time.
I was thinking that obstacle/obstruction detection would only be used for short range (183m / 200 yards) anyway. As on curved track, a human train driver is only using line of sight and can’t see round bends.

It may be possible for a longer range system to be used in future, once we have managed to work out how to remove background ‘clutter’ from being mistaken for obstacles or obstructions.

An obstacle/obstruction detection system is only ever going to be a last ditch effort if the train is travelling at high speed anyway.

I agree that the reliability of the whole railway system would need to be improved. Unfortunately I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

The responsibility for the passengers and the doors could return to being/continue to be the responsibility of the guard/conductor/train manager.

I’m not sure the track circuits, the points etc. are relevant here. It depends on which signalling system is in use. Track circuits or axle counters are likely to be retained as the final safety critical method of ensuring the track circuit block is clear. At least until more advanced systems become practical. In new installations point operating equipment is already monitored (*) in addition to the electrical detection. And in some places, said monitoring equipment is being or has been retrofitted.

(*) although how good it is, is another matter.

The on board computers on the train can pick up positional information from a GPS, radio data and track mounted Eurobalises. Plus use the train wheels to detect distance travelled and speed. Combined, this should give the on board computers a reasonably accurate current position.

By radio data, a better radio system would definitely be needed.

Yes, the procedures and rules would have to change. I personally don’t think it’s going to happen in the next ten to twenty years. It’s harder to predict beyond that timeframe.

But it is possible now (and by that, I mean the technology is available), even if it’s very unlikely to happen.
 

6Gman

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A few thoughts.

1. Having the driver at the front means they "feel" the train's response (e.g. to track faults) with an immediacy they wouldn't get part-way along the train, and that they wouldn't get at all in some remote control centre.
2. Mark I eyes are, I suggest, more intuitive than any automated system. Is that figure along the trackside a youth pondering trespass or a trackworker?
 

Meerkat

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Theoretically an obstruction detection system can be as good as the driver, if not better. The problem is likely to be that if you have to program a decision you have to take responsibility for that and it will err on the safer side than a driver.
if red zone working is ending then track workers shouldn’t be an issue, and maybe people would be warier about trespassing if there was ‘no one driving the train’?!
How often does a driver hitting the brakes make a serious difference to outcomes?
The Island Line would have been a decent place to try driverless train technology.
 

JamesRowden

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Would they notice the difference? Currently the driver is shut away in their cab at the front of the train. If you switched to onboard cameras, they'd be shut away in a cab in the middle of the train.
Some passengers could get a better view by looking out the front/back of the train like on the old observation carriages:D
 

O L Leigh

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Just takes one badly aimed squashy bug to render the cameras useless, whereas a similar bug strike to a windscreen is merely an inconvenience but can be looked round. And before anyone mentions wipers, can I just point out how poor these actually are at removing bugs without smearing...?

Besides, many drivers already do this as we have to drive simulators on our regular assessments. I personally find that judging distances is very tricky when presented with a flat 2D view of the world. I certainly wouldn't feel very confident driving a real train under these circumstances. There's also the question of excessive screen-time from staring at monitors all day.
 

alf

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In the early 1960’s SNCF had rural diesel rail cars where the driver sat on the roof in the centre of the carriage.
His legs were in a box protruding into the passenger saloon & he climbed an internal ladder I believe, to get in & out.
It hasn’t proved a winner!

One benefit of the driver away from the front is that the gangways at the end of multiple units could be made very wide just as they are within current Overground & Thameslink trains.
So Thameslink or South Western Rail trains with a driver in a cosy box could be composed of 4, 8 or 12 cars depending on demand...saving a lot of wasted energy in these CO2 conscious times.

It doesn’t seem worth the bother though.

Incidentally the huge staffless Rio Tinto ore trains in Western Australia rely on front end, & line side cameras for safety, & as far as I know they work well in that dusty desert environment, so front end multiple cameras are quite safe for a driver boxed up half way along the train.
 

Meerkat

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Incidentally the huge staffless Rio Tinto ore trains in Western Australia rely on front end, & line side cameras for safety, & as far as I know they work well in that dusty desert environment, so front end multiple cameras are quite safe for a driver boxed up half way along the train.
What kind of speed do they reach - I imagine they are pretty slow?
And presumably are pretty much non-stop, certainly with no platform stopping points to hit!
 

Gloster

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In the early 1960’s SNCF had rural diesel rail cars where the driver sat on the roof in the centre of the carriage.
His legs were in a box protruding into the passenger saloon & he climbed an internal ladder I believe, to get in & out.
It hasn’t proved a winner!
The X3800 railcars were known as Picassos because of the unusual placing of the cabin and were a successful type, lasting from the beginning of the 1950s to the late 1980s. There was a first class view for passengers from the saloon end, but I wonder if the drivers ended up with a crick in the neck as they sat side-on.
 

WAB

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Ask any Northern Line driver about the improvement in performance since ATO was introduced, and see how that goes...
 

furnessvale

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What kind of speed do they reach - I imagine they are pretty slow?
And presumably are pretty much non-stop, certainly with no platform stopping points to hit!
For many years, the Victoria line has demonstrated what a driverless train can achieve.

Only passenger and staff resistance stops those two buttons being pressed in a remote central control room.
 

Ken H

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For many years, the Victoria line has demonstrated what a driverless train can achieve.

Only passenger and staff resistance stops those two buttons being pressed in a remote central control room.
and of course there is DLR. no drivers there.
 

O L Leigh

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For many years, the Victoria line has demonstrated what a driverless train can achieve.

It’s not truly a driverless system and still requires a driver to be sat up in the front.

and of course there is DLR. no drivers there.

This is closer, but the technology and method of working used there is would not be transferable to the national network.

Besides, whether or not trains can be made driverless is not the question asked by the OP and has been discussed more than once already.
 
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