Caledonian Sleeper

[185143]

Now this is good to see.

Perfectly fine to criticise when it's a shambles, but I'd echo the previous comments that they do seen to have done well last night. Good on them.

 

[43096]

Agreed. I've been critical of Caledonian Sleepers in the past, but in this instance I think they've done well to come up with these very short notice alterations to minimise the inconvenience to the passengers / guests. Well done!

Not just Caledonian Sleeper, but GBRf have done well to find a loco and crews as well.

 

[Blindtraveler]

As others have said well done CS

 

[miklcct]

Why don't Caledonian Sleeper trains have rooms of 4 (2 x 2 levels) or 6 (2 x 3 levels) bunk beds like the Chinese sleeper trains?

 

[JonathanH]

Why don't Caledonian Sleeper trains have rooms of 4 (2 x 2 levels) or 6 (2 x 3 levels) bunk beds like the Chinese sleeper trains?

The carriages have to fit the UK loading gauge so 3 levels doesn't work. The rooms for two can be opened up as rooms for four.

Sharing with strangers has been discontinued.

 

[najaB]

The carriages have to fit the UK loading gauge so 3 levels doesn't work.

Doesn't work well, anyway. They probably could be made to work but it would be a bit cramped, which is the opposite direction from what the franchise has set itself up to be.

They aim to be a hotel on wheels, not a youth hostel on wheels.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Why don't Caledonian Sleeper trains have rooms of 4 (2 x 2 levels) or 6 (2 x 3 levels) bunk beds like the Chinese sleeper trains?

I used several couchettes in Europe in the early 1980s and they can be described as cozy. In fact one journey from Mainz into Austria in 1981 was particularly memorable. Myself and my mate had reservations which we found in the darkened compartment. He was on the middle, opposite me on the high level. Woke up in the morning and looked down from my lofty position to see a woman rolling stockings up her legs. You really wouldn't see that on our network, more importantly you wouldn't want to try squeezing the couchette compartment layout into anything in the classic lines of BR.

 

[miklcct]

The carriages have to fit the UK loading gauge so 3 levels doesn't work. The rooms for two can be opened up as rooms for four.

Sharing with strangers has been discontinued.

So which class of travel is primarily targeted for solo travellers who travel between England and Scotland or low-class workers who have their permanent home and family in rural Scotland but working in London?

 

[Bald Rick]

So which class of travel is primarily targeted for solo travellers who travel between England and Scotland or low-class workers who have their permanent home and family in rural Scotland but working in London?

1) any
2) easyJet

 

[InOban]

3) coach
4) car or van.

 

[alistairlees]

Seats is in fact the correct answer

 

[Davester50]

So which class of travel is primarily targeted for solo travellers who travel between England and Scotland or low-class workers who have their permanent home and family in rural Scotland but working in London?

Seats is in fact the correct answer

What, 30 odd seats per portion, compared with 16 flights a day just from Edinburgh, 7 from Aberdeen, 13 from Glasgow, and 5 from Inverness, not including the Loganair flights, or really early/late day trains, and buses?

 

[alistairlees]

What, 30 odd seats per portion, compared with 16 flights a day just from Edinburgh, 7 from Aberdeen, 13 from Glasgow, and 5 from Inverness, not including the Loganair flights, or really early/late day trains, and buses?

The planes have seats on them

 

[Davester50]

Ha ha, cross purposes, but very good.

 

[Bletchleyite]

3) coach
4) car or van.

5) An Advance on a day train

I suspect this is again an Asian example, though. Lots of Chinese people commute to the cities for low paid jobs because the work isn't there in the rural areas, same with people going from Malaysia to Singapore. That commuting simply doesn't exist in the UK in the same way - if people in a rural area can't get work they typically just relocate and visit home periodically rather than doing some kind of weekly commute. This is probably because family bonds typically aren't as strong in the UK as Asia.

Weekly commuting in the UK is mostly for IT (etc) contractors and oil rig workers who aren't low paid and so can afford to pay the Sleeper fares if it suits their purposes (but probably mostly choose air).

 

[Peter Sarf]

5) An Advance on a day train

I suspect this is again an Asian example, though. Lots of Chinese people commute to the cities for low paid jobs because the work isn't there in the rural areas, same with people going from Malaysia to Singapore. That commuting simply doesn't exist in the UK in the same way - if people in a rural area can't get work they typically just relocate and visit home periodically rather than doing some kind of weekly commute. This is probably because family bonds typically aren't as strong in the UK as Asia.

Weekly commuting in the UK is mostly for IT (etc) contractors and oil rig workers who aren't low paid and so can afford to pay the Sleeper fares if it suits their purposes (but probably mostly choose air).

I have encountered many people going back to Cardiff on a Friday evening by coach having worked in London daytimes since early on Monday morning. I expect the same happens to Glasgow/Edinburgh. But Cardiff is too short a journey to make a sleeper relevant and that is probably true of most major cities in the UK.

Oil rig workers to/from Aberdeen was certainly true. But I get the impression they no longer use the sleeper to/from Aberdeen because their start times are not early enough on the first day to need such an early arrival.

 

[haggishunter]

The planes have seats on them

RyanAir is working on that as we speak.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have encountered many people going back to Cardiff on a Friday evening by coach having worked in London daytimes since early on Monday morning. I expect the same happens to Glasgow/Edinburgh. But Cardiff is too short a journey to make a sleeper relevant and that is probably true of most major cities in the UK.

I very much doubt they will be doing "menial" type jobs, though, more likely lower end professional roles. The type of weekly commuting being referred to above does go on in China, the poster concerned being rather biased that way in his experiences.

I bet the number of people weekly commuting to work on the tills in Tesco in the UK, or to clean offices, is somewhere around or actually 0. That sort of commuting does happen in China from the rural areas where there is often little work. But that is due to the nature of China - rural nothingness with a few massive cities - versus the UK where you have a much larger number of smaller towns and cities providing work, and no real wilderness unless you go to the Scottish Highlands.

Oil rig workers to/from Aberdeen was certainly true. But I get the impression they no longer use the sleeper to/from Aberdeen because their start times are not early enough on the first day to need such an early arrival.

I know one and he flies (Sleasy from Luton), but one is obviously only anecdotal. I do however believe you are right, and it is one of the reasons the Aberdeen is increasingly a basket case - how things change - I can see it being dropped at some point as just having the Highlander do Inverness and Fort William would massively simplify the operation, and if they would tweak the timings slightly so the connection wasn't just 4 minutes then you could connect via Edinburgh off the Lowlander to Aberdeen and arrive by 10am, good enough for most purposes.

 

[Journeyman]

A lot of senior execs in the oil business used to use the Aberdeen portion, but that absolutely nosedived after the price of oil dropped sharply in about 2015, and the industry went into some decline. It used to have a higher proportion of first class passengers than any of the other portions.

At the same time, the loadings on the Fort William have seen healthy growth, especially off-season when it used to be pretty much empty.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I very much doubt they will be doing "menial" type jobs, though, more likely lower end professional roles. The type of weekly commuting being referred to above does go on in China, the poster concerned being rather biased that way in his experiences.

I bet the number of people weekly commuting to work on the tills in Tesco in the UK, or to clean offices, is somewhere around or actually 0. That sort of commuting does happen in China from the rural areas where there is often little work. But that is due to the nature of China - rural nothingness with a few massive cities - versus the UK where you have a much larger number of smaller towns and cities providing work, and no real wilderness unless you go to the Scottish Highlands.



I know one and he flies (Sleasy from Luton), but one is obviously only anecdotal. I do however believe you are right, and it is one of the reasons the Aberdeen is increasingly a basket case - how things change - I can see it being dropped at some point as just having the Highlander do Inverness and Fort William would massively simplify the operation, and if they would tweak the timings slightly so the connection wasn't just 4 minutes then you could connect via Edinburgh off the Lowlander to Aberdeen and arrive by 10am, good enough for most purposes.

You are right. I know of other Asian countries where there are a few big cities and no/few medium sized cities. Then vast tracts of rural area. China is a lot bigger than the UK but the parallel would be if Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds had populations of about 500,000 then a larger population in London quite possibly spread over fewer square miles. In the case of Hong Kong it is hemmed in on the Hong Kong island and the Kowloon peninsular. It is all land we leased off China so needed to keep within. If I remember correctly a lot of people commuted into Kowloon from mainland China. The lease expiring on the Kowloon peninsular is what made it necessary to hand it all back. Hong Kong island had a 999 year lease on it but was not workable without Kowloon iirc. That is how compact Hong Kong is. I was there in 1996.

Whereas back in the UK there are not many routes long enough to warrant the time taken for an overnight sleeper anyway. That is why CS pinned their hopes on tourists to Scotland in my opinion.

 

[AberdeenBill]

I work in the construction industry, mainly on large infrastructure projects eg Crossrail, HS2, T5 etc. and these are usually supported by both blue collar and professionals from all parts of the UK, who tend to live away during the week and travel home at weekends. Of the Scottish contingent, in my experience, nearly all fly. The only ones i have ever known take the sleeper was when i was doing a project for a TOC where a couple of senior permanent staff took the sleeper to Glasgow every Friday, but they will either have travelled cheaply through working for the TOC or on expenses. Unless someone is on a very good day rate, I just don't think the cost of the sleeper justifies most people using it on a weekly basis for work travel purposes.

 

[najaB]

Unless someone is on a very good day rate, I just don't think the cost of the sleeper justifies most people using it on a weekly basis for work travel purposes.

Back when sleeper supplements were readily available and cheap (used to be about £40 from what I remember) it was worth it. They've priced themselves out of that business.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Back when sleeper supplements were readily available and cheap (used to be about £40 from what I remember) it was worth it. They've priced themselves out of that business.

I agree. They have to be relying on promises to tourists of a grand journey to Scotland in their business model.

What keeps the SW sleeper going ?. Plymouth ?.

 

[XAM2175]

In the case of Hong Kong it is hemmed in on the Hong Kong island and the Kowloon peninsular. It is all land we leased off China so needed to keep within. If I remember correctly a lot of people commuted into Kowloon from mainland China. The lease expiring on the Kowloon peninsular is what made it necessary to hand it all back. Hong Kong island had a 999 year lease on it but was not workable without Kowloon iirc. That is how compact Hong Kong is. I was there in 1996.

Your point is valid but for the sake of correctness; the island of Hong Kong was ceded in perpetuity to the Crown in 1842, and that portion of the Kowloon Peninsula that lay south of Boundary Street was similarly ceded in perpetuity in 1860. It was the New Territories that created the problem for the continuation of the Colony - these made up the vast majority of the Colony's area and had been leased from China in 1898 for a term of 99 years only, which the PRC government subsequently refused to extend.

Back when sleeper supplements were readily available and cheap (used to be about £40 from what I remember) it was worth it. They've priced themselves out of that business.

Yes, and as discussed previously, they had to up their margins because the usual approach to low-margin sales - high volumes - cannot feasibly be applied to the sleeper operation here.

 

[najaB]

Yes, and as discussed previously, they had to up their margins because the usual approach to low-margin sales - high volumes - cannot feasibly be applied to the sleeper operation here.

I know that, but a bed that's sold at a 50% discount is bringing more revenue in than an empty one. It wouldn't hurt them to make a few supplements available at a reasonable price on the less busy services.

 

[Carntyne]

Why? I hear the Sleeper is busy on almost all portions. If you can make the full fare then there's no need to discount.

 

[najaB]

Why? I hear the Sleeper is busy on almost all portions. If you can make the full fare then there's no need to discount.

But then, it's the height of summer, come back again in a few months.

 

[pitdiver]

I hope its not too busy in November or February as I'm hoping to go up to Inverness possibly on the sleeper.

 

[najaB]

I hope its not too busy in November or February as I'm hoping to go up to Inverness possibly on the sleeper.

Going back a few years to before the new stock came in, but I once had the indignity of being forced to split a carriage between myself and two other passengers one February*!

That was an outlier, but I suspect the loadings won't be significantly higher now than they were then.

*Edit: Might have been in January now that I think about it.

 

[Sleepy]

What keeps the SW sleeper going ?. Plymouth ?.

Mainly Cornwall travellers, pre- Covid some weekly London based workers, no idea if any have returned yet ? Plymouth timings are not great (0530 ish arrival) - it used to have it's own portion until 2006.