Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

[Clip]

I know, you keep mentioning it but was try to quote TTNRNORN but didnt work

 

[Mogz]

One thing I don't get is why people think a product not aimed at them is a bad idea simply because they don't want it.

Yup! Like whenever I propose DB-style family compartments for travelling with the children.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yup! Like whenever I propose DB-style family compartments for travelling with the children.

I don't have kids and I think they're a good idea, because they would be able to play to their heart's (and parents') content without the noise bothering me. Indeed I think Standard in long trains like Pendolinos should have a dedicated family coach or perhaps half-coach.

 

[Skymonster]

I love the idea of Standard Premium as it’s just what I‘d want - a bigger seat with a table and I don’t need the catering as I’m capable of bringing my own in the knowledge it’ll be more to my choice and better. However, looking at London-Glasgow in mid-September it just doesn’t make sense price wise compared to an First Advance with LNER and connection.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I love the idea of Standard Premium as it’s just what I‘d want - a bigger seat with a table and I don’t need the catering as I’m capable of bringing my own in the knowledge it’ll be more to my choice and better. However, looking at London-Glasgow in mid-September it just doesn’t make sense price wise compared to an First Advance with LNER and connection.

Certainly I'd go West Coast even if more expensive - better seats, better view and quicker.

 

[Skymonster]

Certainly I'd go West Coast even if more expensive - better seats, better view and quicker.

By the I’d be done, most choices of Avanti Standard Premium and carry-on-catering would be getting on for fifty quid more than LNER first - just not justifiable when I don’t mind the Azumas in first.

 

[Skie]

I wonder how many people who would have previously paid for First Class will have decided to "downgrade" to Standard Premium if the only reason they upgraded was for a guaranteed table seat so they could do work on the move.

I travel in Standard almost exclusively and I've never found it hard to get a table seat. Either get to the unreserved coach sharpish or book the table seat in advance. There are at least 4 tables in each coach, most have more.

Unless First are planning on removing the number of tables in Standard to 'enhance' the offer of STD Premium...

 

[mmh]

because they’re offering a tiny upgrade to a seat only and pricing it at first class prices. £30 for just a bigger seat is not in anyway good value for most journeys apart from perhaps London to Glasgow - but myself and many others are used to a £12 seatfrog with food and drink included for that, and in comparison £30 for a seat is extortion

I said First would cheapen the West Coast (sadly not in terms of fares), and they appear to have done just that. Corporate and all about profits.

People pay much much more than 30 quid for bigger seats while not caring about the not-free freebie catering and drinks. I've flown to Hong Kong and San Francisco in business multiple times, and I have never drunk an alcoholic drink on an aircraft.

 

[Steddenm]

Travelled on the direct BPN-SAD service today at about 0946ish and sat in Standard Premium, the guard didn't even bother charging me as said it was a "waste of time", same on the way back via PRE the guard told me to move to First as it was more quieter (there were a lot of screaming kids in SP). Also the wifi wasnt working on either of the 390s and they kept advertising over the PA that you could order food via the Wifi landing page.

 

[jon0844]

I've used the at seat ordering service a few times and it's pretty good, but I did have some issues with making a payment because while the ordering is done locally, it obviously needs an outside connection to do the card processing - and it timed out a few times, leaving me wondering if my order had gone through or I was going to get charged twice (my phone will show me any payment made, but my phone also had next to no service periodically).

I have to say that I am not bothered about giving up the free food/drink, as it's not as if you're absolutely drowned in free drink and given loads of food. Yes you can be cheeky and ask for more, but I think standard premier strikes a good balance and clearly as first class continues to shrink in size, it allows for more seats to be kept free for those who have paid an awful lot more.

Obviously bringing your own food/drink onboard is the best option, especially as on one journey to Glasgow the at seat ordering was down for the whole journey. It's quite a long walk to coach C from standard premier, and awkward if the train is quite busy.

 

[BluePenguin]

Just to pick up on this point, which you do mention very regularly on here.

You're perhaps of average to low height and relatively skinny? If so, it is not intended for you. You would have the same level of comfort in a Standard seat that I have in a First Class one.

I'm 6' 4", built like a rugby player and fat. It is very much intended for me and I consider it good value, and on a Pendolino to me the simple seat upgrade is a big upgrade - it's from being uncomfortable (unless I manage to get one of the priority rows and nobody next to me) to being very comfortable, not to mention the guaranteed good window view.

We cannot help our height or how tall we are. But with respect, surely in the long run it would be considerably cheaper to lose weight rather than pay for a larger seat. Less money spent on food = less need for Standard Premium. There is no shame in being fat, but it can come at a price. Be it having to pay for a larger seat on a train or for multiple on a plane.

I appreciate and realise it is not as simple as this but slim people can bulk up as easily as larger people can slim down, with enough effort. There are plenty of tall and slim people who manage their weight very well.

 

[zwk500]

Just to pick up on this point, which you do mention very regularly on here.


We cannot help our height or how tall we are. But with respect, surely in the long run it would be considerably cheaper to lose weight rather than pay for a larger seat. Less money spent on food = less need for Standard Premium. There is no shame in being fat, but it can come at a price. Be it having to pay for a larger seat on a train or for multiple on a plane.

I appreciate and realise it is not as simple as this but slim people can bulk up as easily as larger people can slim down, with enough effort. There are plenty of tall and slim people who manage their weight very well.

The point they were making was that people advocating for the removal of SP because it's of no benefit to them aren't appreciating that other people may have different needs and wants, and be willing to pay for it. @Bletchleyite wasn't saying he should get SP for free because he's bigger, or that standard should have better seats, but that they would be willing to pay for the extra comfort.

FWIW, I'm 6'1 and of medium build, and I often find I struggle to fit my legs comfortably in a standard class seat on Avanti and LNER, and on occasion have rubbed shoulders with the person next to me. For me, it's not worth £25, but I could see that somebody bigger than me (with slightly more disposable income) would gladly welcome the chance to get that little bit more room.

 

[Steddenm]

Just to pick up on this point, which you do mention very regularly on here.


We cannot help our height or how tall we are. But with respect, surely in the long run it would be considerably cheaper to lose weight rather than pay for a larger seat. Less money spent on food = less need for Standard Premium. There is no shame in being fat, but it can come at a price. Be it having to pay for a larger seat on a train or for multiple on a plane.

I appreciate and realise it is not as simple as this but slim people can bulk up as easily as larger people can slim down, with enough effort. There are plenty of tall and slim people who manage their weight very well.

Wow. Just wow. Not all larger people are able to slim down as easily as a slim person can bulk up, as you so eloquently put it.

There are medical reasons why some people are larger than others, and also why some people are a lot slimmer than others.

 

[BluePenguin]

Wow. Just wow. Not all larger people are able to slim down as easily as a slim person can bulk up, as you so eloquently put it.

There are medical reasons why some people are larger than others, and also why some people are a lot slimmer than others.

I appreciate that, but should these people be punished and forced to pay for larger and more comfortable seats if their weight cannot be helped? My point is that there should be a minimum level of comfort available to everyone.

There would be uproar if an airline passenger was given the option of either paying for an additional seat or upgrading to a bigger one in 1st class.

The railways stance on the matter seems to be pay for a bigger seat if you need/want one else sit on the floor or stand

 

[Clip]

But some airlines already do ask people who can't fit in one seat to buy a second at a discounted price or if you're tall you can pay for a guaranteed exit seat for extra legroom

I appreciate that, but should these people be punished and forced to pay for larger and more comfortable seats if their weight cannot be helped? My point is that there should be a minimum level of comfort available to everyone.

There would be uproar if an airline passenger was given the option of either paying for an additional seat or upgrading to a bigger one in 1st class.

The railways stance on the matter seems to be pay for a bigger seat if you need/want one else sit on the floor or stand

 

[Mogz]

Just to pick up on this point, which you do mention very regularly on here.


We cannot help our height or how tall we are. But with respect, surely in the long run it would be considerably cheaper to lose weight rather than pay for a larger seat. Less money spent on food = less need for Standard Premium. There is no shame in being fat, but it can come at a price. Be it having to pay for a larger seat on a train or for multiple on a plane.

I appreciate and realise it is not as simple as this but slim people can bulk up as easily as larger people can slim down, with enough effort. There are plenty of tall and slim people who manage their weight very well.

Hmm… any tips on how I could lose height?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just to pick up on this point, which you do mention very regularly on here.


We cannot help our height or how tall we are. But with respect, surely in the long run it would be considerably cheaper to lose weight rather than pay for a larger seat. Less money spent on food = less need for Standard Premium. There is no shame in being fat, but it can come at a price. Be it having to pay for a larger seat on a train or for multiple on a plane.

I appreciate and realise it is not as simple as this but slim people can bulk up as easily as larger people can slim down, with enough effort. There are plenty of tall and slim people who manage their weight very well.

In short, no. Because even if you took all the lockdown lard away, I will still be 6' 4" tall and broad in the shoulders, and so a Standard seat on a Pendolino will still be uncomfortable.

I appreciate that, but should these people be punished and forced to pay for larger and more comfortable seats if their weight cannot be helped? My point is that there should be a minimum level of comfort available to everyone.

There would be uproar if an airline passenger was given the option of either paying for an additional seat or upgrading to a bigger one in 1st class.

The railways stance on the matter seems to be pay for a bigger seat if you need/want one else sit on the floor or stand

One advantage of 80x is that they are specified with quite generous legroom. Unlike Pendolinos I can fit in every seat. Though still better if there is not someone next to me.

I am hoping the Avanti 80x have the same layout but with better seats, this will be very good indeed if so.

The point they were making was that people advocating for the removal of SP because it's of no benefit to them aren't appreciating that other people may have different needs and wants, and be willing to pay for it. @Bletchleyite wasn't saying he should get SP for free because he's bigger, or that standard should have better seats, but that they would be willing to pay for the extra comfort.

FWIW, I'm 6'1 and of medium build, and I often find I struggle to fit my legs comfortably in a standard class seat on Avanti and LNER, and on occasion have rubbed shoulders with the person next to me. For me, it's not worth £25, but I could see that somebody bigger than me (with slightly more disposable income) would gladly welcome the chance to get that little bit more room.

Exactly.

For what it's worth, if the UK had the same First Class pricing as mainland Europe does, i.e. about 1.5x the relevant Standard fares for just the seat and no gimmickry, I would travel First as a matter of course* without even considering Standard. Based on WCML Off Peak Returns, Standard Premium is priced at about that and so is quite attractive to me.

* I won't pay for "sham 1st" e.g. Southern (same as Standard) or LNR (worse than Standard). And definitely not in the 730s - decent 2+2 Kiel seats in Std and 2+2 Fainsa Sophias in 1st?!?!

 

[Mogz]

In short, no. Because even if you took all the lockdown lard away, I will still be 6' 4" tall and broad in the shoulders, and so a Standard seat on a Pendolino will still be uncomfortable.


One advantage of 80x is that they are specified with quite generous legroom. Unlike Pendolinos I can fit in every seat. Though still better if there is not someone next to me.

I am hoping the Avanti 80x have the same layout but with better seats, this will be very good indeed if so.
For what it's worth, if the UK had the same First Class pricing as mainland Europe does, i.e. about 1.5x the relevant Standard fares for just the seat and no gimmickry, I would travel First as a matter of course* without even considering Standard. Based on WCML Off Peak Returns, Standard Premium is priced at about that and so is quite attractive to me.

I second all of that, and for much the same reasons, as a XC Voyager regular sufferer.

 

[mmh]

There would be uproar if an airline passenger was given the option of either paying for an additional seat or upgrading to a bigger one in 1st class.

Err, that is exactly what airlines do. The only difference is you have to ask at check-in / bag drop, rather than on board.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I watched the very busy 12:10 London Euston to Glasgow Central leave Preston today and noticed that the entire train was very well loaded (390127) including G which I'm assuming was Standard Premium and I noticed a few people stood between coaches U and G.

 

[Vespa]

I watched the very busy 12:10 London Euston to Glasgow Central leave Preston today and noticed that the entire train was very well loaded (390127) including G which I'm assuming was Standard Premium and I noticed a few people stood between coaches U and G.

Was first class full ?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Was first class full ?

It seemed like most bays of seats were occupied in the First Class carriages, but I didn't get a great view of the train.

 

[Starmill]

myself and many others are used to a £12 seatfrog with food and drink included for that

I think this is exactly why they're so keen to introduce Standard Premium.

Now: There are no First Class Advance fares (cheapest First Class Birmingham-Glasgow, midweek in September, is £214.90 - Single), and I am not allowed to book or sit in Standard Premium (I might on the day be able to, depending on seats being available and the Train Manager being amenable, but I cannot plan for that), and I do not wish to subject her to a long journey in Standard Class. And this is before taking account of Avanti's total abandonment of the Birmingham/Glasgow service, requiring a change and a wait of up to 40 minutes somewhere en route. So it looks as if we will not be making the trip at all and Avanti will lose the resulting income.

Can't you just book two Standard Premium advances, seated together?

 

[bramling]

Wow. Just wow. Not all larger people are able to slim down as easily as a slim person can bulk up, as you so eloquently put it.

There are medical reasons why some people are larger than others, and also why some people are a lot slimmer than others.

I read it that the point the quoted poster was making is why should someone of larger and/or taller build find themselves in the position of essentially having to pay to upgrade simply to have a tolerably comfortable journey? This doesn’t seem an unreasonable point to me.

 

[Falcon1200]

Can't you just book two Standard Premium advances, seated together?

Yes, at the expense of paying for two tickets instead of one and not using my staff travel privileges !

 

[Starmill]

Yes, at the expense of paying for two tickets instead of one and not using my staff travel privileges !

So your actual issue with the introduction of Standard Premium is that... you don't get completely free travel in it? Hm.

 

[Falcon1200]

So your actual issue with the introduction of Standard Premium is that... you don't get completely free travel in it? Hm.

No, personally I have no desire or need to travel in Standard Premium, however as I explained in my earlier post, when travelling with an elderly relative Avanti's attempt to provide more choice has actually resulted, in our situation, in less. And BTW I make no excuse whatsoever for having the very great benefit of Privilege rail travel, I worked bl**dy hard for 38 years to earn it.

 

[Starmill]

No, personally I have no desire or need to travel in Standard Premium, however as I explained in my earlier post, when travelling with an elderly relative Avanti's attempt to provide more choice has actually resulted, in our situation, in less.

But that's the key isn't it. There isn't actually less choice, it's just that the new cheaper option I've pointed out is not to your preference. But then it wasn't likely to be because people with travel facilities in First are not a part of the market they're targeting.

 

[Falcon1200]

My preference is to travel in First Class with my relative having bought a ticket for them, however as Avanti no longer offer reasonably-priced Advance First Class fares my second preference would be to travel in Standard Premium, again having bought a suitable ticket for my relative. However as Avanti have expressly stated that staff travel facilities are banned in Standard Premium, that option is not open to us either (unless of course we sat in separate coaches, which I will not subject a 91-year old to).

 

[Starmill]

My preference is to travel in First Class with my relative having bought a ticket for them, however as Avanti no longer offer reasonably-priced Advance First Class fares my second preference would be to travel in Standard Premium, again having bought a suitable ticket for my relative. However as Avanti have expressly stated that staff travel facilities are banned in Standard Premium, that option is not open to us either (unless of course we sat in separate coaches, which I will not subject a 91-year old to).

I know. That's what I meant. Your first complaint is that the price of a luxury is too high, your second complaint is that that you cannot travel for free. Your third complaint is that Standard is unsuitable for an elderly passenger.

You don't have less choice than before, you just have more complaints. I'll leave it to other people to decide whether Avanti's offer should be changed to accommodate that. However I would suggest that Avanti probably haven't designed the new service with travel facilities holders in mind.